384 réponses à ce sujet

[xyzmkrysvr]

Mm, don't know. One of my Inquisitors, the Dalish one, will probably want to execute him. Not that death has stopped characters from appearing again in a DA game, mind you, so yours is not a far-fetched guess.

 

More likely, they just won't give you the option to kill him when you first meet him (that's assuming they have a bigger story arc planned for him down the road...) I doubt they would have let you kill characters like Leliana in DA:O if they knew back then what part she was going to play in the vast scheme of things--it just doesn't make sense from a storytelling standpoint to resurrect dead people without any explanation. 

[Han Shot First]

Even if there isn't a Chevalier companion, I hope there is a Chevalier character that presents another image of them besides that of mustache-twirling villainy. They need a Dorian, basically.

[Gervaise]

My point about education is that at present most commoners have to take what is fed them.   They accept the inequality under the law because the nobles and Chevaliers claim Divine Right not just to explain the inequality in their position in life but also their treatment of those less fortunate than themselves.   Trying to get them to change their secular laws would be a uphill struggle as Celene herself admitted.    However, you don't have to, you just point to a law that is already part of the culture and that they use to maintain their lofty position.   You appeal to faith in the Maker, belief in which is probably much stronger among the commoners than it appears to be among the nobles, considering how fast and loose they play with the tenants of the Chant of Light and their wiliness to use a shameful parody of Andraste to make a political point.    The Chant of Light is a splendid indictment of the abuse of power, magical or otherwise.    It does not insist on absolute equality of position in society, it does insist on equality in the way people are treated.    So to murder a noble without cause would be just as bad as murder of a peasant without cause.   Hopefully that would avoid the problems of revolution since all you are asking is for the law of the Maker to be applied across the board without distinction.

 

The reason the Qun appeals to so many elves is that it would appear they would have fairer treatment under its system.    Now may be the Qun are a bit crafty and haven't told them the full implications, because social mobility is just as impossible in the Qun.   You may not have nobles and commoners but you do have the "role" you are assigned to, from which you are not meant to aspire to anything else.    Everything in your life is directed by the triumvirate.     In view of the threat posed by the Qun of infiltrating the ranks of commoners, in particular the elves, this is why in a way it is in the self interest of nobles to improve conditions and education, so they realise that living under the Qun would not necessarily be any better.

[wcholcombe]

Its an interesting question.  However, again you have to consider the times and the social context.  It is the midevil period of time in Thedas, again the true idea of basic human or elven rights doesn't truly exist in a world where people are killed on a daily basis as part of the everyday events of the world.  Also, we ourselves play characters that kill other characters because we believe we are right and they are wrong.  Sometimes it is self defense, but often it is entirely based upon the idea of what we believe.

 

Right or wrong is a moral/social construct.  Orlais and the Chevaliers aren't really that different then any other area of Thedas that we know about.  In Fereldan it is illegal to kill a human to protect an elf, in Tevinter elvish slaves are at times used as blood batteries, life stinks for most beings elvish, dwarf, or human who hold the status of commoner/casteless. 

 

Someone brought up slavery during the antebellum south being wrong.  That would depend on the time period and the people in question, even the abolitionists of the north by and large didn't consider african americans to be equal to whites.  Lincoln himself favored sending them back to Africa as did the overwhelming majority of abolitionists at the time. None of those concepts would be considered good today, but they were the pinacle of good when it came to the slave question in the early-mid 1800s in America.

 

I judge a person by their actions within the world they live and were raised in.  The Holocaust was roundly and uniformly criticized or abhorred within the timeframe of its world when it was discovered, however, similar actions to jewish and gypsy populations on much smaller scales throughout europe were considered business as usual when those groups got to big in an area just 50-60 years previous.

[wcholcombe]

My point about education is that at present most commoners have to take what is fed them.   They accept the inequality under the law because the nobles and Chevaliers claim Divine Right not just to explain the inequality in their position in life but also their treatment of those less fortunate than themselves.   Trying to get them to change their secular laws would be a uphill struggle as Celene herself admitted.    However, you don't have to, you just point to a law that is already part of the culture and that they use to maintain their lofty position.   You appeal to faith in the Maker, belief in which is probably much stronger among the commoners than it appears to be among the nobles, considering how fast and loose they play with the tenants of the Chant of Light and their wiliness to use a shameful parody of Andraste to make a political point.    The Chant of Light is a splendid indictment of the abuse of power, magical or otherwise.    It does not insist on absolute equality of position in society, it does insist on equality in the way people are treated.    So to murder a noble without cause would be just as bad as murder of a peasant without cause.   Hopefully that would avoid the problems of revolution since all you are asking is for the law of the Maker to be applied across the board without distinction.

 

The reason the Qun appeals to so many elves is that it would appear they would have fairer treatment under its system.    Now may be the Qun are a bit crafty and haven't told them the full implications, because social mobility is just as impossible in the Qun.   You may not have nobles and commoners but you do have the "role" you are assigned to, from which you are not meant to aspire to anything else.    Everything in your life is directed by the triumvirate.     In view of the threat posed by the Qun of infiltrating the ranks of commoners, in particular the elves, this is why in a way it is in the self interest of nobles to improve conditions and education, so they realise that living under the Qun would not necessarily be any better.

Actually of the countries we have seen the inner working of, Divine Right doesn't exist in either Orlais or Ferelden.  In Ferelden the aristocracy so to speak is tied in large part to land ownership.  You are a Bann or such because your family has historically owned the largest portion of land in that area. The royal family of Ferelden is all tied to the first family to unify the lands of Ferelden by war, divine right doesn't exist.

 

In Orlais, it is all built on power and the game.  Celene wasn't even thought to be a candidate to be Empress until she outmanouvered Gaspard(the odds on favorite at the time) and the others who were in line to claim the throne.

 

Never once is it mentioned in either of those countries that they rule or are nobility because the Maker said they were.  Especially not in Orlais.  If Divine Right existed in Orlais, the Great Game couldn't function as it does.

 

As for social mobility, not certain about Ferelden, but there are references in Orlais to elvish merchants, elves owning warehouses and property, and even elves having their own servants.

 

Now, I will also point out what I find interesting about the perception most have of Orlais is based off of Ferelden based perspectives from DAO.  I am certain some of those pro ferelden/anti Orlais viewpoints will be accurate, but knowing Bioware and their penchant in DA for having in game character perspectives not always be accurate, I can see there being quite a bit about Orlais that isn't as it was presented in DAO.

[Gervaise]

Is it really illegal in Ferelden to kill a human just to protect an elf?    Was that in Origins?    I thought the city elf was in trouble for taking the law into their own hands, not that it was illegal period to kill Vaughan, even if say one of his friends had stepped in to protect the elf.     It really does suck being an elf in Thedas.

[Nuclear]

I thought the city elf was in trouble for taking the law into their own hands, not that it was illegal period to kill Vaughan, even if say one of his friends had stepped in to protect the elf. 

Considering Vaughan is a noble and the son of the then Arl of Denerim, of course it was illegal. A human would've been sent to death for that.

[Gervaise]

Divine Right referred to social mobility, not the right to rule other people of your own class.    It was in a codex in Origins, specifically after you talk to the Orlesian girl in the market place.     So you see the nobles use Divine Right to keep people in the gutter and to justify their treatment of those in the gutter but they can ignore it when dealing with other nobles since they all have the same Divine Right.   This very convenient way of viewing things allows them to participate in all the murder and intrigue that they do.  The system would probably exist anyway but they use the Maker to reinforce the inequality and their disregard of the moral imperatives of the Chant.

 

That is why anyone wanting to move up the social scale has no chance.   It is punishable by death to pretend to be of noble birth.   Hence Michel's dilemma even without the complication of his elven mother.

[LobselVith8]

Is it really illegal in Ferelden to kill a human just to protect an elf?    Was that in Origins?    I thought the city elf was in trouble for taking the law into their own hands, not that it was illegal period to kill Vaughan, even if say one of his friends had stepped in to protect the elf.     It really does suck being an elf in Thedas.

 

Yes, it's illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf in Ferelden, according to the Dragon Age tabletop RPG, pg. 106-107.

[Mistic]

I judge a person by their actions within the world they live and were raised in.  The Holocaust was roundly and uniformly criticized or abhorred within the timeframe of its world when it was discovered, however, similar actions to jewish and gypsy populations on much smaller scales throughout europe were considered business as usual when those groups got to big in an area just 50-60 years previous.

 

That is true. However, good knowledge of history must be taken into account, since general opinion means nothing if there's already a sizeable minority claiming that what they are doing are wrong. Not to talk about "this was normal in this country and age" while the rest of the countries at that same age were condemning it. Actions must be judged by the point of view of their contemporaries, and I agree, but those who claim that tend to forget that said contemporaries were not walking stereotypes.

 

In Thedosian terms, claiming that slavery in Tevinter is normal is worthless since the rest of Thedas clearly sees it as a horrible practice (even if most of them think that elves are inferior to humans, they still think that they don't deserve slavery). The same can be said of chevaliers: their privileges may be normal in Orlais, but we meet a girl in the market of Denerim reviling the system and we do know that Fereldans in general consider them unacceptable.

[xyzmkrysvr]

I'm loving all of the branching discussions this thread has instigated - there's some fascinating stuff being talked about that I hadn't really considered!

 

Even if there isn't a Chevalier companion, I hope there is a Chevalier character that presents another image of them besides that of mustache-twirling villainy. They need a Dorian, basically.

 

You're right in that it would be nice to encounter a chevalier that isn't a "mustache-twirling villain" but it would be interesting to meet one that isn't an apologist. Someone who truly believes the chevalier code is righteous, regardless of having to kill a city elf or two during their initiation. Shale was a great example of a companion that had disdain for another race ("squishy" humans) and had no remorse about killing some of them, but she was still likable. Not all of our companions should be goody-two-shoes. 

 

 

Now, I will also point out what I find interesting about the perception most have of Orlais is based off of Ferelden based perspectives from DAO.  I am certain some of those pro ferelden/anti Orlais viewpoints will be accurate, but knowing Bioware and their penchant in DA for having in game character perspectives not always be accurate, I can see there being quite a bit about Orlais that isn't as it was presented in DAO.

 

I'd love to learn more about Orlais--it seems like a fascinating country. Heck, even though harlequins (http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Harlequin) were only in Mark of the Assassin for a brief moment, I thought they were one of the coolest enemies we've ever faced! 

[wcholcombe]

Is it really illegal in Ferelden to kill a human just to protect an elf?    Was that in Origins?    I thought the city elf was in trouble for taking the law into their own hands, not that it was illegal period to kill Vaughan, even if say one of his friends had stepped in to protect the elf.     It really does suck being an elf in Thedas.

 

wiki from the tabletop RPG sourcebook:

 

"There are no laws regulating personal behavior such as bearing arms, drinking, gambling and prostitution.^[31] Similarly, local prejudices and violence against non-human residents—notably alienage elves—often go unpunished. In part this is pragmatism, as Ferelden king's law states that killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime"

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Ferelden

[wcholcombe]

That is true. However, good knowledge of history must be taken into account, since general opinion means nothing if there's already a sizeable minority claiming that what they are doing are wrong. Not to talk about "this was normal in this country and age" while the rest of the countries at that same age were condemning it. Actions must be judged by the point of view of their contemporaries, and I agree, but those who claim that tend to forget that said contemporaries were not walking stereotypes.

 

In Thedosian terms, claiming that slavery in Tevinter is normal is worthless since the rest of Thedas clearly sees it as a horrible practice (even if most of them think that elves are inferior to humans, they still think that they don't deserve slavery). The same can be said of chevaliers: their privileges may be normal in Orlais, but we meet a girl in the market of Denerim reviling the system and we do know that Fereldans in general consider them unacceptable.

I agree by and large- however by and large most countries in Thedas to our knowlege have no issue with human soldiers or nobility killing elves.  I agree that slavery isn't accepted, but I can't say that the Chevaliers are roundly disliked throughout thedas. As I said you have to remember in DAO we go the Pro Ferelden-everything about orlais is evil and horrible perspective.  As I said, I fully expect to be presented with perspective in DAI from the Orlesian side that fully conflict with what was presented in DAO. We have already seen this in Masked Empire. In DAO they made it sound like the alienages in Ferelden were much better then the ones in Orlais.  In Masked Empire, the elves in Halamshiral specifically mention that they had heard about elves having to live in walled off alienages in Ferelden and possibly in parts of Orlais, while the alienage in Val Royeaux is presented more as a slum but no mention of walls or made, the elves aren't all treated as slaves, and contrary to what is said in DAO, from the presentation in Masked Empire there is plenty of sunlight reaching the ground throughout the alienage area.

 

Perspectives and reports vary. I fully would expect Ferelden's to paint Orlais as the epicenter of all evil in the world with their recent histories, but it will be interesting to see how this conflicts with the orlais perspective in DAI.

[SgtSteel91]

I wonder is we can become an honorary Chevalier, like that is how you unlock the Champion Specialization.

[Gervaise]

First there was World of Thedas, now there is also a table top RPG - not seen it on this side of the pond incidentally - I hope all this additional law is going to appear in game for those of us who tend to base their world view on the games they have played and the codices within it.     Still, thank you for the information.    I presume the law doesn't apply to Grey Wardens, otherwise it amuses me to think how many times King Alistair broke his own law defending his elven friend and colleague.  

[xyzmkrysvr]

I wonder is we can become an honorary Chevalier, like that is how you unlock the Champion Specialization.

 

Highly unlikely, seeing as chevaliers are all Orlesian nobles and I find it hard to believe they would give a Dalish warrior the honors. And judging from a lot of comments in this thread, it seems like most people hate the chevaliers, so I doubt they would want to join their ranks. I think it would be cool, though! 

 

First there was World of Thedas, now there is also a table top RPG - not seen it on this side of the pond incidentally - I hope all this additional law is going to appear in game for those of us who tend to base their world view on the games they have played and the codices within it.     Still, thank you for the information.    I presume the law doesn't apply to Grey Wardens, otherwise it amuses me to think how many times King Alistair broke his own law defending his elven friend and colleague.  

 

I had no idea what "World of Thedas" was until a minute ago, when I Googled it... has anyone read it?? Is it worth the money to learn more about the lore? 

[wcholcombe]

World of Thedas is pretty good if you really like lore.

 

 

Grey Warden or otherwise, the Hero of Ferelden and company broke most laws and were actually outlaws at one point so.

[Solas]

I'm glad. From what we know, I'm not fond of chevaliers.

[xyzmkrysvr]

I'm glad. From what we know, I'm not fond of chevaliers.

 

Haha well that's not surprising considering you're so pro-elf but that's kind of my point: Bioware is renowned for creating complex companions that are constantly surprising us. I NEVER thought I would like Sten as much as I did when I first met him (or Shale, for the matter) but because Bioware has such amazing writers, they were able to totally change my mind. The best characters are often the ones that have a huge loyal fan base and a huge group of haters (see Alistair, Anders)... The chevaliers just seem like the perfect group to feature a companion from, seeing as the game takes place in Orlais and the chevaliers are all about protecting Orlais.  

[LobselVith8]

First there was World of Thedas, now there is also a table top RPG - not seen it on this side of the pond incidentally - I hope all this additional law is going to appear in game for those of us who tend to base their world view on the games they have played and the codices within it.     Still, thank you for the information.    I presume the law doesn't apply to Grey Wardens, otherwise it amuses me to think how many times King Alistair broke his own law defending his elven friend and colleague.  

 

I'd like to think King Alistair overturned that law, considering he's willing to flaunt tradition by giving an elf a place at the royal court (something even his father was unwilling to do).

[Gervaise]

Well apparently not if the table top RPG postdates Alistair getting the throne.    May be it is something he (or Anora) will reveal when we get to meet them.   Since I'm playing an elf first run through it is something that I would be interested to raise with him.

[LobselVith8]

Well apparently not if the table top RPG postdates Alistair getting the throne.    May be it is something he (or Anora) will reveal when we get to meet them.   Since I'm playing an elf first run through it is something that I would be interested to raise with him.

 

As will I, since I suspect my elven Inquisitor and his cohorts will be violating that law quite frequently.

[wcholcombe]

Well apparently not if the table top RPG postdates Alistair getting the throne.    May be it is something he (or Anora) will reveal when we get to meet them.   Since I'm playing an elf first run through it is something that I would be interested to raise with him.

The tabletop released when DAO first came out.  So I believe it predates DAO.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Chivalier as companion in Inquisitor party does not make any sense

 

1)they are just a ordinary guards/servants of Orlais nobles and royal dynasty who are inherit them as bards

 

2)they are useless against deamons, monsters and templars, mages

 

3)they are one of the worst Thedas warriors and even GW mostly do not recruit them as with Orlais Templars