384 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

There was less than 100 Wardens in all of Ferelden. At Ostagar they represented no more than a tiny detachment in a battle of thousands. Short of getting a lucky shot at the archdemon they were not going to have any impact on the outcome of the battle either way. And in any case, their destruction was entirely rooted in Loghain's betrayal, not in any lack of fighting prowess on the part of the Wardens. They were swarmed by hordes of darkspawn when Loghain took the rest of the army and abandoned the portion Cailan had led in an assault. (including the Wardens)

 

In Awakening you are also only dealing with a tiny detachment of Wardens. It was about a dozen if I remember correctly, hardly enough to have held the Vigil alone against hordes of darkspawn coming from within thanks to tunnels leading to the Deep Roads. And they were attacked on the very day they were handed control of the Keep, which means they did not yet have time to inspect it or fortify it. (as the player's Warden-Commander later does) 

 

With DA:I we don't yet know the circumstances yet, so its a bit too soon to draw any conclusions from that.

 

Also keep in mind that some of the most feared warriors in our own history have lost battles, even at the apex of their power. The Romans lost battles. So did the Spartans. Name any great power from history and that power has lost the occasional battle, campaign, or war. Two notable examples:

 

Battle of the Fetters

 

Battle of Cannae

 

That the Grey Wardens aren't undefeated doesn't necessarily diminish their reputation for martial prowess.

Well we can seek excuses if we want but as i said they were crushed 3 times and when i can pass with ostagar there was no army in daa until the end of the game they fall for not so big numbers of darkspawn.In fact as far wardens didn't show anything impressive well only thing would be warden keep from dlc and still they held becuase they had demons help.Peoples tend think that the wardens are heroes from fairy tales what isn't truth same for their status as best fighters as far we saw only them dying like nothing (and we still are) and and 0 success.

[Han Shot First]

Well we can seek excuses if we want but as i said they were crushed 3 times and when i can pass with ostagar there was no army in daa until the end of the game they fall for not so big numbers of darkspawn.In fact as far wardens didn't show anything impressive well only thing would be warden keep from dlc and still they held becuase they had demons help.Peoples tend think that the wardens are heroes from fairy tales what isn't truth same for their status as best fighters as far we saw only them dying like nothing (and we still are) and and 0 success.

 

I can name well over 3 battles that the Romans lost at their height. Does that mean that they weren't the most proficient army Europe, the Near East, or North Africa had seen between about 300 B.C. and 200 A.D.?

[Maria Caliban]

BioWare tends to build up its heroes by making others incompetent. Why am I the only SPECTRE in the galaxy that's noticed the Reaper threat? Why is the Council so utterly ineffective?

Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

Why are all the Grey Warden's wiped out and unable to cross the border? Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

They're doing the same thing with Inquisition's marketing. We've been told that you become the Inquisitor because no one else is trying to solve the problem. You'd think tears in the sky that demons pour out of would be just the thing to bring people together, but no.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I can name well over 3 battles that the Romans lost at their height. Does that mean that they weren't the most proficient army Europe, the Near East, or North Africa had seen between about 300 B.C. and 200 A.D.?

Well you keep talking how great warden are but i keep telling you i don't care about Romans they had a lot success wardens were shown only as dying mooks.As far as i said 0 success and 4 big failures.Pretty much their greatness is shown only in cheap stories that paint them as i said knights on white horse.

 

BioWare tends to build up its heroes by making others incompetent. Why am I the only SPECTRE in the galaxy that's noticed the Reaper threat? Why is the Council so utterly ineffective?

Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

Why are all the Grey Warden's wiped out and unable to cross the border? Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

They're doing the same thing with Inquisition's marketing. We've been told that you become the Inquisitor because no one else is trying to solve the problem. You'd think tears in the sky that demons pour out of would be just the thing to bring people together, but no.

1.Because no one talked with sovereign?politics?

 

3.Becuase loghain thought that grey wardens are with orlais and needed a scapegoat?

[Wulfram]

It's not the defeats that are the problem for the Wardens, but the lack of victories. Aside from those that can be attributed to the Hero of Ferelden, who never really had a huge amount to do with the wider order.

They look a lot better when Awakening has an Orlesian Warden protagonist, but otherwise they basically spend the whole time dying or getting rescued.

[Han Shot First]

Well you keep talking how great warden are but i keep telling you i don't care about Romans they had a lot success wardens were shown only as dying mooks.As far as i said 0 success and 4 big failures.Pretty much their greatness is shown only in cheap stories that paint them as i said knights on white horse.

 

1.Because no one talked with sovereign?politics?

 

3.Becuase loghain thought that grey wardens are with orlais and needed a scapegoat?

 

0 successes?

 

Sure, if you don't count the five Blights they defeated.

[leaguer of one]

I'm glad we don't have a Chevalier companion. I'd have to either imprison or kill them on principle. 

Do you know how many companions in DA you would also imprison or Kill on principle based on your standards?

[leaguer of one]

0 successes?

 

Sure, if you don't count the five Blights they defeated.

Kommander's being arrogant again.

[thats1evildude]

BioWare tends to build up its heroes by making others incompetent. Why am I the only SPECTRE in the galaxy that's noticed the Reaper threat? Why is the Council so utterly ineffective?

 

You say that as though this wasn't the norm in fiction. How many fictional disasters would be averted if the police believed the hero about the villain's plot or parents listened to the children about the monsters in their house/living next door?

[leaguer of one]

 

You say that as though this wasn't the norm in fiction. How many fictional disasters would be averted if the police believed the hero about the villain's plot or parents listened to the children about the monsters in their house/living next door?

That was just Mass effect,

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do you know how many companions in DA you would also imprison or Kill on principle based on your standards?

Let's see.

 

Origins

Alistair had no such background

Morigan has only killed in defense of herself as far as we know

Dog is a dog

Leliana does regret what she has done

Sten is the same as Leliana

Wynne has no suck background

Zevran regrets the death of a person he knows was innocent

Oghren regrets the murder he committed

Loghain I kill in half my playthroughs and make him serve as a Warden, thus losing everything he had in life, in the others.

Shale accidentally killed the mage

 

Awakening

Anders has no suck background

Oghren is still the same as what I put earlier

Nathaniel has no such background(not for lack of trying, mind you)

Sigrun has no such background that we know of

Velanna comes to regret killing the humans

Justice has no such background

 

DA2

Bethany/Carver has no such background

Aveline has no such background

Varric has no such background

Anders we don't know of his background since he doesn't share the truth

Isabela we don't know of her background since she doesn't share the truth

Merrill has no such background

Fenris regrets the innocent lives(Fog Warriors) he has taken

Sebastian has no such background

Tallis we don't know her background other that what she tells us. 

 

So I'm not seeing how I'd kill or imprison any by my standards other than Loghain, who I do kill in half my playthroughs. 

[leaguer of one]

Let's see.

 

Origins

Alistair had no such background

Morigan has only killed in defense of herself as far as we know

Dog is a dog

Leliana does regret what she has done

Sten is the same as Leliana

Wynne has no suck background

Zevran regrets the death of a person he knows was innocent

Oghren regrets the murder he committed

Loghain I kill in half my playthroughs and make him serve as a Warden, thus losing everything he had in life, in the others.

Shale accidentally killed the mage

 

Awakening

Anders has no suck background

Oghren is still the same as what I put earlier

Nathaniel has no such background(not for lack of trying, mind you)

Sigrun has no such background that we know of

Velanna comes to regret killing the humans

Justice has no such background

 

DA2

Bethany/Carver has no such background

Aveline has no such background

Varric has no such background

Anders we don't know of his background since he doesn't share the truth

Isabela we don't know of her background since she doesn't share the truth

Merrill has no such background

Fenris regrets the innocent lives(Fog Warriors) he has taken

Sebastian has no such background

Tallis we don't know her background other that what she tells us. 

 

So I'm not seeing how I'd kill or imprison any by my standards other than Loghain, who I do kill in half my playthroughs. 

You ignoring their actions in the game. Regardless,my point is that you would not give a  a Chevalier companion a chance. What this person regret what they done or can be made to regret it? What it they were in a do or die situation?

 

My point is that before you judge you need to understand the person your judging. You can't do that if you kill them on the spot when you first meet them. You would not kill or imprison the darker companions because you took the time to understand their feelings about what they did and that they regretted it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You ignoring their actions in the game. Regardless,my point is that you would not give a  a Chevalier companion a chance. What this person regret what they done or can be made to regret it? What it they were in a do or die situation?

 

My point is that before you judge you need to understand the person your judging. You can't do that if you kill them on the spot when you first meet them. You would not kill or imprison the darker companions because you took the time to understand their feelings about what they did and that they regretted it.

I would always give them a chance to explain themselves, like I did with companions like Sten and Zevran. After that, I will enact what I see as proper judgement. If said Chevalier companion was similar to Dorian in the "I hate what my group has become" and regrets their actions, I wouldn't kill or imprison them. But if they are approving of or even meh on what the Chevaliers do, I wouldn't hesitate a second. 

[leaguer of one]

I would always give them a chance to explain themselves, like I did with companions like Sten and Zevran. After that, I will enact what I see as proper judgement. If said Chevalier companion was similar to Dorian in the "I hate what my group has become" and regrets their actions, I wouldn't kill or imprison them. But if they are approving of or even meh on what the Chevaliers do, I wouldn't hesitate a second. 

Ok then. I can agree with that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

0 successes?

 

Sure, if you don't count the five Blights they defeated.

Blights were whole world problem wardens were only part of forces small part of it every nation (well most at least) took part in it so well wardens were small part of it. And not 5 pretty much they didn't do crap to stop 5 blight as far i recall ferelden with other forces and the warden did all job.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ok then. I can agree with that.

Glad we came to an agreement.

[The Hierophant]

The Masked Empire actually made me like the order even after all the skullduggery i've heard about them from The Stolen Throne and DAO.

I wonder if DAI's Champion spec is the generic equivalent of Chevalier?

[SnakeCode]

The Masked Empire actually made me like the order even after all the skullduggery i've heard about them from The Stolen Throne and DAO.

I wonder if DAI's Champion spec is the generic equivalent of Chevalier?

Yup, that's the thing. A lot of people's views on the Chevaliers are coloured by what they have been told by Fereldans. Those people who just so happen to historically be the enemies of the Orlesians. We've mostly been told what the Chevaliers are/do by biased sources. People who don't like them aren't going to give you a glowing character review.

[The Hierophant]

Yup, that's the thing. A lot of people's views on the Chevaliers are coloured by what they have been told by Fereldans. Those people who just so happen to historically be the enemies of the Orlesians. We've mostly been told what the Chevaliers are/do by biased sources. People who don't like them aren't going to give you a glowing character review.

Exactly. A few bad apples don't comprise the whole.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yup, that's the thing. A lot of people's views on the Chevaliers are coloured by what they have been told by Fereldans. Those people who just so happen to historically be the enemies of the Orlesians. We've mostly been told what the Chevaliers are/do by biased sources. People who don't like them aren't going to give you a glowing character review.

Hey, I gave them the benefit of the doubt when I started reading The Masked Empire. They just dug themselves a deeper hole in that book. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Exactly. A few bad apples don't comprise the whole.

Yeah tevinter empire...

Pretty much orlais is corrupted society that promotes corruption (so yeah few bad apples more like garden of bad apples).Pretty much even orlesians seems confirm that not only fereldens.  

[Xilizhra]

Yup, that's the thing. A lot of people's views on the Chevaliers are coloured by what they have been told by Fereldans. Those people who just so happen to historically be the enemies of the Orlesians. We've mostly been told what the Chevaliers are/do by biased sources. People who don't like them aren't going to give you a glowing character review.

It has been said that the true measure of a man may be taken by how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.

[In Exile]

BioWare tends to build up its heroes by making others incompetent. Why am I the only SPECTRE in the galaxy that's noticed the Reaper threat? Why is the Council so utterly ineffective?

Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

Why are all the Grey Warden's wiped out and unable to cross the border? Because their lack makes the hero look better/more important.

They're doing the same thing with Inquisition's marketing. We've been told that you become the Inquisitor because no one else is trying to solve the problem. You'd think tears in the sky that demons pour out of would be just the thing to bring people together, but no.

Bioware isn't very good at showing excellence in a field of competence. That's hard to write generally, but Bioware in particular is pretty shy about a story like that. 

[In Exile]

Yup, that's the thing. A lot of people's views on the Chevaliers are coloured by what they have been told by Fereldans. Those people who just so happen to historically be the enemies of the Orlesians. We've mostly been told what the Chevaliers are/do by biased sources. People who don't like them aren't going to give you a glowing character review.

 

My dislike of Chevaliers pretty much comes from (a) the one account we have of the Orlesian woman in the Denerim market and (ii) the initiation we see in Masked Empire.

 

I didn't find out about the Denerim market dialogue until Masked Empire came out. Before that, I thought the Chevaliers sounded like a pretty interesting knight order. 

[The Hierophant]

Hey, I gave them the benefit of the doubt when I started reading The Masked Empire. They just dug themselves a deeper hole in that book.

You mean Halamshiral?

Yeah tevinter empire...
Pretty much orlais is corrupted society that promotes corruption (so yeah few bad apples more like garden of bad apples).Pretty much even orlesians seems confirm that not only fereldens.

Comparing the nobility who's morality is all over the place to a honor bound military organization, when a few of the latter's members who committed crimes that are frowned upon by said organization is fubar. I guess the actions of a few determines the whole? Right?