102 réponses à ce sujet

[NM_Che56]

besides, Isabela looks nothing like a Spaniard or Italian woman. She looks south american

 

...but a large portion of the South American population has European ancestry.  Particularly Spanish and Italian.

[NM_Che56]

CAPITALIZED FOR EMPHASIS ONLY AND NOT ME SHOUTING ANGRILY:

 

THANK YOU FOR NOT BASHING ME FOR BEING IGNORANT OF OTHER BIOWARE GAMES.

[andar91]

I know that Isabela was always intended to be black, as, I believe, was Duncan - they're both Rivaini. And I'm pretty sure they've stated that Rivaini skin tones tend to be olive (a la Mediterranean) to dark brown (like Vivienne).

 

The problem was that the old engines didn't do dark skin very well at all. So black characters looked mostly...light brown. Mediterranean, just like you said.

 

So I think the idea of Isabela being black representation is sort of problematic. I understand there were technical limitations at play and she was, again, always intended to be black (her writer has said this multiple times, though I don't have quotes on hand), but it doesn't count for much if nobody can tell.

 

That said, it also isn't as if there aren't light-skinned black people, I suppose, but I still think Isabella looks more...Latino or Italian or something.

[Aolbain]

My (not very educated) guess? Black people, and women, have - even if they've been underrepresented in media, oppressed and marginalized - always been there in North American society. Homosexuality, on the other hand have generally been kept very carefully locked in until these last few decades. Therefore, to a game journalist (who as a group are no great experts on race, sexuality or gender) the inclusion of a openly homosexual man as a main character will be seen as a much bigger deal then that of a black woman. .

[NM_Che56]

I know that Isabela was always intended to be black, as, I believe, was Duncan - they're both Rivaini. And I'm pretty sure they've stated that Rivaini skin tones tend to be olive (a la Mediterranean) to dark brown (like Vivienne).

 

The problem was that the old engines didn't do dark skin very well at all. So black characters looked mostly...light brown. Mediterranean, just like you said.

 

So I think the idea of Isabela being black representation is sort of problematic. I understand there were technical limitations at play and she was, again, always intended to be black (her writer has said this multiple times, though I don't have quotes on hand), but it doesn't count for much if nobody can tell.

 

That said, it also isn't as if there aren't light-skinned black people, I suppose, but I still think Isabella looks more...Latino or Italian or something.

 

Duncan black? *squinting* I don't see it.  Sorry. LOL  I just don't see it.  Yeah, it could be the engine, but I can only go by what's rendered.  Not "intended".

[The Hierophant]

True, but Isabela's country is like a European analogy. Her name is very much in line with someone from Spain or Italy.

Again, it's a stretch.

There is no stretch. iirc DG himself considers Rivaini like Vivienne, Isabela and Duncan black. I don't know if isabela is mixed but that doesn't make her any less so.

Plus Rivain seems more like a mix between Southern Spain after it was conquered, and West, North African cultures when judging by the what little images we've seen from the comics or codices we've read.

[andar91]

I also think it's fair (and necessary) to consider intersectionality: http://en.wikipedia....tersectionality

 

No identity marker exists in isolation of the others. I for instance, am: male, white, gay, able-bodied, able-minded, American, and fat (to name a few). My sexuality and body type work against me, but I have plenty of privilege because of my gender and race. 

 

I can say from personal experience that the gay community, for example, is not very good about including or representing PoC (People of Color) or people with different body types (they're freaking horrible, here, read this: http://www.buzzfeed....nless-youre-fat ). Look at the movies in Netflix's gay and lesbian section (even the title omits bisexual people, trans people, genderqueer people, and so on). The vast majority of movies deal with gay white men. So oppressed communities often forget that other groups are oppressed too.

 

Same with journalism, perhaps. Both Dorian and Vivienne are significant because of their identities (in our world (black, gay) as well as in (First Enchanter, Tevinter Magister). However, Dorian is also male and white, which would give him privilege in the real world over Vivienne, a black woman.

 

 

Quote: "Duncan black? *squinting* I don't see it.  Sorry. LOL  I just don't see it.  Yeah, it could be the engine, but I can only go by what's rendered.  Not "intended".

 

 

 

This is exactly my point, yeah. Intention doesn't count for much (Gaider said the same thing in his GDC talk). It's nice that they intended it, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding (or product, as it were).

[NM_Che56]

My (not very educated) guess? Black people, and women, have - even if they've been underrepresented in media, oppressed and marginalized - always been there in North American society. Homosexuality, on the other hand have generally been kept very carefully locked in until these last few decades. Therefore, to a game journalist (who as a group are no great experts on race, sexuality or gender) the inclusion of a openly homosexual character as a main character will be seen as a much bigger deal then that of a black women.

 

Hmmm...I see where you're coming from, but I don't quite agree.

The 60's were the height of the Civil Rights Movement.  In it's wake came other movements that were empowered by it, including the LGBT movement. 

 

Now, that being said, blacks are still marginalized (obviously to a lesser degree today compared to the 1960's).  People still have very sterotypical views about black people. 

 

I look at TV commericals in the US and they always show black women as being "sassy" and throwing terms around like "Guurl" while wagging their heads or dancing.  My wife and I laugh and roll our eyes when we see this.  Or they have to look and act like chick in rap videos...grr.

[NM_Che56]

There is no stretch. iirc DG himself considers Rivaini like Vivienne, Isabela and Duncan black. I don't know if isabela is mixed but that doesn't make her any less so.

Plus Rivain seems more like a mix between Southern Spain after it was conquered, and West, North African cultures when judging by the what little images we've seen from the comcs or codices we've read.

 

Look a Vivienne then look at Isabela and Duncan.

 

I'm sorry, but it's a stretch.  This coming from a man of mixed European and African heritage.

[NM_Che56]

 

I also think it's fair (and necessary) to consider intersectionality: http://en.wikipedia....tersectionality

 

No identity marker exists in isolation of the others. I for instance, am: male, white, gay, able-bodied, able-minded, American, and fat (to name a few). My sexuality and body type work against me, but I have plenty of privilege because of my gender and race. 

 

I can say from personal experience that the gay community, for example, is not very good about including or representing PoC (People of Color) or people with different body types (they're freaking horrible, here, read this: http://www.buzzfeed....nless-youre-fat ). Look at the movies in Netflix's gay and lesbian section (even the title omits bisexual people, trans people, genderqueer people, and so on). The vast majority of movies deal with gay white men. So oppressed communities often forget that other groups are oppressed too.

 

Same with journalism, perhaps. Both Dorian and Vivienne are significant because of their identities (in our world (black, gay) as well as in (First Enchanter, Tevinter Magister). However, Dorian is also male and white, which would give him privilege in the real world over Vivienne, a black woman.

 

 

Quote: "Duncan black? *squinting* I don't see it.  Sorry. LOL  I just don't see it.  Yeah, it could be the engine, but I can only go by what's rendered.  Not "intended".

 

 

 

This is exactly my point, yeah. Intention doesn't count for much (Gaider said the same thing in his GDC talk). It's nice that they intended it, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding (or product, as it were).

 

Where is the like button?! I can't find it to like this.

[andar91]

Where is the like button?! I can't find it to like this.

 

Should be at the bottom lol.

[NM_Che56]

Should be at the bottom lol.

 

It's there now...what did you do (*side eye*)...?

[ladyiolanthe]

It's there now...what did you do (*side eye*)...?

 

You kind of have to leave the thread then come back to it, for both the 'like' and 'edit' buttons to magically appear.   Took me a bit to figure it out, too.

[Aolbain]

Hmmm...I see where you're coming from, but I don't quite agree.

The 60's were the height of the Civil Rights Movement.  In it's wake came other movements that were empowered by it, including the LGBT movement. 

 

Now, that being said, blacks are still marginalized (obviously to a lesser degree today compared to the 1960's).  People still have very sterotypical views about black people. 

 

I look at TV commericals in the US and they always show black women as being "sassy" and throwing terms around like "Guurl" while wagging their heads or dancing.  My wife and I laugh and roll our eyes when we see this.  Or they have to look and act like chick in rap videos...grr.

 

I'm not saying it's a perfect analysis, I'm mostly trying to see it from the point of view of the game journalists.

[Han Shot First]

Look a Vivienne then look at Isabela and Duncan.

 

I'm sorry, but it's a stretch.  This coming from a man of mixed European and African heritage.

 

I agree with Che.

 

Both Duncan and Isabela look far more European than African. I don't think it is inaccurate to say that Vivienne is Dragon Age's first black character.

[byeshoe]

Rivani is where most black people in thedas are, right?
i remember reading that somewhere but Isabella and Duncan look more arabian to me
http://previous.pres...20172310280.jpg
http://38.media.tumb...xobqgo1_500.jpg
so cute.
duncan
http://img4.allvoice...oo-handsome.jpg
http://www.slate.com...le920-large.jpg
hot, sexy, cool

it could also be the lightning in the previous Dragon age games :] they sucked,...badly i might add. 
Vivienne's ethnicity is a meh to me, I don't care about black people being in games..I mean, there is a connection of her being like a sister to my inquisitor but that's about it. I'm not all...super happy about it XD Neither is my brother BUT! i guarantee there are others who'll nod their heads. Overall It depends on where the interest is at OP. the need for more blacks in videogames, I don't hear it.. years ago in the anime industry the need for blacks in the shows was loud and clear. I'm sure you've heard "black people watch anime too, what because i'm black i don't watch anime?" blah blah. Nowadays there's a whole bunch of variety characters in anime that makes everyone in the end happy.(including gays, trans, all of the orientations!) In videogames it's also pretty common for a black person to be in something be it small/ or they have a major role so it's not a shock factor, was it ever a big deal when a black character was introduce tho? I'm tryna remember,I mostly got happy when i could play as a girl, (lola bunny in that space jam game) instead of my own color.

For the gay community, there is hardly any main character, or even small characters who are gay so the community is getting loud about it. Dorian being gay is a big deal because it's very rare for any game to have a gay character in it. (not Boylove games, those don't count) Arcade Gannon from fallout(minor role), Tony from grand theft auto(large roll), and Bill from the last of us (large role) these are gay characters that I know of..Dorian will soon be added to this list. If the companies announced their characters as gay then there would be newsite, and comments reacting to it. Bioware announced their gay character so expect people talking about it, they made the announcement x) 

[The Hierophant]

Look a Vivienne then look at Isabela and Duncan.
 
I'm sorry, but it's a stretch.  This coming from a man of mixed European and African heritage.

So what? Africa is arguably the most ethnically diverse continent on the planet. No two groups of people will look exactly a like, especially in the same country too.

[NM_Che56]

You kind of have to leave the thread then come back to it, for both the 'like' and 'edit' buttons to magically appear.   Took me a bit to figure it out, too.

sorcery!!!

[NM_Che56]

So what? Africa is arguably the most ethnically diverse continent on the planet. No two groups of people will look exactly a like, especially in the same country too.

*SNIP*






 

 

...and nary one of them looks like Isabela or Duncan.

[tmp7704]

I cannot say that Dorian is the first "fully gay" male in ANY video game.  I seriously doubt that's possible.

It's a good thing that's not what they are claiming, then.

The statement in IGN article you linked is worded pretty clearly -- "Dorian, a mage who is developer BioWare's first "fully gay" male party member ever".

"BioWare's games" in no way equals "ANY video game".

The extra focus that receives may be due to how the male gay characters tend to meet with strong backlash from the 'traditional' target group of gamers, i.e. straight males. Just recall all the drama over Anders daring to hit on them once has caused. So having one is a bit of going out on a limb for them. In contrast, the character being black doesn't appear to make such a stir, and like the others says it's Vivienne isn't exactly BioWare's first character they would consider black.

[andar91]

Yes, Africa is a diverse country. That doesn't change the fact that the character creation options in DA:O and DA2 only let you go so far, and any black character you tried to create (imho) looked like a spray-painted white person (and not even a good spray-paint job).

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bioware is a terrible-awful company that sits in board room, fingers its wispy goatee, strokes a white cat, and declares, "SCREW ALL OF THE BLACK PEOPLE MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

 

I mean, they do that stuff, probably, just not about black people.

 

All we're saying is they could have done better than they did, and now they seemingly are with characters like Vivienne.

[The Hierophant]

...and nary one of them looks like Isabela or Duncan.

Nice goalpost shift. You stated in your previous post that Vivienne doesn't look like Duncan or Isabela. I showed you people inhabiting the same country no less to display the variance in appearance.





from the same country as the previously posted yet vary in appearance.

[Loki_344]

...but a large portion of the South American population has European ancestry.  Particularly Spanish and Italian.

 

As well as Native American and Black. The Rivaini depicted in the games/comics do not look Mediterranean.

[NM_Che56]

Yes, Africa is a diverse country. That doesn't change the fact that the character creation options in DA:O and DA2 only let you go so far, and any black character you tried to create (imho) looked like a spray-painted white person (and not even a good spray-paint job).

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bioware is a terrible-awful company that sits in board room, fingers its wispy goatee, strokes a white cat, and declares, "SCREW ALL OF THE BLACK PEOPLE MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

 

I mean, they do that stuff, probably, just not about black people.

 

All we're saying is they could have done better than they did, and now they seemingly are with characters like Vivienne.

 

I don't think they stroke their beards with evil intent for anything.  I think it's just a matter of not really seeing black people in a lot of fantasy stories (movies and TV).  It wasn't until this one scene in the last Hobbit movie that I saw people of color.

[NM_Che56]

Nice goalpost shift. You stated in your previous post that Vivienne doesn't look Duncan or Isabela. I showed you people inhabiting the same country no less to display the variance in appearance.


from the same country as the previously posted yet vary in appearance.

 

No goalposts were shifted.  Despite your impressions, I'm not ignorant of the continent's diversity.  Hell, Charlise Theron is African.