103 réponses à ce sujet

[Tinxa]

Well, on one hand I understand the concern because I don't like big spoilers either but on the other hand it is kind of ones own fault if they regularly check the forums and watch every video and piece of info.

 

But we also have different tolerance for spoilers. I really really hate big end game spoilers or spoilers of surprise revelations but I've seen some posters complain about what I consider the most basic plot info and the glowy hand (which is on the box by the way and not a big secret). If they're showing the game they have to show SOMETHING. And when people ask "Well what is DAI about? what's going on?" they have to explain the story and start of the game a little bit.

 

I mean really... ask that question about anything "Hey what is DAO about?" "Well, you become this Grey warden and..." "What? I become a Grey warden! You spoiled the surprise for me!"

 

When I come here I accept that if I see something about DAI I'd rather not (and its BW info not some troll that hacked the game) that it's basically my fault for looking. I personally think they've been pretty good with keeping a lid on most of the story and just showing the basics and companions (and I'm interested in companion info, if I wanted to be left completely in the dark I would know better than to come to the forums with big companion names in thread titles). I think it's really unrealistic to expect that while researching a game you'll be able to see JUST the gameplay mechanic or JUST the specialisations... if you actively search for info you have to take the chance of being spoiled.

[Majestic Jazz]

Well, on one hand I understand the concern because I don't like big spoilers either but on the other hand it is kind of ones own fault if they regularly check the forums and watch every video and piece of info.

 

 

So it is my fault if I want to learn about gameplay mechanics such as combat, character creation, crafting, skyhold/base customization, skill trees/class specializations, and other non plot information? And it is my fault that when seeking this information, that I accidently run over a plot spoiler? 

 

I am sorry but I am a customer/consumer who is still deciding on whether to purchase a product and it is "my fault" for wanting to know more information about a product before release?

 

This is the crux of my argument, that there is a faction of consumers/potential consumers who is trying to learn about DA:I to see if it is worth their $60 (especially after DA2) and these people may not want to know about character details, plot details, and location details but rather the non-plot details I listed above. A person may be reading a sentence or paragraph from IGN.com or OXM in regards to something that is non-plot based but somewhere scattered in that article or plot spoilers that can be accidently read. This is how I learned about the opening sequences of the game. I wasn't reading OXM to purposely find that information out, I just wanted to know non-spoiler type of information which as a potential consumer, I have the right to know about, and yet I learned something I did not want to because Bioware is so liberal when it comes.

 

To tell a consumer who is still researching a product to stay away from all product information or else they will be spoiled really does not make sense and I assume that Bioware/EA would never directly tell a consumer that. 

 

Games like GTA5 and The Last of Us were games that had great marketing and yet virtually nothing was revealed about the plot/characters/locations except for VERY VERY VERY vague details. We knew Trevor was Crazy but that was it. It was left for us to play the game to find out how GTA5's Trevor was crazy and where it came from. If it was Bioware marketing GTA5, we would have already knew about some details of Trevor's reasons for being crazy and so on and so forth. 

 

Again, this is just something unique to Bioware and even they notice, as they came out and vowed to not spoil Mass Effect 3. 

[llandwynwyn]

Bioware spoils too much and without need. The dragon fight is a good example of showing the game without spoiling it for us, but then they had to follow it with huge spoilers with what is happening in Redcliffe. I didn't need to know that if we take Leliana in this mission she gets tortured. Or any of the spoilers show there. Why show us this. I'm sure they must have a working generic mission in the game.

[azrael_1289]

Games like GTA5 and The Last of Us were games that had great marketing and yet virtually nothing was revealed about the plot/characters/locations except for VERY VERY VERY vague details. We knew Trevor was Crazy but that was it. It was left for us to play the game to find out how GTA5's Trevor was crazy and where it came from. If it was Bioware marketing GTA5, we would have already knew about some details of Trevor's reasons for being crazy and so on and so forth. 

 

This is a joke right? We knew the gist of the entire GTA 5 story months before the game was released.

 

Just like you want to know more about gameplay mechanics and stuff, there are many out there who want to know a little bit about the plot especially people who are new to the franchise and there isn't anything wrong with catering to them. I really don't think it's hard to get upto date with gameplay mechanics without getting spoiled. Agreed it takes effort on our part, but it is possible. The alternative being releasing no plot details at all thus driving away potential new fans.

[Majestic Jazz]

This is a joke right? We knew the gist of the entire GTA 5 story months before the game was released.

 

Just like you want to know more about gameplay mechanics and stuff, there are many out there who want to know a little bit about the plot especially people who are new to the franchise and there isn't anything wrong with catering to them. I really don't think it's hard to get upto date with gameplay mechanics without getting spoiled. Agreed it takes effort on our part, but it is possible. The alternative being releasing no plot details at all thus driving away potential new fans.

There is a difference between showing vague story details to new players vs outright showing plot spoilers like what happened in the E3 demo regarding Leliana/Dorian's mentor and his son.

 

And just because people want to know about the plot does not mean they have to go into detail like Bioware does. Take ME1 as an example and how they handled it at E3 2007. I wanted to know about the story of Mass Effect and what it was about because it was a new IP and I wanted a understanding of the "universe" that we will be playing in. But does that mean that I wanted to know that on Virmire, midway through the game, a companion of mine [Wrex] will turn on me because of a possible decision that I may or may not make regarding the genophage and if the situation goes sour, he would attack me, causing me to kill him and lose him permenately as a companion? HELL NO! But yet that is what Bioware released.

 

There is a line, and Bioware always passes that line. Bioware could have simply said "In Mass Effect you will be tasked to make difficult decisions that will have lasting consequences on the galaxy and those people following you" and just left it right there. That would made ALL of us salivate at the mouth, making us hungry and EAGER to play the game when it came out November 2007. However, they had to take it further and explain a MAJOR and I mean MAJOR plot point in ME1 that actually had lasting effects in ME2 and especially ME3.

 

Bioware reminds me of that friend who goes to see a movie and loves it so much and was so entertained by it to the point where when he is "explaining" what he liked about the movie, you tend to close your ears because you know that he has a habit of saying things that you might not want to hear cause you haven't seen the movie yet. I think that describes Bioware perfectly. They put so much passion into their stories and characters, that they just cannot wait for release to learn the details, but instead have to spoil companion information in their companion reveals and plot details to the media like IGN/OXM. They couldn't say "Well yes, Commander Shepard is working with Cerberus in ME2 to take down the Collectors. Why Shepard is with Cerberus is just something you will have to play to see." Instead, they had to say, "Commander Shepard dies in the beginning of the game because of a Collector attack and Cerberus recovers his body to rebuild him, thus forcing Shepard to sell his soul to the devil to take down the Collectors. Oh......and Shepard and your entire party can also die at the end of the game!!!!! trollolololol!!!"

[azrael_1289]

There is a difference between showing vague story details to new players vs outright showing plot spoilers like what happened in the E3 demo regarding Leliana/Dorian's mentor and his son.

 

And just because people want to know about the plot does not mean they have to go into detail like Bioware does. Take ME1 as an example and how they handled it at E3 2007. I wanted to know about the story of Mass Effect and what it was about because it was a new IP and I wanted a understanding of the "universe" that we will be playing in. But does that mean that I wanted to know that on Virmire, midway through the game, a companion of mine [Wrex] will turn on me because of a possible decision that I may or may not make regarding the genophage and if the situation goes sour, he would attack me, causing me to kill him and lose him permenately as a companion? HELL NO! But yet that is what Bioware released.

 

There is a line, and Bioware always passes that line. Bioware could have simply said "In Mass Effect you will be tasked to make difficult decisions that will have lasting consequences on the galaxy and those people following you" and just left it right there. That would made ALL of us salivate at the mouth, making us hungry and EAGER to play the game when it came out November 2007. However, they had to take it further and explain a MAJOR and I mean MAJOR plot point in ME1 that actually had lasting effects in ME2 and especially ME3.

 

Bioware reminds me of that friend who goes to see a movie and loves it so much and was so entertained by it to the point where when he is "explaining" what he liked about the movie, you tend to close your ears because you know that he has a habit of saying things that you might not want to hear cause you haven't seen the movie yet. I think that describes Bioware perfectly. They put so much passion into their stories and characters, that they just cannot wait for release to learn the details, but instead have to spoil companion information in their companion reveals and plot details to the media like IGN/OXM. They couldn't say "Well yes, Commander Shepard is working with Cerberus in ME2 to take down the Collectors. Why Shepard is with Cerberus is just something you will have to play to see." Instead, they had to say, "Commander Shepard dies in the beginning of the game because of a Collector attack and Cerberus recovers his body to rebuild him, thus forcing Shepard to sell his soul to the devil to take down the Collectors. Oh......and Shepard and your entire party can also die at the end of the game!!!!! trollolololol!!!"

All true. But, there are people who enjoy that. Just look at the twitter thread where people are asking for more info and are requesting Bioware to release the full 40 minute demo they showed the press at E3.

So, Bioware either has to disappoint them or you. And I repeat again, it really really isn't difficult to avoid spoilers if you are so inclined.

And your complaint that BW spoiled the first 2 minutes of ME2? I don't even know how to respond to that. Every movie, game or a novel has atleast that amount of info released about them. I think it's your preference to not know literally anything at all about a plot, which isn't wrong, but you have to accept that's not how everyone feels. So, you should probably stop visiting forums or DA social media stuff till release because it's only bound to get worse. 
And if you think you gleaned too much from the Lelianna/Dorian stuff, please explain it to mean. It made zero sense to me. Where we were? Why we were there? What was Lelianna doing there? Did Sera really die? What are we doing there? Why Lelianna killed that dude? Did she die at the end with all those arrows?

[duckley]

I suspect that if you dont want any spoilers, then staying away from boards like this, coverage of events like E3, I ternet and gamer mag articles etc., would be the best course of action.

[Majestic Jazz]

All true. But, there are people who enjoy that. Just look at the twitter thread where people are asking for more info and are requesting Bioware to release the full 40 minute demo they showed the press at E3.

So, Bioware either has to disappoint them or you. And I repeat again, it really really isn't difficult to avoid spoilers if you are so inclined.

And your complaint that BW spoiled the first 2 minutes of ME2? I don't even know how to respond to that. Every movie, game or a novel has atleast that amount of info released about them. I think it's your preference to not know literally anything at all about a plot, which isn't wrong, but you have to accept that's not how everyone feels. So, you should probably stop visiting forums or DA social media stuff till release because it's only bound to get worse. 
And if you think you gleaned too much from the Lelianna/Dorian stuff, please explain it to mean. It made zero sense to me. Where we were? Why we were there? What was Lelianna doing there? Did Sera really die? What are we doing there? Why Lelianna killed that dude? Did she die at the end with all those arrows?

And this is where Bioware is weaker than other Developers. With all other videogames, the consumer wants to know story details but the developers either release highly vague information or they release only non-plot specific stuff. Bioware is the only AAA developer who decides to just spoil everything because a small number of twitter fans demands more info.

 

And again, you and everyone else keeps ignoring my example from E3 2007 regarding Mass Effect 1. There was no twitter then (or at least it wasn't like what it is today) and fans were not really demanding more plot information, and yet Bioware still spoiled the whole Wrex/Virmire plot line.

 

So this isn't about Bioware just satisfying fans with spoilers (if that makes any sense). This is about Bioware and their inablity to fully market a game without going overboard on spoilers. 

[Majestic Jazz]

I suspect that if you dont want any spoilers, then staying away from boards like this, coverage of events like E3, I ternet and gamer mag articles etc., would be the best course of action.

 

So if I want to learn about character creation, skyhold/base customization, skills and class specializations, then I should just not be able to know this information? How else am I suppose to learn it?

 

And this is the big situation. People like me want to know about the game, but only non-plot/character details. However, ever sense Mass Effect 1, Bioware only focuses their marketing/coverage/pre-release information on plot/character details. Normally it isn't until a month or so before the game comes out when websites do their "hands on" previews or either when the game comes out and they do the reviews, when we finally get to learn about the non-plot/character related information, and even then it is buried under the spoilers contained in the articles. 

 

Man, I might be showing my age, but I miss the days of pre-KOTOR when the only thing Bioware talked about in their games was combat, gameplay, and choice (Without spoilers). I followed KOTOR from the moment it was announced on the January 2002 issue of OXM all the way to its July 2003 release and yet NOTHING was spoiled. All we knew was that you played as a Jedi trying to stop the destruction of Darth Malak. And Chris Priesly was just some QA guy. Man, those were the days.....

[TheTurtle]

So if I want to learn about character creation, skyhold/base customization, skills and class specializations, then I should just not be able to know this information? How else am I suppose to learn it?

And this is the big situation. People like me want to know about the game, but only non-plot/character details. However, ever sense Mass Effect 1, Bioware only focuses their marketing/coverage/pre-release information on plot/character details. Normally it isn't until a month or so before the game comes out when websites do their "hands on" previews or either when the game comes out and they do the reviews, when we finally get to learn about the non-plot/character related information, and even then it is buried under the spoilers contained in the articles.

Man, I might be showing my age, but I miss the days of pre-KOTOR when the only thing Bioware talked about in their games was combat, gameplay, and choice (Without spoilers). I followed KOTOR from the moment it was announced on the January 2002 issue of OXM all the way to its July 2003 release and yet NOTHING was spoiled. All we knew was that you played as a Jedi trying to stop the destruction of Darth Malak. And Chris Priesly was just some QA guy. Man, those were the days.....

You could always just Google those things specifically you don't need to go on boards where you know people are asking for spoilers.

[azrael_1289]

And this is where Bioware is weaker than other Developers. With all other videogames, the consumer wants to know story details but the developers either release highly vague information or they release only non-plot specific stuff. Bioware is the only AAA developer who decides to just spoil everything because a small number of twitter fans demands more info.

 

And again, you and everyone else keeps ignoring my example from E3 2007 regarding Mass Effect 1. There was no twitter then (or at least it wasn't like what it is today) and fans were not really demanding more plot information, and yet Bioware still spoiled the whole Wrex/Virmire plot line.

 

So this isn't about Bioware just satisfying fans with spoilers (if that makes any sense). This is about Bioware and their inablity to fully market a game without going overboard on spoilers. 

I ignored your E3 2007 example because I don't know what they revealed in E3 2007. Even though I was following ME closely, I didn't remember being spoiled when I played that section. So I can't comment on that. I have been perfectly happy with the amount of information they have released for DA:I. 

And again, it really really really isn't difficult not to spoil yourself of anything and still learn about gameplay mechanics. Infact there was a spoiler free thread to discuss about things revealed in E3(which had faaar less participation I might add) in which people were discussing about stuff without going into spoiler turf. So, I don't really understand your complaint that BW shouldn't release these information to what you presume to be a tiny fraction that is asking for it. Have you stopped to consider that maybe it is an even smaller fraction that considers the current amount of information too much? 

And Bioware has to be different from other companies because they are a RPG company whose main selling points are the characters, the plot, and such stuff. I don't fault their marketing for focusing on what most everyone in gaming sphere consider to be their biggest plus point.

Modifié par azrael_1289, 03 juillet 2014 - 02:51 .

[Enigmatick]

You could always just Google those things specifically you don't need to go on boards where you know people are asking for spoilers.

Googling that information will always lead to big spoilers. The information should simply not be out there, this is more or less a symptom of the current vocal fanbase more or less not caring about game mechanics so Bioware more or less thinks that character spoilers and such are the only way to keep people hooked.

[Majestic Jazz]

I ignored your E3 2007 example because I don't know what they revealed in E3 2007. Even though I was following ME closely, I didn't remember being spoiled when I played that section. So I can't comment on that. I have been perfectly happy with the amount of information they have released for DA:I. 

And again, it really really really isn't difficult not to spoil yourself of anything and still learn about gameplay mechanics. So, I don't really understand your complaint that BW shouldn't release these information to what you presume to be a tiny fraction that is asking for it. Have you stopped to consider that maybe it is an even smaller fraction that considers the current amount of information too much? 

 

Yes it is difficult because all the information is so saturated with plot spoilers. When it comes to Bioware's coverage of games, it is normally 80%-90% plot related while the rest of the stuff that does not deal with the plot. However if I am trying to skim through an IGN or OXM article to pick out the non-plot/character stuff, I am more then likely going to accidently read something like, "With the Mages/Templars dying in the game's opening....." by the time I try to stop the sentence I have already read too much. From that little bit of info I can already assume that there will be Mages/Templars who die in the game's opening scenes, something I do not want ruined for me and yet I was only reading the article to see if anything regarding combat, classes, races, skills, gameplay, customization was revealed.

 

I might be the only one "complaining" about this, but I bet I am not the only DA:I follower who is actively seeking gameplay related information but in the process, was spoiled. I can understand if I watch a trailer and complain, but when I am watching an interview hoping to learn something new about the gameplay and the developer blurps out, "When you meet X character at Y location...." I did not want to know that but yet it was already revealed to me. However, I entered into the interview because I wanted to know about gameplay but yet it was my fault for watching the video?

[azrael_1289]

I might be the only one "complaining" about this, but I bet I am not the only DA:I follower who is actively seeking gameplay related information but in the process, was spoiled. I can understand if I watch a trailer and complain, but when I am watching an interview hoping to learn something new about the gameplay and the developer blurps out, "When you meet X character at Y location...." I did not want to know that but yet it was already revealed to me. However, I entered into the interview because I wanted to know about gameplay but yet it was my fault for watching the video?

There is a very simple solution if you don't want to know as much information as mages and templars dying. Create a thread titled Spoiler free info on DA:I so people who don't mind them can post stuff that aren't spoilers.

[Majestic Jazz]

Googling that information will always lead to big spoilers. The information should simply not be out there, this is more or less a symptom of the current vocal fanbase more or less not caring about game mechanics so Bioware more or less thinks that character spoilers and such are the only way to keep people hooked.

Sadly, you are right.

 

Thing is, Bioware was not always like this and the fans weren't always like this. Going all the way back to Neverwinter Knights, KOTOR, and Jade Empire (Pre-EA Bioware), it was ALL about gameplay and new mechanics and how they are innovating the genre. This was Bioware circa 2001-2005. It wasn't until Mass Effect 1, their new IP when fans wanted to know more and more about the game's mysterious plot regarding the reapers (name which was leaked by a dev on the forums btw) when Bioware suddenly thought that the only way to make people interested in their games is to show off the critical decisions that can be made as well as revealing nearly all the core locations/characters.

 

So what has changed between 2001 and now? They were able to get people hooked on NWN/KOTOR/JE without any spoilers, so why can't they do it today? Again, what changed?

 

Personally I think it is just a different time. Back then, us old-school Bioware fans appreciated a great story and thus did not want it ruined for us. Bioware knew this and they were VERY stingy with what they released to the press. I remember reading an old OXM preview for KOTOR and it was like 5-7 pages long and yet I did not learn anything about the plot, locations, or characters. Instead it was all regarding how you make important choices, you travel the galaxy, you can be lightside or darkside, combat is a hybrid of turn-based/real-time, worlds are immersive, unique soundtrack, takes place 4000 years before the movies, face changes if you go darkside, and on and on and on. In other words, NOTHING regarding the plot or locations or characters were revealed. Again, this was in 2002/2003 and the Bioware fanbase was much smaller than what it is today.

 

Now that Bioware is all big, their fanbase is expanded as well which may include people who do not hail from the 1999-2003 era Bioware and thus does not hold the essence of story being preserved today as we did back then. Today, fans want to know everything (as people point to the twitter thread). This is the ADD generation of fans where we are impatient and have to "have it now" or we lose interest. The problem is, Bioware does not have the will power anymore to resist the fan urges for plot information and thus they give in and release it to us.

 

Personally I do not want the 30 min E3 demo to be released. I do not want this love interest "table". I do not want to know the remaining locations. If any other DA:O or DA2 companion has a cameo/role in DA:I, then I do not want to know who that person is. I want to know that we make big and lasting decisions, not an actual ingame example of a big and lasting decision. I want to know that there are many locations for us to explore, not the actual locations that we can explore. 

 

Again, what changed between 2001 and now? Has Bioware changed or has their fanbase changed?

[Enigmatick]

 

I might be the only one "complaining" about this, but I bet I am not the only DA:I follower who is actively seeking gameplay related information

I'm honestly more annoyed that there seems to be very little of this in general.

[azrael_1289]

Googling that information will always lead to big spoilers. The information should simply not be out there, this is more or less a symptom of the current vocal fanbase more or less not caring about game mechanics so Bioware more or less thinks that character spoilers and such are the only way to keep people hooked.

It really is. I play Bioware games more because of it's story and characters than it's game mechanics. I am hardly the only one.

[Enigmatick]

It really is. I play Bioware games more because of it's story and characters than it's game mechanics. I am hardly the only one.

At which do you feel that you learned enough about the story from marketing to want to buy the game? At any point do actually want to know more about the mechanics? Don't you want to see how the mechanics interact with the stories?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick but I feel mentalities like this are why we see less "use the gas grenades wisely and avoid shooting to save the colonists" and more "pick the top right option to save everyone" in gameplay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BioWare releases all sorts of spoilers. I've never heard a Dragon Age developer say that spoilers weren't going to be revealed, but I have heard David lament about the amount of knowledge the fans get.

And yes, you can avoid the spoilers.

I'm waiting for the romances to be announced so I can depart until the game arrives. Unless there's a specific piece of information you're waiting for, I'd suggest you do the same.

I'm waiting for game mechanics.  That's all I'm ever waiting for.

 

And they never seem to release that.

 

I think BioWare releases far too many spoilers.  I think the names of the companions is a spoiler.

[azrael_1289]

At which do you feel that you learned enough about the story from marketing to want to buy the game? At any point do actually want to know more about the mechanics? Don't you want to see how the mechanics interact with the stories?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick but I feel mentalities like this are why we see less "use the gas grenades wisely and avoid shooting to save the colonists" and more "pick the top right option to save everyone" in gameplay.

Right. Other fan's mentalities is ruining your gameplay experience  
The gameplay mechanic "your choices have real consequences" for example is hard to demonstrate without revealing things. If they just say that and don't show anything, people will question how it really works. Likewise, many RPG gameplay mechanics can't be shown in isolation, they need context which many people consider spoilers. 

I mean there are people out there who didn't want it to be spoilt that you'll be fighting dragons in the game. BW can't please everybody. So, they are taking the safe option of letting the information out there for those who fell they need it to get interested in the game.

 

I think we are now going around in circles. I feel it's no big deal and can be avoided while still learning about gameplay without too much hassle. Apart from that let's just agree to disagree. 

[azrael_1289]

I'm waiting for game mechanics.  That's all I'm ever waiting for.

 

And they never seem to release that.

 

I think BioWare releases far too many spoilers.  I think the names of the companions is a spoiler.

What gameplay mechanic do you need more information on?

[Ascendra]

What gameplay mechanic do you need more information on?

Not sure if that counts but i would have wanted to see other specializations for example. Why keep the lid on that?

[azrael_1289]

Not sure if that counts but i would have wanted to see other specializations for example. Why keep the lid on that?

Cause even that maybe considered spoilers? I didn't even know about all the different specializations in DA:O and was pleasantly surprised when I realized I unlocked the reaver specialization by joining with the cult.
Anyways, they have already revealed the names and am sure will move onto revealing more information about them in time.

[Aimi]

Cause even that maybe considered spoilers?

It's never going to be possible to please all the spoilerphobes and it would be foolish to try. Hell, from one point of view the title of the game could be considered a spoiler because it reveals the involvement of an inquisition.

If somebody does not want to see plot spoilers - and we are invariably talking about plot spoilers, because spoilerphobes privilege plot above all else as though that's the only thing interesting about a media experience - then it is on that person to close herself off from them.