202 réponses à ce sujet

[vallore]

Because saying 'Shepard will rejoin his LI' is rather dull-sounding, unromantic, and not dramatic. 

 

 

Poetic license?

 

Possibly, but, speaking of hope can also be a poetic way of saying that there is a chance of rejoining Shepard, not a certainty.

 

Seriously, word of god is (from more than just that link) that Shepard is meant to 100% survive high-ems Destroy. You can interpret it the other way, but to BW (despite what Priestly said, and as an aside, I really want to say some pretty harsh things about him but won't), it's clear that Shepard lives

 

Now I know only of this link, (that I found after you indicated the name), and I really don’t see it as being as clear cut as you see it. (Perhaps others are more clear).

 

Regardless, considering just what I did see, what is clear to me is that Shepard survives the blast, and can survive her wounds, not that it is obvious that she must survive them.

 

Like I said; the scene itself requires a lot of headcanon to ensure Shepard survives, while Shepard’s death requires absolutely none. The survival scene provides hints, with credible doubts; death is clear due to observable ingame facts.  

 

It may be that I’m wrong. And indeed they planed it as something intended as clearly; explicitly indicating Shepard survives, but if so, the number of disgruntled players complaining about that ending seems to indicate that they were far from successful… or it could have indeed been intended to have a degree of ambiguity, even if the survival option took obviously more relevance with the EC.

[Iakus]

Immune? No. Resistant? Obviously, yes. And while the initial tube-popping blast affected Shepard, there's no telling what happened after that. For instance, a biotic Shepard could lift a ME2-esque bubble to shield the damage from a safer vantage point, or some other damage-cushioning answer for the other classes. Clearly wasn't enough to kill, though I'm far from a fan of how they telegraphed this point.

It did, and then Shepard took a breath of life. Oooooops.
 

Do you honestly believe BioWare presented the breath scene, the most difficult thing to obtain in the game, as a depiction of the last gasp before Shepard's death? But yeah, if you want to interpret it that way in the face of a structured Word of God and very obvious authorial intent, go for it.
 

 

Funny how that explosion plays out exactly the same no matter what EMS you're at.  Whatever space magic keeps Shepard alive must be really subtle stuff.

 

Shepard took a single breath.   Alone.  Badly injured.  On an abandoned space stations.  Someplace no organic had ever set foot.  And has been written off as dead by nearly everyone.

 

Yeah, clearly everything's  fine 

 

It;s an Easter Egg.  Nothing more.  It's permission to headcanon something other than what the other six (now seven) endings blatantly portrayed.  3099 EMS Destroy plays out exactly the same as 3100 EMS Destroy, minus the breath scene.  There's no reason Shepard should be alive.  But an image gets dangled in front of the audience as a "ray of hope"  They even used the term "ray of hope"

 

Show me anything post-"it could be his last breath" that definitively states "Shepard survives that ending" and  I'll withdraw that statement.  But I am confident you won't find it.  Because that's not the party line anymore.  Now it's deliberately ambiguous.

[dreamgazer]

Shepard took a single breath.   Alone.  Badly injured.  On an abandoned space stations.  Someplace no organic had ever set foot.  And has been written off as dead by nearly everyone.
 
Yeah, clearly everything's  fine 

Yes, Shepard took a breath of life after getting injured. Do you think s/he doesn't have a tracking device, or that a search wouldn't be promptly conducted after the blast for "the messiah"?

Things are far better off than you think.
 

It;s an Easter Egg.  Nothing more.  It's permission to headcanon something other than what the other six (now seven) endings blatantly portrayed.  3099 EMS Destroy plays out exactly the same as 3100 EMS Destroy, minus the breath scene.  There's no reason Shepard should be alive.  But an image gets dangled in front of the audience as a "ray of hope"  They even used the term "ray of hope"

None of this negates anything being discussed, actually.
 

Show me anything post-"it could be his last breath" that definitively states "Shepard survives that ending" and  I'll withdraw that statement.  But I am confident you won't find it.  Because that's not the party line anymore.  Now it's deliberately ambiguous.

"This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct."

[vallore]

I guess there's no real point in arguing over the details of the final sequence regarding Shepard's survival or death, because lots of things don't make sense in the series anyhow. Shepard's body should not have been salvageable after the Collector attack, yet it was. Anyone using just a flimsy breather mask in thin atmospheres should have pesky issues like blood vessels hemorrhaging in their eyeballs. Guess not.

 

The catalyst says a lot of stuff. Shepard's cybernetics? No biggie. Garrus, who is also augmented by cybernetics after the gunship battle on Omega, seems right as rain regardless.

 

That is indeed a good point.

 

 

Whether or not one believes Shepard shouldn't be able to survive doesn't matter, because he/she basically does anyway. Shepard cannot survive a direct hit from a reaper...but here we are. Trying to apply lots of logic to the overly dramatic imagery of the cut scenes never really goes well.

 

The problem here is that BW didn’t show the scene of Shepard’s survival.  When a scene shows something that pushes the envelope of the believable, the player still has that scene she watched as “proof” it happened, even if logic seems to conflict with it. But it the scene is left for the player to head canon and there is no comfortably logical way out of it, (for that player),  then the hammer of logic falls with all it’s might, with no ingame fact to oppose it. That is why it , imo, matters.

[ImaginaryMatter]

"This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct."

 

Eh, maybe. But I think that brings up the question why the love interest doesn't feel that way in the other two endings. Is red a more hopeful colored explosion?

[vallore]

The executive producer's intent - Hudson's - was that if you gathered enough resources Shepard would survive the destroy ending. That is why the breath scene got put in there in the first place. There was no ambiguity.... until the troll at SDCC.

 

I played the original ending on March 22nd 2012. I chose Destroy. I got the breath scene. My first reaction was: "Phew, survived." The feeling of emptiness was the aftermath... the mass relays were destroyed. I'd never see Liara again, or any of my team. I knew Liara, Javik and Joker made it. Was anyone else still alive? How would the Turians, Asari, and Quarians get home? What about the Krogan?

 

It was definite that Shepard survived high EMS destroy, otherwise there was no purpose for the scene.

 

As I said elsewhere that is not my feeling, considering what I read others posting and what was previously said about  the issue. 

 

As I recall back then, most people claiming for the scene were SP players with no intent of playing MP, (and therefore, like me, not having seen the scene ingame themselves), not to speak that the other problems of the vanilla ending dwarfed the ambiguity of this particular ending.  Unfortunatly not all that was said by BW concerning the endings, was entirely clear, even Hudson had it's ABC moment. But overall, I got the feeling they designed the endings in general with the intent of being pervasive,open to various interpretations, and that involves ambiguityy in greater or smaller degree.

 

 

I almost forgot, if I’m not mistaken you wrote the new music for MEHEM; a really great job!

[dreamgazer]

Eh, maybe. But I think that brings up the question why the love interest doesn't feel that way in the other two endings. Is red a more hopeful colored explosion?

Well, the same things didn't happen in the other two endings. Shepard's inside everyone in Synthesis, apparently, and the Reapers just fly away following the Control wave. There's weight and finality behind the image of them getting overloaded, though.

[Steelcan]

Funny how that explosion plays out exactly the same no matter what EMS you're at.  Whatever space magic keeps Shepard alive must be really subtle stuff.
 
Shepard took a single breath.   Alone.  Badly injured.  On an abandoned space stations.  Someplace no organic had ever set foot.  And has been written off as dead by nearly everyone.
 
Yeah, clearly everything's  fine 
 
It;s an Easter Egg.  Nothing more.  It's permission to headcanon something other than what the other six (now seven) endings blatantly portrayed.  3099 EMS Destroy plays out exactly the same as 3100 EMS Destroy, minus the breath scene.  There's no reason Shepard should be alive.  But an image gets dangled in front of the audience as a "ray of hope"  They even used the term "ray of hope"
 
Show me anything post-"it could be his last breath" that definitively states "Shepard survives that ending" and  I'll withdraw that statement.  But I am confident you won't find it.  Because that's not the party line anymore.  Now it's deliberately ambiguous.

The Breath Scene's intent is clearly to convey Shepard's survival, any other view is less supported by the evidence. You can complain about it being an Easter Egg until the universe implodes but it doesn't change what the scene was meant to convey.

[TurianRebel212]

Not really, Citadel DLC was cut content from ME2... Yeah that's right, the best content of ME3 was cut from ME2... Yeah. ME2 was so good. Anyway's, it's basically fan service and the proper send off that Shepard deserved and no that abortion that is the ME3 endings. It's the way the game was meant to end. Again, most people who bought citadel DLC had probably beaten ME3 before. So it was a sort of swan song for Shepard and Pals.

 

And it was amazing.

 

GG BioWare. One of the bright spots in the darkened tunnel that was ME3's single player.

 

Citadel DLC was so, so good.

 

 

And Shepard survives high ems destroy. The "ending" showed you this.

[Br3admax]

That is indeed a good point.

 

 

The problem here is that BW didn’t show the scene of Shepard’s survival.  When a scene shows something that pushes the envelope of the believable, the player still has that scene she watched as “proof” it happened, even if logic seems to conflict with it. But it the scene is left for the player to head canon and there is no comfortably logical way out of it, (for that player),  then the hammer of logic falls with all it’s might, with no ingame fact to oppose it. That is why it , imo, matters.

For starters, Mass Effect for all the pretend science it totes, is not about logic. Using logic won't help you here anymore than using magic. There's no comfortable logical way for Shepard to even be alive to get to the Citadel, so if the player can stomach that, get to the end, stomach getting shot in the stomach, twice, see themselves blow up, three times, hear that they will definitely die, and see that they didn't, despite all that, it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to assume that the Shepard will live to see tomorrow. Logic went out the window and died on the sidewalk a long time ago. That is why, imo, it only matters because you want it to. You cannot give a critical eye to thirty seconds without giving it to Mass Effect 2 onward. 

[TurianRebel212]

Rule of Cool. It supersedes anything and everything.

 

But... There are ways you can explain ME2 onward with facts and lore from the games. It just requires one to connect the dots and look further than the "codex" and what you see in the games....

 

But yeah.

 

 

Mass Effect is a Herculean Adventure about an uber BAMF space Marine who shoots aliens bad guys in the face and bangs hot chicks on his sleek cool space craft. And at the end of said Power Trip Fantasy The Herculean Unstoppable Ultra BAMF super cool Shepard can destroy the Gods, Join the Gods, or Control the Gods, Shepard is so cool and so awesome that he can even refuse the Gods and their magic.

 

The above is a rudimentary, if not naïve, but viable interpretation of Mass Effect.

 

 

It's a Space Opera about an Unstoppable Juggernaut who is the savior of the Galaxy.

[Br3admax]

Well, if you can find the logical way to explain ME2 with in game facts, I'm all ears. Right now, as it always has, it looks like more of the same, maybe even more outrageous.  

[vallore]

Immune? No. Resistant? Obviously, yes. And while the initial tube-popping blast affected Shepard, there's no telling what happened after that. For instance, a biotic Shepard could lift a ME2-esque bubble to shield the damage from a safer vantage point, or some other damage-cushioning answer for the other classes. Clearly wasn't enough to kill, though I'm far from a fan of how they telegraphed this point.
 

The armor in the breath scene actually looks no different than it did following Harbinger's blast and in the decision chamber.


 

It did, and then Shepard took a breath of life. Oooooops.
 

Do you honestly believe BioWare presented the breath scene, the most difficult thing to obtain in the game, as a depiction of the last gasp before Shepard's death? But yeah, if you want to interpret it that way in the face of a structured Word of God and very obvious authorial intent, go for it.

 

Actually everything you pointed shows that Shepard can survive. As I said, I agree with that. No problem there. What it doesn’t prove is that Shepard can’t die.  And you can’t prove it because it cannot be done. You would need a reason more valid than a personal interpretation of an ambiguous scene, or of your personal interpretation of a  “word of God” that is not clear on that point either, (perhaps because it is not even a point he was addressing?)

 

Even the “breath of life”, as you put it, was debated to death, with other players claiming it is a "last breath" scene. This happened because the scene is ambiguous; you don’t get any discussion about Shepard’s physically surviving Control or Synthesis because these endings are not, (on that point). That is also why the joke made by a dev. at the SDCC had such an impact.

 

<shrug> I honestly believe that BW presented the breath scene as the one ending where Shepard can live, but does not necessarily survives, if you don’t  want it so. It is the only one where such can happen, and that unique possibility is reason enough to make it hard to get.

 

 

For starters, Mass Effect for all the pretend science it totes, is not about logic. Using logic won't help you here anymore than using magic. There's no comfortable logical way for Shepard to even be alive to get to the Citadel, so if the player can stomach that, get to the end, stomach getting shot in the stomach, twice, see themselves blow up, three times, hear that they will definitely die, and see that they didn't, despite all that, it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to assume that the Shepard will live to see tomorrow. Logic went out the window and died on the sidewalk a long time ago. That is why, imo, it only matters because you want it to. You cannot give a critical eye to thirty seconds without giving it to Mass Effect 2 onward.

 

And what do those scenes have that the breath scene doesn’t? Actually showing the scene. Like you said, logic went out the window before, but at least until then you saw it happen.  You knew it was possible ingame because you were shown it happening.

 

Even when an unbelievable scene doesn’t work well at a logical level it can still work fine at an emotional level, because you see it happen. I would argue that such occurs frequently in the ME story. But in this ending we are asked to be both player and storyteller, and given an unbelievable situation to work with.  But this time you can’t see the scene to happen and so the emotional closure brought by the visual impact of the scene doesn’t occur. All that remains is logic, and if that already went out the window….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dreamgazer]

Not really, Citadel DLC was cut content from ME2... Yeah that's right, the best content of ME3 was cut from ME2... Yeah. ME2 was so good.

I wouldn't consider the clone plot itself, the thing purportedly cut from ME2 (not the squad interaction, the new hub, or everything else celebrated from the DLC pack), to be "the best content of ME3". Not by a long shot. It's a lot of schlocky fun, but also problematic if you think too hard about it.

[dreamgazer]

Well, if you can find the logical way to explain ME2 with in game facts, I'm all ears. Right now, as it always has, it looks like more of the same, maybe even more outrageous.

Hell, you can bull your way around Synthesis using particle physics, nanotechnology, and the mass relays better than you can explain how Shepard's dead brain was revived and 100% intact, which actively works against known physiology.

[Br3admax]

 

And what do those scenes have that the breath scene doesn’t? Actually showing the scene. Like you said, logic went out the window before, but at least until then you saw it happen.  You knew it was possible ingame because you were shown it happening.

 

Even when an unbelievable scene doesn’t work well at a logical level it can still work fine at an emotional level, because you see it happen. I would argue that such occurs frequently in the ME story. But in this ending we are asked to be both player and storyteller, and given an unbelievable situation to work with.  But this time you can’t see the scene to happen and so the emotional closure brought by the visual impact of the scene doesn’t occur. All that remains is logic, and if that already went out the window….

1. That wasn't even the point I'm responding to.

2. That's shitty logic: In a world of insanity, craziness, and space magic, seeing is believing? Either way, the breath scene shows breathing, weird right, so I think it's in the realm of possibility.

 

Okay, so when you didn't see an LI hugging a corpse, that's when the lack of emotional impact kicked in. The story was oh so acceptable when we see the impossible happen, but the second we don;t see the most sane thing in the last 5 hours, it's unbelievable and has no impact. I, like most people should have, had "emotional closure" when I chose for Shepard to die for the greater good, making a sacrifice for all of the galaxy. Was there emotion, yep? Pride, sadness(if I felt that), a feeling of accomplishment, finality. I had closure. The breath scene gives hope that Shepard will get to see the galaxy they saved. That one chance should be enough, especially in a world where people can fall from the atmosphere and not turn to goo. Forgive me for not seeing it as too much of a stretch to say that someone who survived a second fall from space, after being blown to bits and then destroyed on the inside, probably lived afterwards. 

[KaiserShep]

Hell, you can bull your way around Synthesis using particle physics, nanotechnology, and the mass relays better than you can explain how Shepard's dead brain was revived and 100% intact, which actively works against known physiology.

 

The sheer ridiculousness of it becomes even more apparent when you consider just how long it would have to take for any kind of real effort to be made to recover the body in the first place. How quickly could a first response team make it to the Amada System? How long would it take to comb the planet's surface? Also, while the crash site looks relatively nice and neat in ME2, in reality, the debris would have spread for miles around as bits of various sizes fell. Hell, it's kinda crazy that Shepard was able to recover 20 dog tags at all, when in all likelihood smaller bits of debris would have been embedded in ice after 2 years in the impact craters.

[vallore]

1. That wasn't even the point I'm responding to.

2. That's shitty logic: In a world of insanity, craziness, and space magic, seeing is believing? Either way, the breath scene shows breathing, weird right, so I think it's in the realm of possibility.

 

 

Okay, so when you didn't see an LI hugging a corpse, that's when the lack of emotional impact kicked in. The story was oh so acceptable when we see the impossible happen, but

 

the second we don;t see the most sane thing in the last 5 hours, it's unbelievable and has no impact.

 

I, like most people should have, had "emotional closure" when I chose for Shepard to die for the greater good, making a sacrifice for all of the galaxy. Was there emotion, yep? Pride, sadness(if I felt that), a feeling of accomplishment, finality. I had closure.

 

The breath scene gives hope that Shepard will get to see the galaxy they saved. That one chance should be enough, especially in a world where people can fall from the atmosphere and not turn to goo. Forgive me for not seeing it as too much of a stretch to say that someone who survived a second fall from space, after being blown to bits and then destroyed on the inside, probably lived afterwards.

1. That was the point of the original post you were answering to.  If you were not addressing it, then you were not addressing the post.
2. No, that is human mind for you.  Emotions play a role in it, and the way we respond to visual stimuli is not entirely dictated by logic, as emotion can colour or even override logic, at times. However proportion matters; suspension of disbelief can only go so far. It is different to show a broken soldier being rescued by an unlikely but providential rescue team, and using green magic to make everyone and everything into cyborgs.

 

Actualy, imo, the endings pulled the suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point at times, among other problems.

 

If you think Shepard survival is the most believable thing that happens in the last 5 hours, let’s agree to disagree.

 

Shepard die’s for the greater good? (that is another can of worms), but assuming she does,  so you are saying that the visual scene where you see your choice to happen enhances the emotional impact of it? Ok.

 

Hope, as I have repeatedly pointed out, means there’s a chance of something to happen. Hope is a fragile thing, it needs some solid ground,  or it can be broken.

 

Eh, if they had ended ME1 with the beginning scene of ME2, and said that this was the end of Shepard’s story, I would have a lot of problems seeing Shepard surviving. likewise, in ME3, after the repeated monumental beating she took, the bleeding, the ruined state of the station, the fact there is no one nearby, that the fleet is long gone, that Earth have their own problems, that…   well,  it needs a lot of headcanon to happen.

[Iakus]

Yes, Shepard took a breath of life after getting injured. Do you think s/he doesn't have a tracking device, or that a search wouldn't be promptly conducted after the blast for "the messiah"?

Things are far better off than you think.
 

Tracking device?  You mean headcanon?  Sure you have permission to imagine that.  But where would they look for Shepard, anyway?  And with what/  Everyone fled the system.  It could be hours if not days before anyone shows up again.  And then a search might begin.  

 

 

 

 

 

 
"This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct."

Quote was said before "It could be his final breath.  It has never since been reiterated, while "final breath" has been.

[Iakus]

Hell, you can bull your way around Synthesis using particle physics, nanotechnology, and the mass relays better than you can explain how Shepard's dead brain was revived and 100% intact, which actively works against known physiology.

I am far from a fan of the Lazarus Project, obviously.  But there you at least get to see Shepard up and about.

[Br3admax]

 

1. That was the point of the original post you were answering to.  If you were not addressing it, then you were not addressing the post.
2. No, that is human mind for you.  Emotions play a role in it, and the way we respond to visual stimuli is not entirely dictated by logic, as emotion can colour or even override logic, at times. However proportion matters; suspension of disbelief can only go so far. It is different to show a broken soldier being rescued by an unlikely but providential rescue team, and using green magic to make everyone and everything into cyborgs.

 

Actualy, imo, the endings pulled the suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point at times, among other problems.

 

If you think Shepard survival is the most believable thing that happens in the last 5 hours, let’s agree to disagree.

 

Shepard die’s for the greater good? (that is another can of worms), but assuming she does,  so you are saying that the visual scene where you see your choice to happen enhances the emotional impact of it? Ok.

 

Hope, as I have repeatedly pointed out, means there’s a chance of something to happen. Hope is a fragile thing, it needs some solid ground,  or it can be broken.

 

Eh, if they had ended ME1 with the beginning scene of ME2, and said that this was the end of Shepard’s story, I would have a lot of problems seeing Shepard surviving. likewise, in ME3, after the repeated monumental beating she took, the bleeding, the ruined state of the station, the fact there is no one nearby, that the fleet is long gone, that Earth have their own problems, that…   well,  it needs a lot of headcanon to happen.

 

1. No, the original point was that there was so little to go on, people could only use logic and say Shepard died. The fact is, using logic isn't reliable. It had nothing to do with closure. More to do with how to make a logical conclusion, which doesn't help here. 

2. Using broad generalizations is generally the wrong thing to do. Humans need visual stimuli for ever single situation like humans need french fries to go with every hamburger. 

 

Shepard not burning up in atmosphere wasn't beyond belief, but Shepard doing it again is, this time, with them for the time being, alive and breathing? 

Shepard stopped being believable 2 1/2 years before ME3 even began.

 

Obviously the scene was for emotional effect. The scenes with the lost, the loved, dramatic music, panning in and out, that was obviously the point of it. Considering the Catalyst gave a zero percent chance of survival as the best case scenario, why would you expect anything more unless you metagamed. This was the end. 

 

Shepard is alive when they shouldn't be. Nothing suggests that they are in any immediate danger. Everyone around is hopeful. It's as grounded as anything else. 

 

The fact is, Shepard didn't survive before, and yet they were still able to come out of it alive. Mass Effect is the universe of many incredible feats becoming reality despite it making no logical sense. This time Shepard is definitely breathing, and to assume that they could not because of logic is faulty. Logic doesn't help you in Mass Effect so unless someone tells you no, believe whatever you want. 

[dreamgazer]

Tracking device?  You mean headcanon?

 

Not really, since they're somehow monitoring Shepard's progress and found a way to reach his/her comm channel on the Citadel.  

 

I am far from a fan of the Lazarus Project, obviously.  But there you at least get to see Shepard up and about.

 

... and?

[DeinonSlayer]

Tracking device? You mean headcanon? Sure you have permission to imagine that. But where would they look for Shepard, anyway? And with what/ Everyone fled the system. It could be hours if not days before anyone shows up again. And then a search might begin.

Quote was said before "It could be his final breath. It has never since been reiterated, while "final breath" has been.

You are relentless in your pessimism, aren't you? What, do you want them to canonize MEHEM or something?

[sveners]

You are relentless in your pessimism, aren't you? What, do you want them to canonize MEHEM or something?

 

Like me, I imagine he would welcome any change that moves "Shepard Lives" from completely ridiculous, to somewhat probable/possible. It really wouldn't take much after all. A sweeping light. A muted voice. Footsteps. Even word of God. Not Tullyaukland reiterating exactly what we see. "This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct." That final scene shows Shepard draw a breath. Singular..... dead people can't do that usually.... it's how many more follow that breath that's the point of contention. If they can last until rescue.

 

In many ways I think this comes down to pessimism vs optimism. Glass half full or half empty. Some of us are naturally inclined to think the worst.

 

@dreamgazer. Yeah he's very good at assumptions that Hack guy. "Someone made it to the Citadel" Well that's obviously Shepard then. Never mind that Anderson made the trip around the same time

[Iakus]

You are relentless in your pessimism, aren't you? What, do you want them to canonize MEHEM or something?

I  would certainly welcome that option.  Though I'd never force that outcome on someone else.  

 

Right now, I'd just settle for them pitching all the outcomes and starting fresh.  But that's for another thread.