202 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Here's a quick example: In Terminator 2: Judgment Day, how is the T-1000 able to go back in time? The answer is that it can't, because it was clearly established in the first film that "nothing dead can go back," and the T-1000, being liquid metal, has no organic components. Upon noting this, I don't conclude that the events of T2 are all happening in Sarah Connor's head; rather, the more sensible conclusion is that the events did happen canonically within the story even though they contradict previously established lore. The writers just didn't think about the scientific or practical explanation of how the events in their story are possible. Same with the breath scene as far as I'm concerned.

 

Since the "only life" rule is so irrational in the first place, I gave them a pass on that. Liquid metal is "alive" enough for the purpose of time travel, I guess. Since we don't know the mechanism, why not?

[Reorte]

Not precisely; I may have been unclear back there. A player who wants to make up a reason that Shepard dies right away is still fighting the obvious meaning of the scene. But such an interpretation of the scene isn't impossible or crazy. Unless the player doesn't want to interpret the scene that way, in which case interpreting the scene that way is crazy, or at best masochistic.

I always end up saying this every time it comes up...

All logical reasoning based on the evidence we get suggests Shepard is, if not a corpse, on the verge of becoming one with no realistic chance of anything else happening. However reading between the lines and spotting that a pile of tired old storytelling conventions are being used suggests that the opposite is pretty much what's intended. The fact that it relies on those in contradiction to the plain hard fact of what is shown, instead of support of it, is a good part of what makes it a pathetically-done, immensely unsatisfying scene but I don't see any reason to think that it's intended to mean anything other than survival.

[Jorji Costava]

What I mean is what's the difference between 3099 EMS and 3100?  Why does Shepard die in one and live(?) in the other?  There is no clear reason besides "Because reason"  How can one appreciate Shepard lives when by all indications Shepard should be dead.

 

I mean, I can't justify it by saying Shepard was able to take shelter, or shoot from a distance (we clearly see Shepard walking into the explosion just like every other Destroy ending) We can't say the explosion was less intense, it appears identical (and equally massive).  We can't say anything, except "breath scene"

 

When you are dealing with someone else's character, especially whether said character lives or dies, you better be 100% clear why their last image of said character is a faceless torso and what that means exactly.

 

A couple of points here: The difference between 3,099 EMS and 3,100 EMS is that 3100 EMS is the cutoff point to get the breath scene. When you have a numerical system, it's inevitable that there will be an arbitrary cutoff point of this sort. Suppose there's a P/R check that requires 4,000 paragon points to make. Does the difference between 4,000 paragon points and 3,999 paragon points represent a substantial difference in terms of reputation or personal charisma? Not really. Nonetheless, you can make the check at 4,000, and can't at 3,999, because there has to be a cutoff point somewhere. Same with the breath scene.

 

The main reason why the last image of Shepard you see is that of a faceless torso is most likely that this required fewer resources; no matter what you did during character creation, that obscure part of the torso is going to look mostly the same. It wouldn't be the first time something like this happened in ME3 (Tali's face, masked Quarians during the consensus mission, etc.).

 

This is admittedly drifting a bit off topic, but I pretty much gave up on the idea that Shepard was 'mine' in any significant sense after the auto-alignment with Cerberus in ME2. The way I see it, Shepard is more like Adam Jensen from DX:HR (i.e. you can control some of his choices but a lot of his background, relationships and actions are pre-determined) than your average blank slate. I suspect it's a necessary trade-off when you actively pursue that kind of overtly cinematic style.

 

Since the "only life" rule is so irrational in the first place, I gave them a pass on that. Liquid metal is "alive" enough for the purpose of time travel, I guess. Since we don't know the mechanism, why not?

 

The "only organic material" rule may not make much sense, but it is necessary to explain why people from the future don't bring their phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range or even clothes with them (it's also necessary to push the "time travel as birth" metaphor they've got going on). Also, I'm not sure what's meant by "alive enough"; that sounds a little bit like "pregnant enough." Regardless, I'm not sure we're actually in disagreement about the main point, which is that it isn't always necessary or even desirable to look for in-universe explanations of everything, or to radically re-interpret events when those explanations can't be found.

 

EDIT: Fixed wording.

[Iakus]

A couple of points here: The difference between 3,099 EMS and 3,100 EMS is that 3100 EMS is the cutoff point to get the breath scene. When you have a numerical system, it's inevitable that there will be an arbitrary cutoff point of this sort. Suppose there's a P/R check that requires 4,000 paragon points to make. Does the difference between 4,000 paragon points and 3,999 paragon points represent a substantial difference in terms of reputation or personal charisma? Not really. Nonetheless, you can make the check at 4,000, and can't at 3,999, because there has to be a cutoff point somewhere. Same with the breath scene.

 

The main reason why the last image of Shepard you see is that of a faceless torso is most likely that this required fewer resources; no matter what you did during character creation, that obscure part of the torso is going to look mostly the same. It wouldn't be the first time something like this happened in ME3 (Tali's face, masked Quarians during the consensus mission, etc.).

 

This is admittedly drifting a bit off topic, but I pretty much gave up on the idea that Shepard was 'mine' in any significant sense after the auto-alignment with Cerberus in ME2. The way I see it, Shepard is more like Adam Jensen from DX:HR (i.e. you can control some of his choices but a lot of his background, relationships and actions are pre-determined) than your average blank slate. I suspect it's a necessary trade-off when you actively pursue that kind of overtly cinematic style.

 

First:  3099-3100 EMS is an arbitrary number.  What I mean is there is no visual explanation to show why anything works out differently.  Not like we are shown the difference between a low, Mid, and High EMS outcome.  There is literally no explanation for why Shepard isn't a cinder at 3100 MES besides "3100 EMS"

 

Second, Skimping on resources for what is literally Shepard's last moment in the game for a lot of people was a brain-bleedingly stupid thing to do.  to rival forcing Shep's death in virtually every ending to begin with.  This is our Shepard.  By making Shepard a faceless torso, they are stealing his/her identity, the one we spent five years creating dor ourselves. making Shepard the writer's.  This goes right back to Mac Walters comparing Commander Shepard to Walter White.

 

And "overtly cinematic style" is exactly what I'm afraid of.  Sacrificing the agency of the player for watching a button-awesome movie.  that is not a roleplaying experience. 

[KaiserShep]

I don't really get the faceless torso thing. I can't imagine why it would take any more resources to create that brief scene than it would be to create the final shot of ME1.

[Jorji Costava]

First:  3099-3100 EMS is an arbitrary number.  What I mean is there is no visual explanation to show why anything works out differently.  Not like we are shown the difference between a low, Mid, and High EMS outcome.  There is literally no explanation for why Shepard isn't a cinder at 3100 MES besides "3100 EMS"

 

Second, Skimping on resources for what is literally Shepard's last moment in the game for a lot of people was a brain-bleedingly stupid thing to do.  to rival forcing Shep's death in virtually every ending to begin with.  This is our Shepard.  By making Shepard a faceless torso, they are stealing his/her identity, the one we spent five years creating dor ourselves. making Shepard the writer's.  This goes right back to Mac Walters comparing Commander Shepard to Walter White.

 

And "overtly cinematic style" is exactly what I'm afraid of.  Sacrificing the agency of the player for watching a button-awesome movie.  that is not a roleplaying experience. 

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at with the whole "visual explanation" angle. There's no visual explanation of why 3,999 paragon points isn't enough to make a given check, either, but that's how it happens. I also remember that after the vent sequence in ME2's suicide mission, a certain squad member can get hit in the gut; if that squad member is loyal, they survive, but if not, they die. No explanation of any sort is provided for why this would happen: Why would loyalty affect the likelihood of dying from a shot to the gut? The point is that the EMS mechanic for the breath scene is not new to ME3's ending; if you're not going to assume that your squadmate actually did die from that shot to the stomach and you're just hallicinating, you shouldn't think that Shepard just dies at the end of the breath scene either.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that it was poorly handled; I'm just saying that if the question is simply whether, as a matter of fact, Shepard survives in the breath scene, the answer is "yes." As for whether or not Shepard is "ours," I addressed that in my previous post; the illusion was mostly shattered in ME2 if it was ever there at all. I'm not much of a purist about anything, let alone role-playing, and even if you are a role-playing purist, ME was always the wrong place to scratch that itch. The cinematic style was in its DNA from the beginning. ME has always been more Wing Commander than it was Baldur's Gate.

[KaiserShep]

I always thought the worst case of loyalty-related death was Zaeed, because if he dies in ME3, he dies to the sound of the Presidium ambient theme. What a way to go.

[Jorji Costava]

I always thought the worst case of loyalty-related death was Zaeed, because if he dies in ME3, he dies to the sound of the Presidium ambient theme. What a way to go.

 

Yeah, I always found the "disloyal=dead" mechanic introduced in ME2 and carried into ME3 to be one of the more questionable decisions of the series.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I always thought the worst case of loyalty-related death was Zaeed, because if he dies in ME3, he dies to the sound of the Presidium ambient theme. What a way to go.

 

Hell, Miranda's is arguably worse (though not nearly as senseless).

 

Her being unloyal (or if you break up with her) somehow makes her more allergic to Kai Leng's sword.

[KaiserShep]

I've only romanced her once, and I didn't break up with her in ME3 so I don't remember, but doesn't she not meet up with Shepard again if you break it off right away, thus denying the warning about Kai Leng?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I've only romanced her once, and I didn't break up with her in ME3 so I don't remember, but doesn't she not meet up with Shepard again if you break it off right away, thus denying the warning about Kai Leng?

 

No, you can still meet her later. She literally dies because you break up with her.

[KaiserShep]

I guess Shepard's magic comes at a great cost. If it's taken away, you die.

[MegaSovereign]

I don't really get the faceless torso thing. I can't imagine why it would take any more resources to create that brief scene than it would be to create the final shot of ME1.

 

It's definitely a decision based on maximizing cinematic effects.

 

They would have had to do it in-engine to show your custom Shepard. They probably felt like the quality of animations and effects of the ME/UE3 engine weren't good enough. Either that or they wanted to completely avoid graphical glitches on the last few scenes of the game.

[Excella Gionne]

I guess Shepard's magic comes at a great cost. If it's taken away, you die.

Shepard is Jesus. As if the name isn't already symbolic enough. Kneel before Christ! Basically, you took away Miranda's last supper. 

[KaiserShep]

I don't mind the kneeling part, but it's so much better when they're driven before me, and I can hear the lamentations of their women. I always dread the idea of there being an actual cult dedicated to Shepard as some kind of religious figure in the MEU.

[Excella Gionne]

I don't mind the kneeling part, but it's so much better when they're driven before me, and I can hear the lamentations of their women. I always dread the idea of there being an actual cult dedicated to Shepard as some kind of religious figure in the MEU.

The ones who abandoned their duty to join the cult of Shepard. I think the clone is more well aware of this than we thought.

[KaiserShep]

The clone died for its heresy, as did Brooks.

[Excella Gionne]

The clone died for its heresy, as did Brooks.

The Shepard went to go cleanse the heresy by taking out the clone and Brooks with his/her a** woopin'!

[AlanC9]

I always end up saying this every time it comes up...

All logical reasoning based on the evidence we get suggests Shepard is, if not a corpse, on the verge of becoming one with no realistic chance of anything else happening. However reading between the lines and spotting that a pile of tired old storytelling conventions are being used suggests that the opposite is pretty much what's intended. The fact that it relies on those in contradiction to the plain hard fact of what is shown, instead of support of it, is a good part of what makes it a pathetically-done, immensely unsatisfying scene but I don't see any reason to think that it's intended to mean anything other than survival.

 

Sure. ME never relied on logical reasoning in the first place. There's no reason to think that it would suddenly start doing that with the breath clip.

[shodiswe]

When people are trying to create dark stories they keep forgetting that it's the light that creates the contrast and backdrop for the story.

It's an important part of giving it depth and a meaning. If it's all dark people stop caring, if it has a contrast then the darkness gains a meaning, because there is still something worth while to fight for or care about. If it's all dark then it becommes a pointless last stand where you have already lost and no longer cares.

I think the original ME3 release without any of the DLC's pretty much lost it's edge because everything was so cataclysimic that the darkness and grittiness of the story lost it's edge and meaning.

As for the Citadel DLC and the destroy ending. No, I don't think they have any kind of connection.
Just because some guy bought an icecream for his kid before going to Vietnam didn't mean he stood a bigger chance at surviving. There is no magic charms or actions or words that change the course of events. Luckycharms or rituals.

People of course are allowed to make their own interpretations and believe whatever makes them feel better.

[sveners]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at with the whole "visual explanation" angle. There's no visual explanation of why 3,999 paragon points isn't enough to make a given check, either, but that's how it happens. I also remember that after the vent sequence in ME2's suicide mission, a certain squad member can get hit in the gut; if that squad member is loyal, they survive, but if not, they die. No explanation of any sort is provided for why this would happen: Why would loyalty affect the likelihood of dying from a shot to the gut? The point is that the EMS mechanic for the breath scene is not new to ME3's ending; if you're not going to assume that your squadmate actually did die from that shot to the stomach and you're just hallicinating, you shouldn't think that Shepard just dies at the end of the breath scene either.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that it was poorly handled; I'm just saying that if the question is simply whether, as a matter of fact, Shepard survives in the breath scene, the answer is "yes." As for whether or not Shepard is "ours," I addressed that in my previous post; the illusion was mostly shattered in ME2 if it was ever there at all. I'm not much of a purist about anything, let alone role-playing, and even if you are a role-playing purist, ME was always the wrong place to scratch that itch. The cinematic style was in its DNA from the beginning. ME has always been more Wing Commander than it was Baldur's Gate.

 

 

Shepard dies after that breath scene. It is only there as a cruel practical gag from BioWare. Shepard was meant to die in all endings. 

 

How can I say that? Simple. No one will ever be able to prove otherwise. There will never be any more of Shepard. This was literally the final scene we will ever see of that character. If my impression of BioWare/The writers is a negative one, then believing the scene to be a gag is not that far fetched.

 

What happens to Shepard after that scene is literally up to us to decide. And there should be no doubt that there are some of us who simply don't believe Shep will last long. Alan's handwaving about logic notwithstanding.

 

As for roleplaying.... did you ever play ME1? Practically every word from Shepard was of your choosing. You decided who the character was, within the limitations posed by VO/script/time etc. Just like every other RPG ever made. ME2 isn't all that different either, at least when it comes to the character, somewhat. So no, I don't agree that ME was closer to Wing Commander than Baldur's Gate.

 

Optimists believe in best case scenarios. Pessimists believe in worst case scenarios. Not because they choose to, but because it's in their nature.

[Jorji Costava]

Shepard dies after that breath scene. It is only there as a cruel practical gag from BioWare. Shepard was meant to die in all endings. 
 
How can I say that? Simple. No one will ever be able to prove otherwise. There will never be any more of Shepard. This was literally the final scene we will ever see of that character. If my impression of BioWare/The writers is a negative one, then believing the scene to be a gag is not that far fetched.
 
What happens to Shepard after that scene is literally up to us to decide. And there should be no doubt that there are some of us who simply don't believe Shep will last long. Alan's handwaving about logic notwithstanding.

 

The closest thing to a gag in the ending was Refuse, and that was for people (like me) who outright rejected the whole concept of the ending. I seriously doubt the breath scene was intended as a gag. After all,this is the same group of writers who got rid of the Mako when people complained about it, got rid of planet scanning when people complained about it, etc. The abruptness of the breath scene is probably a symptom of limited resources plus the fact that the ending of ME3 was still being put together deep into the 11th hour of production. I don't see any reason to read active malice from the writers towards the player into that scene. If you want to believe that, there's not really anything I can do to stop you, but I don't think that the balance of evidence supports the view that the breath scene is just a joke on the players.
 

As for roleplaying.... did you ever play ME1? Practically every word from Shepard was of your choosing. You decided who the character was, within the limitations posed by VO/script/time etc. Just like every other RPG ever made. ME2 isn't all that different either, at least when it comes to the character, somewhat. So no, I don't agree that ME was closer to Wing Commander than Baldur's Gate.
 
Optimists believe in best case scenarios. Pessimists believe in worst case scenarios. Not because they choose to, but because it's in their nature.

Eh, the extent of roleplaying in ME1 is a bit exaggerated. I seem to remember quite a few dialogue wheels in which three options are offered, but they all result in Shepard saying the same thing (anyone remember "On the double, mister!" from Virmire?). By ME2, you get the forced cooperation with Cerberus, the unavoidable Jack recruitment mission (in which you allow dangerous prisoners to escape in order to recruit a psychopath of questionable value to the overall mission), plus a Paragon/Renegade system that gimps your character if you don't play exactly in accordance with one of two narrowly circumscribed playstyles.

 

Also, there was quite a bit more choice in the old Wing Commander games than most people seem to remember. Wing Commander 3 probably has more genuine branching plot paths than any ME game, and Wing Commander IV even features a dialogue-based boss battle at the end. Flight simulators were among the earlier games to experiment with this sort of thing, possibly because no matter what path you took, the next mission was still set in space, so you didn't need radically different level design for the different paths.

[Reorte]

Sure. ME never relied on logical reasoning in the first place. There's no reason to think that it would suddenly start doing that with the breath clip.

How much that matters though varies hugely, and at such an important moment in the story it matters a great deal.

[dreamgazer]

How much that matters though varies hugely, and at such an important moment in the story it matters a great deal.

 

Eh, in ME1, the council chamber gets leveled head-on with a massive piece of debris from Sovereign that should have killed anything and everything in its path, yet the survival of Shepard and crew was casually hand-waved. 

[AlanC9]

How much that matters though varies hugely, and at such an important moment in the story it matters a great deal.

 

Why does it suddenly start mattering then? Why is the ending of ME3 being held to a different standard than the beginning of ME2, or the ending of ME1?

 

I can see going with this if you want to do it -- if you're just plain tired of all the miraculous luck and want Shepard's luck to finally run out for real. The mystery for me is when a player who doesn't want to think this way nevertheless thinks this way.

 

I'll make an exception for players who are so emotionally traumatized by the ending that they simply can't imagine anything positive in the ending. That I could understand, although I don't think all that many of us were in such bad condition. Most of those posts sound like posturing to me.