561 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

I'm glad that you are so angry with me right now that you're nitpicking my choice of words.

 

I'm speaking of customer feedback and asking women what we want.  Why do you have a problem with that?  Don't you want that same option?

 

I'm not angry with you at all.  I understand that you don't like your options.  I think that it's perfectly fine to not like your option.  I think it's perfectly fine to express to the developers what you would like to see instead. 

 

I also think it's disingenuous to claim that you don't have options when you do, but you just don't like them.  Or to put forward that you have had less/worse options than groups of people who have had considerably less.  But, that's just my opinion.  It's the hyperbole that I find an issue, that's all.

[Statare]

The difference between Sky and Juhani was that we could get to the same-sex content with Sky , even if it required a bit of effort to see it. Whereas with Juhani that was nit possible. Initially I was in complete agreement with you: that Bioware chose to make her the first lesbian character in Star Wars matters. But I think now there's a lot to be said for a character only being an example of representation if we can actually tell what she's representing. Juhani went beyond poor and into invisible - she was like Dumbledore.

 

That's true that she was hidden behind layers, but she also did express desire (poorly, if you could get it to trigger). Dumbledore gave basically 0 indication he was interested in men. J.K. Rowling had to explicitly say it for him, where as Juhani at least had a vocalization. So they both weren't great, but they aren't the same thing either.

[daveliam]

The difference between Sky and Juhani was that we could get to the same-sex content with Sky , even if it required a bit of effort to see it. Whereas with Juhani that was nit possible. Initially I was in complete agreement with you: that Bioware chose to make her the first lesbian character in Star Wars matters. But I think now there's a lot to be said for a character only being an example of representation if we can actually tell what she's representing. Juhani went beyond poor and into invisible - she was like Dumbledore.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you can access her content in the game.  She expresses her interest in a relationship with female Revan (only).  They agree to explore it together after they deal with Malek.  I can get behind the idea that she might not count as a "full romance", but she certainly has to count as a lesbian.

 

[Ryzaki]

Alright can someone anyone please correct the concern in the title. Am I the only one bothered by that? /pet peeves all over the place

 

Seriously though straight females are fine atm. Bull and Cullen are 2 choices and they should be different enough in personality. I would like Solas to round it out but either way.

[In Exile]

That's true that she was hidden behind layers, but she also did express desire (poorly, if you could get it to trigger). Dumbledore gave basically 0 indication he was interested in men. J.K. Rowling had to explicitly say it for him, where as Juhani at least had a vocalization. So they both weren't great, but they aren't the same thing either.

 

If I have to find a youtube video years later to see the content, then it doesn't really count in the same way. It would be the same as, say, JK Rowling showing us a draft chapter where she had Dumbledore reminisce back to a previous M/M relationship. I come back to the fact that the fanbase has to experience a character in a real and substantial way to say that she is representative of a particular group. 

[In Exile]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you can access her content in the game.  She expresses her interest in a relationship with female Revan (only).  They agree to explore it together after they deal with Malek.  I can get behind the idea that she might not count as a "full romance", but she certainly has to count as a lesbian.

 

Unmodded? My understanding was that it wasn't part of the vanilla game? 

[daveliam]

If I have to find a youtube video years later to see the content, then it doesn't really count in the same way. It would be the same as, say,

 

But I didn't have to find the youtube video to see the content.  I have a lesbian Revan playthrough saved on my Xbox right now.  It's obscure, but  not non-existent and should in no way mean that she's somehow not a lesbian anymore.  Like she's not "gay enough".  That's an unfortunate way to look at it.

 

 

 

If I have to find a youtube video years later to see the content, then it doesn't really count in the same way. It would be the same as, say, JK Rowling showing us a draft chapter where she had Dumbledore reminisce back to a previous M/M relationship. I come back to the fact that the fanbase has to experience a character in a real and substantial way to say that she is representative of a particular group. 

 

It's modded for her looks, but that dialogue exists in the Xbox version of the game.  I know for sure.  100% positive because I've played it.

[Alan Rickman]

Alright can someone anyone please correct the concern in the title. Am I the only one bothered by that? /pet peeves all over the place

 

Seriously though straight females are fine atm. Bull and Cullen are 2 choices and they should be different enough in personality. I would like Solas to round it out but either way.

 

I'm more bothered by the fact that every time I glance over the thread title, I read that first word as something very different.

[Statare]

If I have to find a youtube video years later to see the content, then it doesn't really count in the same way. It would be the same as, say, JK Rowling showing us a draft chapter where she had Dumbledore reminisce back to a previous M/M relationship. I come back to the fact that the fanbase has to experience a character in a real and substantial way to say that she is representative of a particular group. 

 

True.

 

Unmodded? My understanding was that it wasn't part of the vanilla game? 

 

It does not trigger very well. I went through the Juhani romance when I was very young. It's why I play BioWare games to this day actually. I play no other videogames... now I feel like I've outed myself as not really a gamer.

 

In that way I think Juhani is more similar to Kaidan, really, than Dumbledore. Because J.K. Rowling was not trying to reveal Dumbledore's sexuality. Both Juhani and Kaidan were intended to be obvious, but were censored somewhere along the line. Rowling arguably wanted to keep Dumbledore's sexuality secret.

 

Edit: Kaidan had some dialogue in ME1 that was in the game but no accessible implying he at one point was intended as a m/m romance as well. 

[Ryzaki]

I'm more bothered by the fact that every time I glance over the thread title, I read that first word as something very different.

 

Oh wow. Can't unsee. D:

[Fast Jimmy]

True.
 

 
It does not trigger very well. I went through the Juhani romance when I was very young. It's why I play BioWare games to this day actually. I play no other videogames... now I feel like I've outed myself as not really a gamer.
 
In that way I think Juhani is more similar to Kaidan, really, than Dumbledore. Because J.K. Rowling was not trying to reveal Dumbledore's sexuality. Both Juhani and Kaidan were intended to be obvious, but were censored somewhere along the line. Rowling arguably wanted to keep Dumbledore's sexuality secret.

Kaiden was intended to be obviously gay? When he spoke in multiple conversations about the girl he used to love?

I must have really bad gay-dar, then. I'm looking at ALL the wrong things.

[Statare]

Kaiden was intended to be obviously gay? When he spoke in multiple conversations about the girl he used to love?

I must have really bad gay-dar, then. I'm looking at ALL the wrong things.

 

He had dialogue in ME1 that was cut. Sorry. Wasn't being clear.

 

Edit: and by cut I mean in the game files but inaccessible by normal means.

[Fast Jimmy]

He had dialogue in ME1 that was cut. Sorry. Wasn't being clear.
 
Edit: and by cut I mean in the game files but inaccessible by normal means.

Ah, gotcha. Was the dialogue a full romance with male Shephard, or just hints?

[Statare]

Ah, gotcha. Was the dialogue a full romance with male Shephard, or just hints?

 

It was fully voiced male Shepard dialogue with Kaidan. I think all the Kaidan lines were cut, but male Shepard has voice files to flirt with Kaidan.

[Enigmatick]

Ah, gotcha. Was the dialogue a full romance with male Shephard, or just hints?

Nevermind

[daveliam]

Ah, gotcha. Was the dialogue a full romance with male Shephard, or just hints?

 

Unless I'm mistaken, there was no m/m specific dialogue from Kaidan.  It was just that they had Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale record lines for both Ashley and Kaidan romances and then decided to lock out the romances by gating them by gender. 

[In Exile]

He had dialogue in ME1 that was cut. Sorry. Wasn't being clear.

 

Edit: and by cut I mean in the game files but inaccessible by normal means.

 

That dialogue wasn't a sign of M/M intent as much as it was getting the VA to read all lines of dialogue to make sure they didn't miss anything, even opposite gender dialogue. That's why we have MShepard being shocked at Liara's proposition with (might not be a direct quote) saying "But I'm a woman?"

[DaySeeker]

He had dialogue in ME1 that was cut. Sorry. Wasn't being clear.

 

Edit: and by cut I mean in the game files but inaccessible by normal means.

 

Not quite true.  The voice actors (male and female) were given the same script and read all of it even though some of the lines were not for their character.  The lines were all recorded, but only the appropriate ones (nongay Shep)were used in the game.

[In Exile]

Unless I'm mistaken, there was no m/m specific dialogue from Kaidan.  It was just that they had Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale record lines for both Ashley and Kaidan romances and then decided to lock out the romances by gating them by gender. 

 

That said, I thought the way they set up that scene with Shepard approaching Kaiden, those riduculous lights and Kaiden whipping the sweat of his brow was just so chock-full of sexual tension it became kind of unintentionally hilarious. 

[daveliam]

That said, I thought the way they set up that scene with Shepard approaching Kaiden, those riduculous lights and Kaiden whipping the sweat of his brow was just so chock-full of sexual tension it became kind of unintentionally hilarious. 

 

Without a doubt.  The sexual tension between those guys, coupled with "Losing you was like losing a limb", makes me at everyone who was "shocked" by his bisexuality in ME 3.  I thought he was bisexual from the first time he wiped his brow.

[Ryzaki]

Without a doubt.  The sexual tension between those guys, coupled with "Losing you was like losing a limb", makes me at everyone who was "shocked" by his bisexuality in ME 3.  I thought he was bisexual from the first time he wiped his brow.

 

Oh god yes.

 

That limb conversation was just so painfully awkward.

[Statare]

Still the issue is that Juhani made it into the actual game as a female character that expresses desire for another female character. It was not good. And we should remember that. But you can't erase her because it presents a convenient argument if you do.

 

BioWare has been just as guilty as most video-game developers of making mistakes or poorly representing characters who are  not straight white guys, but they've got precedent of including content.

 

Can't just ignore the efforts the efforts they have made and compare them to things that are completely different (Dumbledore) just like you can't ignore how their efforts have been lackluster (like seriously, they haven't had obviously lesbian and gay characters in a DA game until the third game, that's pretty awful).

 

Edit: wording. My english is terrible today.

[Lucky Thirteen]

First off, I agree that ME3 was horrible. I agree that Bioware/game industry has a history of favoring the straight male half.

 

However, I've always felt the team for the Dragon Age series at least does something about it. They have a lot of women on the team especially in the writing department ( though I wish some of them would take center stage like Gaider, and not because a bunch of angry white straight males are trying to destroy her). In DA2 they really did fan service to hell and back for female fans as much as they fan serviced for the male half (Which perceptively pissed off the male half).

 

Though I agree, the broody, dark, over dramatic male character has run it's course, I got official sick of Anders crap with Legacy and as much as I liked Fenris, I'd rather not see another like him. Sebastian was an up, but because of my own Christian upbringing around guys like that, meh. I loved Thane from the Mass Effect series for only appearing to be in that broody boat but not really unless you screwed up his loyalty mission.

 

As a straight woman, I honestly can't say I feel super strong about any of the male characters presented so far, but as I've said before I'm taking everything with a grain of salt and waiting to see the full game. If I ultimately don't like any of them for romantic plot, that's okay because other people seem to like them alot and if they are well rounded characters, I'll be happy. The female characters seem extremely awesome so far, and Sera is my favorite so far. If the female characters are completely awful in the full game, then I'll be feminist pissed.

 

Some of my favorite RPGS in the world, don't have romance subplot period (Though KOTOR2 falls under favoring the male half so much that the female half literally has nothing, not even a lesbian option). So it's not the end of the world for me, especially since fan fiction can fix that if I feel like writing something in. (The courier and Boone totally hooked up a few years after New Vegas)

 

As much as I see the cause of your concern here, I have to agree with the others that it's more of a "No one is my cup of tea" complaint than a gender equality endeavor.  This game is not like ME3 in which a male LI just random cheats and leaves because he can't possibly be expected to wait like the ten other LI do, and another that just ultimately exists for a death scene only. Then both are replaced with more options for male Shepard. They have made the numbers pretty equal so far and thus equal just makes it feel more limited.

 

People complained too much about everyone being a bisexual option (and in my opinion the only person that really constantly made it that apparent was Isabela), now instead of having about a dozen options, you only get about two, if that even, while Bioware tries to get something specific in for everyone's specific sexuality. 

 

People either need to just deal with it or get over the whole bisexual thing.

[daveliam]

Oh god yes.

 

That limb conversation was just so painfully awkward.

 

Not for my Shep.  It was music to his ears!

[Enigmatick]

Still the issue is that Juhani made it into the actual game as a female character that expresses desire for another female character. It was not good. And we should remember that. But you can't erase her because it presents a convenient argument if you do.

 

BioWare has been just as guilty as most video-game developers of making mistakes or poorly representing characters who are  not straight white guys, but they've got precedent of including content.

 

Can't just ignore the efforts the efforts they have made and compare them to things that are completely different (Dumbledore) just like you can't ignore how their efforts have been lackluster (like seriously, they haven't had obviously lesbian and gay characters in a DA game until the third game, that's pretty awful).

 

Edit: wording. My english is terrible today.

Define "obviously", have you ever played Fallout:NV?