561 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Yeah, I've never heard a gay male call Bioware's m/m LIs "gay for the sake of being gay". Assuming we're counting bi males and not just Steve/Dorian, I don't think the options have been especially cartoonish and I definitely don't think they were demeaning. The options in Bioware games for m/m relationships have been quite varied even with such a small selection. I don't understand how they're coming to that conclusion. If we're just counting Steve and Dorian, it makes even less sense. How Steve could offend anyone in characterization is beyond me. We know so little about Dorian that I have to assume people are filling in their own reason, if they find him offensive.

[daveliam]

Yeah, the "gay for the sake of being gay" argument seems silly too.  There have really only been Wade, Herren, Steve, and Dorian in the games.  Yeah, Wade and Herren could be seen as a bit "stereotypical", but that's the thing that many people don't understand:  stereotypes exist for a reason.  There are many gay guys who identify with a Wade or Herren type.  I didn't see anything offensive about them at all.  Steve is the complete opposite.  He's about as "straight acting" as they come.  Swap out gender pronouns and no one would blink an eye.  Dorian, we don't know enough about.  I'm not really seeing patterns in those four men's behaviors.  It seems like a natural and realistic variety of behaviors for a group of gay men to show.  I'd be interested in hearing what people who take that stance use as their evidence for that argument, though.  Could be interesting. 

[OrayMoor]

Again I have no problem with romancing a bi companion, I have a problem because everybody exept female got an exclusive companion. Its really easy to say this attitued needs to stop when your not on the losing side. Its funny because if the situation was revursed and Dorian was a NPC, and Cullen was a copanion I bet 100$ gay man would have coplained about it. 

 

Socaity see the defoult as being strait because the majority of the people in the world are strait. If you have a game where the protagonist does not show a sxsual preference, you can see him has strait or gay the choice is yours. And a guy who constantly bangs woman in a video game is a huge womans problem too.

 

I dont think you have to sleep with people as  Garelt, I think you can go though the entier game without romancing anybody...

 

In my opinion Bioware is pretty close to equlety in the treatment of woman in thier game, but there are still some problems. Isabella told Avelin in a bartern that she was called an old **** many times because of her attitued toward sex. But people wouldnt dare to call Zevran and the Iron bull sluts, even though thier attitude toward sex is exctly the same as Isabella. + I find the description "He sleeps with everyone he is fearly sure he wont break" so discusting.

[daveliam]

Again I have no problem with romancing a bi companion, I have a problem because everybody exept female got an exclusive companion. Its really easy to say this attitued needs to stop when your not on the losing side. Its funny because if the situation was revursed and Dorian was a NPC, and Cullen was a copanion I bet 100$ gay man would have coplained about it.

Socaity see the defoult as being strait because the majority of the people in the world are strait. If you have a game where the protagonist does not show a sxsual preference, you can see him has strait or gay the choice is yours. And a guy who constantly bangs woman in a video game is a huge womans problem too.

I dont think you have to sleep with people as Garelt, I think you can go though the entier game without romancing anybody...

In my opinion Bioware is pretty close to equlety in the treatment of woman in thier game, but there are still some problems. Isabella told Avelin in a bartern that she was called an old **** many times because of her attitued toward sex. But people wouldnt dare to call Zevran and the Iron bull sluts, even though thier attitude toward sex is exctly the same as Isabella. + I find the description "He sleeps with everyone he is fearly sure he wont break" so discusting.

Gay and lesbian players DID have to deal with not having a companion exclusive in ME 3. For the most part, the general attitude was, 'Yay! I cant believe that there are FINALLY exclusive romances for us!" Of course, there was some concern that both of the gay exclusive romances were NPCs, but in general, it was more positive than negative. Especially with Steve, since he was the only gay male LI EVER to that point.

Most games assume that male PCs are straight and have some seemingly innocuous opposite sex flirts that send a pretty clear message to LBGT gamers. Even the examples given earlier like Zelda. There's no 'romance' function in the game but the entire series revolves around a straight romance trope. Your example of the Witcher is way off too. Yes, you might be able to avoid initiating a romance in the game but the very first scene is a clothed Geralt post-coitus with a full-frontally nude Tess in his bed. It's pretty damned clear what's going on there.

The same way that women have been excluded, so have gay men. The only difference is that many developers now recognize that female representation is necessary (even if some don't....side eye at the new Assassin Creed game), but very few games let you play as a gay character. And even fewer let you play a scripted gay romance. Bioware is, literally, the only company that allows this that I know of.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Again I have no problem with romancing a bi companion, I have a problem because everybody exept female got an exclusive companion. Its really easy to say this attitued needs to stop when your not on the losing side.

 

I don't see how we're on 'the losing side' when we're probably going to be getting the same number of romances as everyone else. I don't care if any of them are exclusively straight. And I certainly don't mind that it looks like we'll get two bisexual male companions and a straight advisor.

 

(Not that we actually know that it's going to be two straight/four bisexual/two gay, distribution-wise, but it seems to make sense.)

[ElitePinecone]

Any examples in particular?  I can't speak on behalf of gay men, though my experiences are not really in alignment with yours.  I've seen a variety, but I don't usually see gay men complain about a character that is "gay for the sake of being gay" in our games (especially regarding gay men, since they have been so few and far between).

 

The weirdest thing about that criticism is that the games have never had a significant gay character. Ever. Dorian is literally the first one. 

 

How can people be complaining about stereotypes for characters that don't exist? Zevran was bisexual (and at the time his promiscuity was criticised, but I think David was going for a libidinous assassin), and Anders and Fenris were ambiguous or "playersexual". None of them felt like stereotypes, to me, and in Zevran's case he subverted them entirely if you could look past the shield he'd built around himself. 

 

I feel like the criticism of Bioware's "gay" characters (even if many are actually bisexual) is less about genuine concern for gay players and more just flat-out discomfort with homosexuality. The "gay for the sake of being gay" complaint seems like a thinly-veiled "I don't like this, get it out of my face or stop forcing it down my throat" line. As if it's fine for those characters to exist, as long as they never mention their sexuality, proposition the player, talk about romance or bring up a past relationship - which is an impossible standard that literally none of Bioware's romances could ever meet.

 

And if it's some gay players that find fault with Bioware's same-sex romances, why is it being treated as a big deal? They hardly speak for every gay fan, or every fan interested in the same-sex content, and grumbling about every single character is what fans do. The day a love interest or a companion receives universal praise and admiration is the day I'll eat my hat.

[DisturbedJim83]

Still don't agree... gay men have consistently been a part of the demographic that we have overlooked, especially in the realm of romances.  Straight men?  Absolutely we cater towards them.  But you also specifically called out that we now cater towards gay men. I have to ask what makes you think that we now cater towards gay men.

I think some peoples problems are the feeling that with both Dorian and Sera BW is doing the proverbial "dangling the carrot on the stick"Both characters seem to have been designed at least physically to be attractive to the opposite sex,the fact that their sexuality was not confirmed straight away but allowed to "stew" and percolate threw the fanbase meant that by the time they were confirmed as gay I doubt any BW staff could say they were unaware of the straight community wanting to romance these characters.

 

I think the main issue revolves around the timing of the reveal of their sexuality by delaying the reveal it gives the impression that BW effectively watched the straight community "swoon" over Dorian and Sera only to essentially go "can't touch this"( in a MC Hammer Voice) 

This was likely never BW's intent however this is how its perceived.

[ElitePinecone]

Both characters seem to have been designed at least physically to be attractive to the opposite sex,

 

What about their designs specifically makes them attractive to the opposite sex, rather than the same sex? Can you tell a character's orientation from their appearance? 

 

And if people are genuinely upset about not being able to romance Sera and Dorian - let alone if they actually think it's a conspiracy designed to frustrate and annoy straight players - I guess they'll just have to... move on? I mean, I understand and empathise with the situation, but nobody can get everything they want. Feeling left out is hardly a new experience for players that hoped for female-female and male-male romances in Bioware's games, we should keep in mind. 

 

Perhaps a better lesson from this is to not assume a character's sexuality when you first lay eyes on them. That works for fictional people and real people, too!

[DaySeeker]

Again I have no problem with romancing a bi companion, I have a problem because everybody exept female got an exclusive companion. Its really easy to say this attitued needs to stop when your not on the losing side. Its funny because if the situation was revursed and Dorian was a NPC, and Cullen was a copanion I bet 100$ gay man would have coplained about it. 

 

Socaity see the defoult as being strait because the majority of the people in the world are strait. If you have a game where the protagonist does not show a sxsual preference, you can see him has strait or gay the choice is yours. And a guy who constantly bangs woman in a video game is a huge womans problem too.

 

I dont think you have to sleep with people as  Garelt, I think you can go though the entier game without romancing anybody...

 

In my opinion Bioware is pretty close to equlety in the treatment of woman in thier game, but there are still some problems. Isabella told Avelin in a bartern that she was called an old **** many times because of her attitued toward sex. But people wouldnt dare to call Zevran and the Iron bull sluts, even though thier attitude toward sex is exctly the same as Isabella. + I find the description "He sleeps with everyone he is fearly sure he wont break" so discusting.

 

Pretty much all of this is wrong, and I don't know why we're having a argument about who the bigger victim is.  One, not all of the romanced companions have ben fully anounced, meaning we do not know who is open to what kind of romance.  Yes, the gay characters were announced at the beginning, hooray- usually we have to wait until the game is shipped to find out if we are even represented.  

 

Also, everyone is presumed straight unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.  Usually it is implicitly shown through flirty interactions, (female) character models, and other means that the protagonist is the epitome of masculinity and heterosexuality.  If any character that anyone else finds attractive is found not to be straight there are complaints ranging from, "Too bad, what a waste," to "Horrror! Shame! Debauchery!"  I think it is very safe to assume, that like in every other game with romance in it that there will be straight only romance options, therefore, Bioware not announcing them means they haven't been announced YET, not that they don't exist.

 

As to Zeveren there were complaints about his attitude towards sex AND his being the only option available to gay men because it seemed to adhere to some of the worst stereotypes.  Also, some folks didn't like him because of his attitude.  Isabella was met with similar criticism, although she got some costume complaints too.  However, both characters were true to themselves, unashamed of their behavior, and aware of its drawbacks, and both used their sexuality as power given the postions they were in where they were disadvantaged, Isabella taking a male dominated profession, Zev being an enslaved elf.  Neither let themselves be victims.

[daveliam]

The weirdest thing about that criticism is that the games have never had a significant gay character. Ever. Dorian is literally the first one. 

 

How can people be complaining about stereotypes for characters that don't exist? Zevran was bisexual (and at the time his promiscuity was criticised, but I think David was going for a libidinous assassin), and Anders and Fenris were ambiguous or "playersexual". None of them felt like stereotypes, to me, and in Zevran's case he subverted them entirely if you could look past the shield he'd built around himself. 

 

I feel like the criticism of Bioware's "gay" characters (even if many are actually bisexual) is less about genuine concern for gay players and more just flat-out discomfort with homosexuality. The "gay for the sake of being gay" complaint seems like a thinly-veiled "I don't like this, get it out of my face or stop forcing it down my throat" line. As if it's fine for those characters to exist, as long as they never mention their sexuality, proposition the player, talk about romance or bring up a past relationship - which is an impossible standard that literally none of Bioware's romances could ever meet.

 

And if it's some gay players that find fault with Bioware's same-sex romances, why is it being treated as a big deal? They hardly speak for every gay fan, or every fan interested in the same-sex content, and grumbling about every single character is what fans do. The day a love interest or a companion receives universal praise and admiration is the day I'll eat my hat.

Pretty much all of this is wrong, and I don't know why we're having a argument about who the bigger victim is.  One, not all of the romanced companions have ben fully anounced, meaning we do not know who is open to what kind of romance.  Yes, the gay characters were announced at the beginning, hooray- usually we have to wait until the game is shipped to find out if we are even represented.  

 

Also, everyone is presumed straight unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.  Usually it is implicitly shown through flirty interactions, (female) character models, and other means that the protagonist is the epitome of masculinity and heterosexuality.  If any character that anyone else finds attractive is found not to be straight there are complaints ranging from, "Too bad, what a waste," to "Horrror! Shame! Debauchery!"  I think it is very safe to assume, that like in every other game with romance in it that there will be straight only romance options, therefore, Bioware not announcing them means they haven't been announced YET, not that they don't exist.

 

As to Zeveren there were complaints about his attitude towards sex AND his being the only option available to gay men because it seemed to adhere to some of the worst stereotypes.  Also, some folks didn't like him because of his attitude.  Isabella was met with similar criticism, although she got some costume complaints too.  However, both characters were true to themselves, unashamed of their behavior, and aware of its drawbacks, and both used their sexuality as power given the postions they were in where they were disadvantaged, Isabella taking a male dominated profession, Zev being an enslaved elf.  Neither let themselves be victims.

 

Damnit.  Stop posting excellent points.  I'm out of likes!

[Schreckstoff]

I dont think you have to sleep with people as Garelt, I think you can go though the entier game without romancing anybody...

Geralt starts TW2 in bed with Triss, you sleep with Triss aplenty w/o input I don't know though if that depends on seducing her early on. Gerald doesn't really do romance often though.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think some peoples problems are the feeling that with both Dorian and Sera BW is doing the proverbial "dangling the carrot on the stick"Both characters seem to have been designed at least physically to be attractive to the opposite sex,the fact that their sexuality was not confirmed straight away but allowed to "stew" and percolate threw the fanbase meant that by the time they were confirmed as gay I doubt any BW staff could say they were unaware of the straight community wanting to romance these characters.

 

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a significant overlap between "attractive to the opposite sex" and "attractive to the same sex."  Some feel we did the same for Cassandra in that she is "clearly bisexual" and whatnot.  Maybe Cassandra is just, in general, reasonably attractive to a lot of men and women?

 

I suspect there's a lot of the straight community that wants to romance any of the characters.  Same goes for the gay community.

[Ajna]

I'd swap them all for Varric

[Statare]

 

*snip*

 

In my opinion Bioware is pretty close to equlety in the treatment of woman in thier game, but there are still some problems. Isabella told Avelin in a bartern that she was called an old **** many times because of her attitued toward sex. But people wouldnt dare to call Zevran and the Iron bull sluts, even though thier attitude toward sex is exctly the same as Isabella. + I find the description "He sleeps with everyone he is fearly sure he wont break" so discusting.

 

Yeah there is definitely a double standard when it comes to promiscuous male and female characters. Yet, Zevran does not come out of revealing his sexuality unscathed. He asks the Warden if he is "ok" with it and mostly refers to things in innuendo or vagueness. He also focuses on his relationship with a single, particular woman (which seems strange for a polyamorous, bisexual character). Zevran is not given the label of a prostitute or **** like Isabella, but there is some implied shame put on him, and today we would call what he went through being pulled into "sex trafficking." The issue of agency has been complicated to the point that choice/desire are questioned, and so his sexuality gets tangled with issues of victimization (furthered by his romance arc, which is presented as a process of healing (and his wounds are tied to his sexuality...)). "Successfully" romanced, Zevran will not sleep around again (except in a certain notorious bug). Isabella is treated more explicitly like a sex object in some instances (references to boats, calling her a prostitute), explicitly sure, and subjected to a bit more ridicule, but I'd not say that Zevran's sexuality and promiscuousness were treated with kid gloves or glorified. It's presented as something he can "get over" and not something that is a part of him.

 

We know very little about the Iron Bull, but I do wonder why his sexuality is presented as dangerous. It strikes me as a way to give the Iron Bull more agency and "choice" (he thinks about who he sleeps with and will turn "weak" people down) and a reflection of his physical power, where as Zevran and Isabella were often dealing with what they got for situational reasons. It also keeps his relationships neatly in the "just physical" range, which in male characters emphasizes virility and manliness over sentimentality (which is bad for any macho character, but especially bad if such sentimentality involves amorous relations between two men). So another case of a potential double standard. Imagine if a female character was described that way, would people be slinging around comparisons to prostitution? Maybe. But that is speculative. When the game comes out there might be things that complicate this issue further.

 

There are things that feel "inevitable" about the three characters you mentioned, and I think those are completely valid things to call into question, but as Solas (might) say, "it's more complicated than that."

[DaySeeker]

I'm having a little trouble seeing where you're coming down on the Isabella question, Statare.  Isabella likes sex, and her banter with Aveline, where Aveline calls makes fun of her promiscuity is the opposite of Merrill expressing admiration, at which point Isabella points out it's not all glamor.  Isabella also tells Aveline she has been turned down and insulted many times.  I think Isabella and Zev use their sexualities in the same way or are taught to orginally to take control of their own lives.  Both find joy in it and both recoginze pain in it as well.  I don't see a double standard.

 

I don't know enough about Iron Bull, and I haven't seen the "dangerous" quote you refer to, but from the little we've seen of his personality he comes across as a "drink life to the leas" type guy, so I can see him taking sex when he can get it.  I am curious to see Solas view of sex since he seems to be in a nonphysical realm most of the time.  As far as sentimentality, if one is not in situations where one can form lasting relationships of any kind (cast from your culture, mercanary life, war) I would see little chance for sentimentality as relationships are short-lived; I don't see that as a function of masculinity, although traditionally men have had trouble forming deep relationships, and were told that was a woman's responsibility, or that the only place that is valid is with a woman.  I hope Iron Bull is not what you fear he is.

[ElitePinecone]

Iron Bull apparently has some lingering trauma relating to past experiences (Patrick talked about studying cases of PTSD when writing the character) so I could just as easily see his "drink everything, steal everything, sleep with everyone" as a coping mechanism, as much as it is his "live life to the fullest" personality. 

 

I also don't see the double standard with Isabela at all - the devs have been pretty clear that her character was someone who enjoyed sex, but recognised the complexity of using it, and the game didn't portray her in an overly negative light at all. It showed us her character and other characters' reactions to her, and let us make our own interpretation. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a significant overlap between "attractive to the opposite sex" and "attractive to the same sex."  Some feel we did the same for Cassandra in that she is "clearly bisexual" and whatnot.  Maybe Cassandra is just, in general, reasonably attractive to a lot of men and women?

 

I suspect there's a lot of the straight community that wants to romance any of the characters.  Same goes for the gay community.

I believe this is absolutely true. I've seen a concerning amount of posts assuming what gay men like, especially.. although that may be a false impression I'm getting based on an influx of posts by one or two people. There is no "gay type" and it's pretty crazy that people assume this. There are gay and bi males that are attracted to literally every type of male, and the same is true with straight people. I've seen different gay guys on the BSN alone hoping and praying for literally every male companion to be an LI. There really is no way to cater to every gay person or every straight person and there's no way to avoid some people being let down if you have set sexualities. You'd literally have to announce sexualities before you even showed us the characters and, even then, there'd be people that took issue to the choices.

 

What I think is important is that everyone gets a roughly equal amount of choices and content for those choices. It would be nice to try to offer variety here and there. Otherwise, people expecting their personal interests catered to are really expecting too much. Doing so is someone else's disappointment. I've just come to realize that a lot of people genuinely don't realize that their preferences aren't necessarily shared by the vast majority of people in or out of their demographic. They legitimately believe a character they find unappealing is a slight to the entire community. Personally, I admit that I was surprised when I realized how many people were romantically interested in Iron Bull and then I realized it was just my own limited perception at flaw, but some people will just sit and argue with the facts no matter how many people come in and tell them the character has a huge fanbase that doesn't see it their way. I'm still a little baffled by that attitude. 

[daveliam]

 There is no "gay type" and it's pretty crazy that people assume this. There are gay and bi males that are attracted to literally every type of male, and the same is true with straight people. I've seen different gay guys on the BSN alone hoping and praying for literally every male companion to be an LI.

 

I think that you and I are perfect examples of this, if I have accurately represented your preferences.

 

You:  Dorian, Cullen, and Solas; wants younger options

Me:  Dorian, Iron Bull, and Blackwall; wants older options

 

At least Dorian sits in the middle of the Venn Diagram that represents our preferences in m/m romances!

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think that you and I are perfect examples of this, if I have accurately represented your preferences.

 

You:  Dorian, Cullen, and Solas; wants younger options

Me:  Dorian, Iron Bull, and Blackwall; wants older options

 

At least Dorian sits in the middle of the Venn Diagram that represents our preferences in m/m romances!

Yeah, seems about right! I would like this if I could, but I ran out today. 

[displayname]

Any examples in particular?  I can't speak on behalf of gay men, though my experiences are not really in alignment with yours.  I've seen a variety, but I don't usually see gay men complain about a character that is "gay for the sake of being gay" in our games (especially regarding gay men, since they have been so few and far between).

For Dorian, it was said that as a character he seemed to have been created for the sake of being fully gay. I think the exact wording of the post went something like Bioware created Dorian less to have a functional character as much as a fully gay character that exists just to have a character that is fully gay. The arrogance (being suave), as it was perceived of Dorian, doesn't make him an interesting character due to the fact that his sexuality seems to be more attuned towards being gay instead of a character in a world that is gay. Or something along those lines.

 

A few other posts mentioned how the character is a Mage and they didn't like the correlation between being a mage while also being fully gay character, and they cited their perception of Gaiders writing allegory. As well as some talk about how the character orientations are locked.  

 

That's about all I can remember. 

[DisturbedJim83]

I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a significant overlap between "attractive to the opposite sex" and "attractive to the same sex."  Some feel we did the same for Cassandra in that she is "clearly bisexual" and whatnot.  Maybe Cassandra is just, in general, reasonably attractive to a lot of men and women?

 

I suspect there's a lot of the straight community that wants to romance any of the characters.  Same goes for the gay community.

Well its not really a complaint as such,even though my initial thought when it was revealed that Sera was gay was"oh shoot first none emo female elf and she's off limits for straight males".Its more of a suggestion that each of the characters sexuality should be revealed at the same time as the initial reveal instead of leaving it ambiguous for a few days/weeks.

 

I think that is part of the problem the delay between the reveal of Sera and Dorian and then the reveal of their sexuality likely inflamed the problem as fans were left to assume that they were straight/bi leading to extreme disappointment when it was revealed that they were gay only.

[Allan Schumacher]

For Dorian, it was said that as a character he seemed to have been created for the sake of being fully gay. I think the exact wording of the post went something like Bioware created Dorian less to have a functional character as much as a fully gay character that exists just to have a character that is fully gay. The arrogance (being suave), as it was perceived of Dorian, doesn't make him an interesting character due to the fact that his sexuality seems to be more attuned towards being gay instead of a character in a world that is gay. Or something along those lines.

 

A few other posts mentioned how the character is a Mage and they didn't like the correlation between being a mage while also being fully gay character, and they cited their perception of Gaiders writing allegory. As well as some talk about how the character orientations are locked.  

 

That's about all I can remember. 

 

In my experience the people that feel that Dorian is "gay just for the sake of being gay" are people that can rationalize that excuse for any gay character's existence.  I'm sure there are some gay men that feel Dorian is ostensibly offensive.  I think it's a bit early to say so, however.  It's still a perspective that I'm not too familiar with seeing a gay man say, however.

 

Dorian is a character in a world that is gay, and that actually provides some level of intrigue given his nature as a Tevinter Mage.

[daveliam]

I think that is part of the problem the delay between the reveal of Sera and Dorian and then the reveal of their sexuality likely inflamed the problem as fans were left to assume that they were straight/bi leading to extreme disappointment when it was revealed that they were gay only.

 

I'm sure that this is a contributing factor to it.  However, the people who saw them and decided over time that they were straight or bisexual, kind of brought it on themselves since there was no evidence at all to suggest their sexualities.  I've done it in the past too, of course.

 

Yeah, seems about right! I would like this if I could, but I ran out today. 

 

Me too.  Did they lower the like count today?  Seems like a lot of us are out.  Maybe we used them all up with the info dump yesterday.

[ElitePinecone]

I've just come to realize that a lot of people genuinely don't realize that their preferences aren't necessarily shared by the vast majority of people in or out of their demographic. They legitimately believe a character they find unappealing is a slight to the entire community. Personally, I admit that I was surprised when I realized how many people were romantically interested in Iron Bull and then I realized it was just my own limited perception at flaw, but some people will just sit and argue with the facts no matter how many people come in and tell them the character has a huge fanbase that doesn't see it their way. I'm still a little baffled by that attitude. 

 

This is very true.

 

I also have to remind myself that my preferences aren't a good guide to what other people will look for in a romanceable character - like you I was surprised at the number of people who ~wanted~ Iron Bull, and to a lesser extent Blackwall, only because I'd struggle to see either of those characters as suitable or "attractive" options.

 

It takes some effort to consciously recognise our own limitations and acknowledge that other people have competing ideas of attractiveness, and perhaps to realise that both those views are valid. 

 

(That said, I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the people who loudly insist that Cassandra or Vivienne could never be attractive to "straight guys", despite the large amount of people who very obviously find them pretty.)

[Statare]

I'm having a little trouble seeing where you're coming down on the Isabella question, Statare.  Isabella likes sex, and her banter with Aveline, where Aveline calls makes fun of her promiscuity is the opposite of Merrill expressing admiration, at which point Isabella points out it's not all glamor.  Isabella also tells Aveline she has been turned down and insulted many times.  I think Isabella and Zev use their sexualities in the same way or are taught to orginally to take control of their own lives.  Both find joy in it and both recoginze pain in it as well.  I don't see a double standard.

 

I don't know enough about Iron Bull, and I haven't seen the "dangerous" quote you refer to, but from the little we've seen of his personality he comes across as a "drink life to the leas" type guy, so I can see him taking sex when he can get it.  I am curious to see Solas view of sex since he seems to be in a nonphysical realm most of the time.  As far as sentimentality, if one is not in situations where one can form lasting relationships of any kind (cast from your culture, mercanary life, war) I would see little chance for sentimentality as relationships are short-lived; I don't see that as a function of masculinity, although traditionally men have had trouble forming deep relationships, and were told that was a woman's responsibility, or that the only place that is valid is with a woman.  I hope Iron Bull is not what you fear he is.

 

I was critiquing what someone said prior to me, that Isabella is unfairly subjected to ridicule for her promiscuity while Zevran was not. I was pointing out the ways Zevran's sexuality is not glorified. I was not coming down on Isabella, I in fact never said much about her other than the truth: she is called things by other people, and those things tried to label her as an object you can buy (an uncouth word for prostitute that gets censored here).

 

Edit: About the Iron Bull, I was pointing out the ways in which he has been described echo machismo culture (I did not use the word because at least in the U.S. people assume that means mexican culture, but it reflects non-hispanic culture as well). Some people may see him as "bacchanal" but I definitely see a lot of sleeze bags who I've slept with. But hey, I'm biased, like everyone else.