231 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Besides fight a war against them, you mean?


And if they told you your place in the Qun was to do something you didn't enjoy for your entire life, you'd be content?

1. No they did not.

2. I have to agree with you no that.

[Aaleel]

Elves stood by and didn't aid humans during one of the blights which caused a lot of ill will towards them.  Then there was that whole exalted march thing on the Dales. 

 

Elves worship something other than the maker and once religion is involved well...

[leaguer of one]

Elves remind me of the Irish kind of. The Irish and the British...

Or every minatory dumped on ever.

[Nyeredzi]

Besides fight a war against them, you mean?


And if they told you your place in the Qun was to do something you didn't enjoy for your entire life, you'd be content?

War against's them? The humans were always planning on destroying them even when the elves said, we are effing off to our own little space eff off, and leave us alone. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

1. No they did not.

Both the elves and the humans agree on one thing: there was a war between them. There was an Exalted March on the Dales.

What they don't agree on is who provoked the other to start the war, which each side naturally blaming the other.

Whether or not we believe the elves are to blame is irrelevant. The history of humans in Thedas claims they were, so that's what the majority of their population will believe.

[Nyeredzi]

Elves stood by and didn't aid humans during one of the blights which caused a lot of ill will towards them.  Then there was that whole exalted march thing on the Dales. 

 

Elves worship something other than the maker and once religion is involved well...

Why the hell would elves help humans, the same bastards who would leave them to the same fate.

 

And its an elven city, for elves.

 

Example: I swear, humans are these neighbors, the dark skinned guy represents the Elves of the Dales

[leaguer of one]

War against's them? The humans were always planning on destroying them even when the elves said, we are effing off to our own little space eff off, and leave us alone. 

More like trying to impost on their culture.

1. Tevintor was the one the ended elven culture and enslaved them with every other human.

2. Then the chantry tried to impose their religion on the Dales and the elfs got feed up and attacked. The chantry then called a march on them and after that had the nerve to strike form the record the involvement of the elves helping Andraste.

[leaguer of one]

Why the hell would elves help humans, the same bastards who would leave them to the same fate.

 

And its an elven city, for elves.

 

Example: I swear, humans are these Australian neighbors.

The elves not helping in a blight is a dick move that makes thing worse for them. Everyone falls to the blight if no one helps.

[Aaleel]

Why the hell would elves help humans, the same bastards who would leave them to the same fate.

 

And its an elven city, for elves.

 

Example: I swear, humans are these Australian neighbors.

snip

 

Calm down, all I did was answer the question of why the human/elf relationship is more hostile than the human/dwarf one.  Most of the ill will really came out after the elves didn't aid anyone during the blight.  Small battles started after that, which turned into full scale war, and ultimately ended with the Exalted March on the Dales.

 

After that elves ended up in slums or as nomadic dalish.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

War against's them? The humans were always planning on destroying them even when the elves said, we are effing off to our own little space eff off, and leave us alone.

Perhaps. But that's not what the humans believed happened and it's not what their history records, so why would they change their minds? Why would they want to believe they were the 'bad guys' all along when their own history said they were fighting the good fight?

People tend to believe what they want to believe.

[NewBlue]

Not everything is about slavery and arbitrary discrimination you know. Thedas gets nothing from elves and gets a lot from the dwarves, that's a clear and non-racial reason for the discrimination exsisting. Its shitty, yes, but I doubt the elves, dwarves, or qunari, would do differently, were they in the humans places.

Also, not all native americans were peaceful, being a scattered people divided into numerous tribes, customs, and believes. Nor were all black people innocent in the slave trade. The "They never did anything to white people back then" is most likely not true, and It's dangerous to generalize any side when discussing things that affect the modern day.

Perhaps I insinuated a bit too much simplicity when generalizing the relationship between the three modern day races as that was not my intention, but let's not get into it too much. As you said that's dangerous territory.

 

Anywhoodle, I do believe in this case it basically does come down to meaningless discrimination. Take the city elves for one, not just the dalish. The city elves seem to do basically all of the noblemens work for them. They serve as servants EVERYWHERE you go. Go into a fortress or palace or somewhere in a sophisticated civilization, in DA:O you will almost always see elves as servants. Not necessarily slaves, but servants. One could very easily assume that if an elf could get a job elsewhere, they would gladly do so.

 

Furthermore, have you ever seen an elven store keeper? Maybe a blacksmith? Outside of the dalish camp? I for one can't recall a single shop run by an elf other than the shop in Denerim, only located in the ELVEN alienage, you see what I mean? It could be argued that elves contribute a very considerable amount compared to the drwarves considering they do almost all of the dirty work in human society.

 

This is all my not-too-well-thought-out opinion of course.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Short answer: Elves are whiny and boring, dwarves are boorish and awesome.

 

Long answer: As already said, elves and humans compete over the surface world. Dwarves stay underground and mind their own business, as well as providing magic crack. Plus with the Darkspawn constantly at their throat they don't have the luxury of pissing off anyone else.

[Nyeredzi]

Perhaps. But that's not what the humans believed happened and it's not what their history records, so why would they change their minds? Why would they want to believe they were the 'bad guys' all along when their own history said they were fighting the good fight?

People tend to believe what they want to believe.

Anyways, no one deserves to be deprived of opportunity. Only to be imprisoned inside the alienage until they die...damn 1700-1950s dejavu

[Schreckstoff]

Why the hell would elves help humans, the same bastards who would leave them to the same fate.

 

And its an elven city, for elves.

 

Example: I swear, humans are these Australian neighbors.

-snip-

 

Wow he's not exactly completely innocent but these guys aren't living in the suburbs for no reason.

[darkmanifest]

Not quite so. Slavery, as we know it with racially motivated and life long terms, was a practice invented by the African nations as a humiliation to their enemies, a byproduct of their caste system. It just so happened the Portuguese came along and managed to persuade a lot of African leaders to sell them other Africans in exchange for goods or funds. Thus the slave trade was born and prospered until countries began to outlaw slavery. And once that happened, africa didn't have much to persuade others not to invade them, and had kept itself fractured enough for Europeans to step right in and start taking over. Sad fact is, the Africans were kinda shitty assholes, and ended up reaping what they sold in the long run, while their victims got to enjoy the long road to equality in better and less warlord ruled nations.

 

Wait, what? Where in the world are you getting this? Traditional slavery, practiced by all Old World people of all cultures and races, wasn't based on race for Africans, either, it was based on culture - two different cultures would have a war and take captives, it didn't matter what color the enemy was.  The concept of racial slavery, based on skin color rather than culture, was pretty new and came from Europeans who began to view anyone who wasn't fair-skinned with narrow features as inferior, regardless of what culture they came from.  This was a bizarre attitude to Africans who had hundreds of different languages and cultures, so when some groups among them sold slaves from enemy cultures to the Portuguese, they had no idea their "allies" thought of them as the same as the slaves.

 

(It's also why when most of Africa was eventually colonized by European nations, the Europeans defined territory borders that weren't based on cultural lines at all, leaving cultures who were enemies or at the very least not familiar with each other occupying the same territory.  No consideration for why sharing a skin color and features doesn't mean people are all the same.)

[leaguer of one]

Anyways, no one deserves to be deprived of opportunity. Only to be imprisoned inside the alienage until they die...damn

They can leave when ever they want. It just they would live a nrdic life style. Elves just don't get the chance to take part in the government around them or advance unless backed by a human.

[Aaleel]

It's not a simple as humans live on the surface and dwarves live underground.

 

Elves lived in the Dales away from humans for years and years and years.  Elves stayed secluded in the Dales during one of the blights even as human cities were destroyed and humans were mad it about when the blight ended.  This led to battles and eventually to war.

 

If elves had aided the world during the Blight, humans and elves would probably co exist very well just like they did after the first Exalted March on the Tevinter even though they were both on the surface.

[Cainhurst Crow]

More like trying to impost on their culture.
1. Tevintor was the one the ended elven culture and enslaved them with every other human.
2. Then the chantry tried to impose their religion on the Dales and the elfs got feed up and attacked. The chantry then called a march on them and after that had the nerve to strike form the record the involvement of the elves helping Andraste.

What does their involvement with andraste matter to them? They don't even believe in her, so why would they care what her religion says about them one way or another?

There isn't evidence to support the chantry tried to impose their religion on the dales. There is evidence the dales wanted to wipe out the chantry.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wait, what? Where in the world are you getting this? Traditional slavery, practiced by all Old World people of all cultures and races, wasn't based on race for Africans, either, it was based on culture - two different cultures would have a war and take captives, it didn't matter what color the enemy was.  The concept of racial slavery, based on skin color rather than culture, was pretty new and came from Europeans who began to view anyone who wasn't fair-skinned with narrow features as inferior, regardless of what culture they came from.  This was a bizarre attitude to Africans who had hundreds of different languages and cultures, so when some groups among them sold slaves from enemy cultures to the Portuguese, they had no idea their "allies" thought of them as the same as the slaves.
 
(It's also why when most of Africa was eventually colonized by European nations, the Europeans defined territory borders that weren't based on cultural lines at all, leaving cultures who were enemies or at the very least not familiar with each other occupying the same territory.  No consideration for why sharing a skin color and features doesn't mean people are all the same.)

Considering colonization of Africa occurred hundreds of years after the atlantic slave trade began, I think they weren't as stupid as to not know what their Portuguese or even European business partners thought of them. In africa, or at least the parts that practiced slavery, race seems more defined by culture then by skin color, they don't view other cultures as being deserving of the same respect they had for their own, and when something is treated with such fundamental differentiating ability as that, I would consider that a race more then culture. Of course the two terms are seperate and culture does apply more towards the mental then the physical world in describing differences, so I will relent on that. Regardless the events remain, they sold their fellow residents becasue they didn't value them, and in the end, it kept them divided enough to make them easy prey. To be frank, nothing you posted here really contradicts nor rebukes what I said, so I'll take it as a effort to help expand my own idea, which may have been lacking, and thank you for your generous contribution.

[Swoopdogg]

We could all learn from the dwarves. Rest of the world fighting? Nah, let's just go underground

[TheTurtle]

This thread is flamebait at its finest.

[Batknight]

We could all learn from the dwarves. Rest of the world fighting? Nah, let's just go underground

Yeah....accept for that whole darkspawn thing slowly wiping out their race. They just can't win.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Anyways, no one deserves to be deprived of opportunity. Only to be imprisoned inside the alienage until they die...damn 1700-1950s dejavu

No, no one deserves to be deprived of opportunity. Alienage elves definitely have a raw deal in the Dragon Age universe, but they're not imprisoned. They can leave. It's just that leaving home isn't easy, and you never know if you're heading for an ever harsher life than what you currently have.

[NewBlue]

No, no one deserves to be deprived of opportunity. Alienage elves definitely have a raw deal in the Dragon Age universe, but they're not imprisoned. They can leave. It's just that leaving home isn't easy, and you never know if you're heading for an ever harsher life than what you currently have.

I recall in the city elf origin, your friend (or cousin i forgot which) jokes around with you if you proposition him to leave the alienage with you in hopes of avoiding marriage. He says something like "and where would we go? seek out the dalish and live among the savages?" something like that makes me believe there really isn't anywhere else for them to go.

[Vortex13]

I don't want to get into a game world/real world debate about racism, but I will say that the strong opions over both sides is one of the reasons why I like the Darkspawn, or the Reapers, or the White Walkers; well apart from the fact that I really enjoy the non-human, and ultterly alien elements of various works of fiction.

 

It's becuase these factions or creatures have the perfect way of elimiating racism, or at the very least putting it on back burner for a long time; they are an undoubtly evil force that everyone has to come together to fight. You might call it shallow writing, but its funny how quickly racial animity tappers off when the monsters that are coming to kill everyone is at Thedas'/the Milky Way's/Humanity's doorstep.

 

It's a morbid thought, but sometimes I can't help but wonder if a 'big bad' in the real world would be the kick in the pants we all need to atcually move beyond racism and petty political squables. An alien invasion or a robot uprising that kills a couple billion people, and I wonder if society will really care what color your skin is, or what political party you belong to, or which god you worship?