Sort of. But City Elves are actually written to be between worlds. Discriminated on in the world they now know, but finding the old world of theirs to be distasteful (or this old world itself utterly rejecting them).
Like then Native Americans were Christianized.
RE: the bolded, this is how I think of them as well: part of the human world and the elven world, but not entirely belonging to either.
Humans as a whole did not destroy the original elf nation. Tevinter did. Tevinter was just one of multiple human tribes, there is no dialogue or text that I know of that says the other human tribes also went to war with Elvhenan and enslaved elves. (Perhaps if they weren't so isolationist and formed bonds with the other human tribes, who were rivals of Tevinter, they would have stood a chance.)
Then Orlais was being rude to the Dalish because the Dalish were also being rude, and then they fought each other. Other nations stayed out of it until the headquarters of their religion was threatened.
Elves are then scattered due to no longer having a nation, they are in a vulnerable state and so people take advantage of it. Few groups/nations of humans were actually aggressive to the elves. Apathy towards the elves is the problem now, where many humans don't concern themselves with the elves and other humans can then take advantage of their situation.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The elves were granted the Dales as a reward for fighting against Tevinter
Even though humans took the entire continent from them in the first place.
& they decided to repay the human generosity by watching from the sidelines as the darkspawn ravaged the land
"Human generosity" being giving them a small nation when humans themselves still occupied and controlled the entire continent. This also reeks of Indian-giving the elves were given their own land to do with as they pleased. That means they're obligated to leave their country and endanger their infant nation and treat humans as humans wanted at all times?
They might not have helped humans in their struggles, but they also didn't ask for help in anything either. They wanted to be left alone.
then trying to take advantage by invading a weakened Orlais.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is even close to accurate. Where the hell did you even get that? From all sides, all versions of the story is that the elves were "increasingly isolationist." The Dalish claim the humans sent in missionaries, then templars when the missionaries were kicked out. The human and city elf side says the Dalish became "increasingly isolationist," refusing missionaries and trade, and posted Emerald Guards to protect their borders. I'm often told The World of Thedas claims there were a series of border disputes that eventually led to an elven attack at Red Crossing, which resulted in open war. However, since humans consistently showed they wanted to get into the elven territory (to convert and trade) while the elves consistently showed they wanted to be left alone in their own country, I doubt the elves were the ones encroaching on human territory, or even that Red Crossing was entirely unprovoked.
I know elves eventually started fighting their way through Orlais, but by the time that happened humans and elves were already in open war. However, since the Dalish version says humans sent templars to invade their country after they threw out their missionaries, and it's said the elves were marching toward Val Royeux, the Andrastian center and Templar capitol of the world, I wonder if part of their motivation was to disarm the religious army that kept pestering them?
[quote]If the Dales had been good neighbours rather then trying to make their immortality myth come true they could have been human allies but instead they made life worse for themselves.
Nice victim-blaming. The humans were morally entitled to treat elves however the **** they wanted, whenever the **** they wanted, but the elves were obligated to receive humans exactly how they wanted to be received at all times (help against darkspawn, let in missionaries to convert them, etc.) and totally deserved having everything stripped away from them because they weren't perfect, subservient little angels to humans.
I'm an elf lover and even I can confidently say that they are the race with the least amount of backbone, at least shown in the games. Thus far there hasn't been a truly "strong" elf character, and don't count the warden and maybe!inquisitor either because I personally felt elves just bend over and let themselves get picked on which grinds my gears since I love them so much.
The Dalish refused to capitulate to human rule, live nomadic lifestyles because they won't surrender their cultural or religious beliefs (which were made illegal by the Chantry), deal with lynch mobs and templars, and have survived for centuries with no masters but themselves. I think that takes a tremendous amount of backbone to maintain their way of life when they are vilified as heathens.
Historically, there was Garahel, who united the Free Marches to end the Fourth Blight. In present day Thedas, there is Grand Enchanter Fiona, an Orlesian elf who served as a Grey Warden mage, and became a member of the Circle to help free the mages from the Chantry and the templars. We also have the Orlesian city elf Briala working to help her people, refusing to allow her people to continue to live in servitude to humanity, and her plan is to find other city elves to help her in the goal of liberating elves from the thumb of the Orlesian Empire.
Sort of. But City Elves are actually written to be between worlds. Discriminated on in the world they now know, but finding the old world of theirs to be distasteful (or this old world itself utterly rejecting them).
that's the point if the thread, th point out how dwarves are treated awesome, elves are treated like crap. No ones saying all elves deserve to be treated like ****, but it's pretty easy to see why they're treated like ****. Extreme xenophobia on both sides, massive cultural differences, lack of perceived and actual value, and leaving every one of your neighbor states to face an apocalyptic threat that could devour the world does not a healthy relationship make. (Not saying that anyone is wrong, just saying that these are contributing factors to a poor relationship)
Because the Dwarves were smart enough not to ****** off 2-3 human super powers at the same time thousands of years ago? 
Dwarves = Men's club
Elves = Boy scouts
Well while elves are treated as second-class citizens in most cases, they aren't even at the level of slaves. Thread title seems a mite exaggerated in light of slavery existing in Thedas.
As to the why?
Elves watched as friendly human nations were enslaved and conquered by Tevinter(which eventually turned on them too). So the loss of their home country when they were originally the only superpower on the continent was due to their negligence.
The new elven country of the Dales decided to ignore an entire Blight, then(regardless of who started the war) invaded Orlais(the center of humanity at the time) to its very capital.
As for the current Dalish, they're pretty much all racist jerks, not to mention they view city elves as race traitors.
Its pretty clear that elven leaders have done a lot to try and make elves widely disliked across Thedas. As opposed to dwarven leaders who actually tried the whole playing diplomacy thing. Funny how it worked out. Isolationist xenophobia doesn't appear to be an effective defense against foreign powers.
Well while elves are treated as second-class citizens in most cases, they aren't even at the level of slaves. Thread title seems a mite exaggerated in light of slavery existing in Thedas.
As to the why?
Elves watched as friendly human nations were enslaved and conquered by Tevinter(which eventually turned on them too). So the loss of their home country when they were originally the only superpower on the continent was due to their negligence.
You're confusing the Dales refusing to help Orlais with Arlathan and Tevinter. As for Arlathan, elven lore reads that the elves had relations with humans, then retreated due to the quickening that brought about disease and mortality, and that Tevinter retaliated by invading the elven kingdom and enslaving the Arlathan elves.
The new elven country of the Dales decided to ignore an entire Blight, then(regardless of who started the war) invaded Orlais(the center of humanity at the time) to its very capital.
So the Dales didn't help a neighbor that threatened them, and who had been invading other neighbors to create an empire under the worship of the Maker? The difficulties that Orlais had with the Dales are why Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches.
And if the humans had invaded the Dales due to the elves' refusal to convert, then you're addressing the elves retaliating against an enemy they felt threatened their sovereignty and their religious freedom.
As for the current Dalish, they're pretty much all racist jerks, not to mention they view city elves as race traitors.
You're generalizing the entirety of the Dalish based on the behavior of some. We know one of the clans adopted a human infant, the clans signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens to aid humanity during the Blight, there's supposed to be a semi-permanent settlement near one of the cities of Rivain where humans follow the Natural Order, they openly accept city elves like Lanaya and Pol, and even Velanna's clan remarks positively when they see her walking in the company of humans during the crisis in Amaranthine. Painting them all with the same brush is disingenuous.
Its pretty clear that elven leaders have done a lot to try and make elves widely disliked across Thedas. As opposed to dwarven leaders who actually tried the whole playing diplomacy thing. Funny how it worked out. Isolationist xenophobia doesn't appear to be an effective defense against foreign powers.
Dwarves have a monopoly on lyrium, reside in a virtually impenetrable habitat (as we know from dwarven dialogue and the epilogue slide with Harrowmont where the surface nations are unable to penetrate Orzammar), and they are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, none of which is the case for elves.
We know the Dalish are outlaws because the Chantry outlawed the elven religion, which leads to the view of them as "heathens", and it's lead to persecution from Andrastians who threaten them to convert, and templars who pursue them for their mages. Their city brethren don't have it any better; Duncan laments that many Andrastian humans view elves as less than people, which causes issues for the city elves who live under human rule.
You're confusing the Dales refusing to help Orlais with Arlathan and Tevinter. As for Arlathan, elven lore reads that the elves had relations with humans, then retreated due to the quickening that brought about disease and mortality, and that Tevinter retaliated by invading the elven kingdom and enslaving the Arlathan elves.
So the Dales didn't help a neighbor that threatened them, and who had been invading other neighbors to create an empire under the worship of the Maker? The difficulties that Orlais had with the Dales are why Drakon couldn't conquer the Free Marches.
And if the humans had invaded the Dales due to the elves' refusal to convert, then you're addressing the elves retaliating against an enemy they felt threatened their sovereignty and their religious freedom.
You're generalizing the entirety of the Dalish based on the behavior of some. We know one of the clans adopted a human infant, the clans signed a treaty with the Grey Wardens to aid humanity during the Blight, there's supposed to be a semi-permanent settlement near one of the cities of Rivain where humans follow the Natural Order, they openly accept city elves like Lanaya and Pol, and even Velanna's clan remarks positively when they see her walking in the company of humans during the crisis in Amaranthine. Painting them all with the same brush is disingenuous.
Dwarves have a monopoly on lyrium, reside in a virtually impenetrable habitat (as we know from dwarven dialogue and the epilogue slide with Harrowmont where the surface nations are unable to penetrate Orzammar), and they are the only ones who can safely mine lyrium, none of which is the case for elves.
We know the Dalish are outlaws because the Chantry outlawed the elven religion, which leads to the view of them as "heathens", and it's lead to persecution from Andrastians who threaten them to convert, and templars who pursue them for their mages. Their city brethren don't have it any better; Duncan laments that many Andrastian humans view elves as less than people, which causes issues for the city elves who live under human rule.
I'm not confusing Arlathan with the Dales at all.
I never said the Dales were a superpower. The only elven superpower was Arlathan. They had plenty of opportunity to stop the rise of Tevinter(who were bad for humanity well before they turned on the elves) and chose to ignore it. Their fall and consequent enslavement was due to their lack of preparation and willingness to take opportunities to defend themselves(same could be said for the non-Tevinter human tribes and pre-magocracy Tevinter, but those groups don't exist in the same sense the Dalish do in current Dragon Age).
The 2nd Blight was in Tevinter, Orlais, Starkhaven, and Fereldan. The text suggests it might've occurred in the other nations within the Free Marches as well. So the Dalish alienate themselves from literally every country surrounding them prior to hostilities beginning with Orlais, then proceed to make no attempt to diffuse hostilities while they are winning(they decide to try and conquer all of Orlais and end up paying for their ambition). That was a risk they decided to take.
The degree of xenophobic Dalish sentiment that I've seen in DA seems to radically outstrip the attitudes seen by virtually any other group. City elves, dwarves(lowborn and high), and humans all seem to average a much more moderate view. Given, we haven't been to Tevinter or Orlais which are supposed to be the extreme ends of humanity. While this kind of thing ultimately falls on whoever the heck is raising each of the Dalish tribes, it sure isn't doing the elves any favors.
If the Dalish want to form a serious power they need to work on their economic or military power. They're not going to get anything by wandering around while thumbing their nose at the wealthier and more prolific city elves. The dwarves don't follow the Chantry, and it makes no moves against them. There are sensible steps to take towards establishing an independent elven nation(or alternatively assimilating as the city elves are doing with some degree of success), which the Dalish people are not pursuing.
At the minimum they need support from an existing power in Thedas. They appear not to have the manpower or organization to create a nation through military means(unless they were to recruit city elves).
I'm willing to wager that we'll see some kind of progressive(talking more like Nobunaga's use of firearms and interest in European culture than political progressive) revolutionary Dalish leader at some point though. At this point they seem to be begging for their own King Bhelen.
I'm not confusing Arlathan with the Dales at all.
I never said the Dales were a superpower. The only elven superpower was Arlathan. They had plenty of opportunity to stop the rise of Tevinter(who were bad for humanity well before they turned on the elves) and chose to ignore it. Their fall and consequent enslavement was due to their lack of preparation and willingness to take opportunities to defend themselves(same could be said for the non-Tevinter human tribes and pre-magocracy Tevinter, but those groups don't exist in the same sense the Dalish do in current Dragon Age).
There's no historical account making this claim. Not in the novels, not in World of Thedas, not even in the games themselves. In fact, the timeline from WoT cites the "quickening" and the elven withdrawal from humanity as one of the earliest records on the timeline in -2850.
The 2nd Blight was in Tevinter, Orlais, Starkhaven, and Fereldan. The text suggests it might've occurred in the other nations within the Free Marches as well. So the Dalish alienate themselves from literally every country surrounding them prior to hostilities beginning with Orlais, then proceed to make no attempt to diffuse hostilities while they are winning(they decide to try and conquer all of Orlais and end up paying for their ambition). That was a risk they decided to take.
The elves of the Dales refused to aid Orlais. That's what the human historical account reads. Orlais - the nation that was created when Drakon lead a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors, and imposed his particular Cult of the Maker as the national religion. There's also Iloren and his elven brethren fighting darspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight. And given how they were dealing with pressures from Orlais since Drakon's reign, if the elven historical account is correct, then the Dales retaliated against an imperialistic empire that was threatening everything Shartan and his elven rebellion fought so hard for.
The degree of xenophobic Dalish sentiment that I've seen in DA seems to radically outstrip the attitudes seen by virtually any other group. City elves, dwarves(lowborn and high), and humans all seem to average a much more moderate view. Given, we haven't been to Tevinter or Orlais which are supposed to be the extreme ends of humanity. While this kind of thing ultimately falls on whoever the heck is raising each of the Dalish tribes, it sure isn't doing the elves any favors.
Being nomadic is a matter of survival - elven culture is outlawed and the elven religion is criminalized, and outsiders tend to run them off, threaten them to convert, or attack them. The Dalish are criminals simply by refusing to surrender their way of life, as well as their adamant refusal to convert to the human religion. Pointing out that the Dalish are wary of outsiders makes sense when you consider the facts.
If the Dalish want to form a serious power they need to work on their economic or military power. They're not going to get anything by wandering around while thumbing their nose at the wealthier and more prolific city elves. The dwarves don't follow the Chantry, and it makes no moves against them. There are sensible steps to take towards establishing an independent elven nation(or alternatively assimilating as the city elves are doing with some degree of success), which the Dalish people are not pursuing.
The city elves who live in dilapidated ghettos, are viewed as less than people by humans, and risk being purged en mass when they protest their living conditions or the injustices imposed on them. The last purge in Denerim even lead to the massacre of the Denerim Alienage orphanage. Even Halamshiral rebelled due to how the elves are treated by humans.
At the minimum they need support from an existing power in Thedas. They appear not to have the manpower or organization to create a nation through military means(unless they were to recruit city elves).
Considering one of the racial options is for a Dalish elf, perhaps the Inquisition can help the Dalish.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Money and trade. Not to mention surfacers are sometimes smiths as well.
Elves aren't just looked down for being elves.. they're also marginalized in society where they rarely ascend higher than "shoeshine boy", "fish cleaner", and cleaning up the rest of your crap. They're purposely kept down - and then looked down for it, as if it was their fault to begin with.
There's no historical account making this claim. Not in the novels, not in World of Thedas, not even in the games themselves. In fact, the timeline from WoT cites the "quickening" and the elven withdrawal from humanity as one of the earliest records on the timeline in -2850.
The elves of the Dales refused to aid Orlais. That's what the human historical account reads. Orlais - the nation that was created when Drakon lead a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors, and imposed his particular Cult of the Maker as the national religion. There's also Iloren and his elven brethren fighting darspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight. And given how they were dealing with pressures from Orlais since Drakon's reign, if the elven historical account is correct, then the Dales retaliated against an imperialistic empire that was threatening everything Shartan and his elven rebellion fought so hard for.
Being nomadic is a matter of survival - elven culture is outlawed and the elven religion is criminalized, and outsiders tend to run them off, threaten them to convert, or attack them. The Dalish are criminals simply by refusing to surrender their way of life, as well as their adamant refusal to convert to the human religion. Pointing out that the Dalish are wary of outsiders makes sense when you consider the facts.
The city elves who live in dilapidated ghettos, are viewed as less than people by humans, and risk being purged en mass when they protest their living conditions or the injustices imposed on them. The last purge in Denerim even lead to the massacre of the Denerim Alienage orphanage. Even Halamshiral rebelled due to how the elves are treated by humans.
Considering one of the racial options is for a Dalish elf, perhaps the Inquisition can help the Dalish.
The Arlathan elves were one of two advanced(and seemingly very magically advanced) native societies when the humans arrived. The accounts are very clear in that the humans don't arrive in anything approaching a unified invasive force(like the Qunari), and spend centuries developing their societies. The quickening is irrelevant to the elves ignoring the development of human nations and society. The elves had met the dwarves 1500 years prior to the arrival of the humans, unless they were hostile to them, there should be no reason that the elves could not keep track of human society post Iron Wall phase through dwarves.
The codexes indicate that the elves believed themselves to be immortal as well as the dominant race in Thedas. Now I suppose we could speculate that the Arlathan elves were actually weaker than the myriad individual human tribes and local kingdoms, but that would mean they warrant much less attention than the Dalish people give them, as the Dales would've been a far more powerful country than them.
Deciding not to intervene with the rise of Tevinter is a risk the elves chose to take(much like every other human tribe/kingdom at the time took). As the dominant nation in Thedas at the time, they let someone else(a very fanatical and blood crazy someone else) become the new dominant nation. The foolish isolationist policy of elven leaders led to downfall of Elvenhan. Cynically speaking, the least they should've done was pop out and wipe out any threat that they heard of every couple centuries or so. Even if their nation were human, these same isolationist policies would've led to their downfall(the mistakes are independent of their race)
The elves didn't help anyone during the second Blight. The second Blight encompassed the whole world. As a result, they had no friends after the second Blight. Orlais had many rivals and enemies the elves could've endeavored to befriend. This stance is idiotic regardless of whether they were a human or elven nation(and would've resulted in them being conquered even if they were human).
For the most part, racism is a comprehensible part of human history. Doesn't make it rational or effective. A lot of human behavior is that way(and lets face it, Thedas elven psychology is closely modeled after human psychology), like the tendency towards immediate gratification. At the minimum, elven leaders should try and maintain friendly relations with all prominent city leaders along their nomadic route(nothing has ever indicated that they even maintain communications with these people) so as to minimize conflict. Even hostile nations have some dialogue.
Well not all city elves live in ghettos, not all city elves are poor(and for the most part, Dalish people are probably even poorer in terms of currency and mercantile power), and not all city elves lack influence. As it stands, the City elves have a much greater chance of gaining equal status through either military or economic means. Human attitudes towards city elves are more benign than towards Dalish, the City Elves are actually numerous(Alienages existing in numerous locations),and we have met at least one wealthy elf before.
The greatest problem with Inquisition simply helping the Dalish, is they'd probably lose the country again(sans talented Dalish leadership). Even assuming that isolationism was functional, from a purely military standpoint, its necessary to understand foreign cultures and their ways of thinking.
A city elf is far more likely to be wordly than a Dalish elf(by virtue of dramatically more exposure to a variety of cultures and ideas), which actually makes them the best source for educated leadership amongst the elves imo.
To me, the City Elves appear to be doing everything within their power to advance(and are being unfairly treated as a result of the actions of their ancestors, but such is life in Thedas; least they weren't born a Tevinter slave), while the Dalish are still shirking the bare minimum to living alongside other peoples.
The Arlathan elves were one of two advanced(and seemingly very magically advanced) native societies when the humans arrived. The accounts are very clear in that the humans don't arrive in anything approaching a unified invasive force(like the Qunari), and spend centuries developing their societies. The quickening is irrelevant to the elves ignoring the development of human nations and society. The elves had met the dwarves 1500 years prior to the arrival of the humans, unless they were hostile to them, there should be no reason that the elves could not keep track of human society post Iron Wall phase through dwarves.
The codexes indicate that the elves believed themselves to be immortal as well as the dominant race in Thedas. Now I suppose we could speculate that the Arlathan elves were actually weaker than the myriad individual human tribes and local kingdoms, but that would mean they warrant much less attention than the Dalish people give them, as the Dales would've been a far more powerful country than them.
Deciding not to intervene with the rise of Tevinter is a risk the elves chose to take(much like every other human tribe/kingdom at the time took). As the dominant nation in Thedas at the time, they let someone else(a very fanatical and blood crazy someone else) become the new dominant nation. The foolish isolationist policy of elven leaders led to downfall of Elvenhan. Cynically speaking, the least they should've done was pop out and wipe out any threat that they heard of every couple centuries or so. Even if their nation were human, these same isolationist policies would've led to their downfall(the mistakes are independent of their race)
The elves didn't help anyone during the second Blight. The second Blight encompassed the whole world. As a result, they had no friends after the second Blight. Orlais had many rivals and enemies the elves could've endeavored to befriend. This stance is idiotic regardless of whether they were a human or elven nation(and would've resulted in them being conquered even if they were human).
For the most part, racism is a comprehensible part of human history. Doesn't make it rational or effective. A lot of human behavior is that way(and lets face it, Thedas elven psychology is closely modeled after human psychology), like the tendency towards immediate gratification. At the minimum, elven leaders should try and maintain friendly relations with all prominent city leaders along their nomadic route(nothing has ever indicated that they even maintain communications with these people) so as to minimize conflict. Even hostile nations have some dialogue.
Well not all city elves live in ghettos, not all city elves are poor(and for the most part, Dalish people are probably even poorer in terms of currency and mercantile power), and not all city elves lack influence. As it stands, the City elves have a much greater chance of gaining equal status through either military or economic means. Human attitudes towards city elves are more benign than towards Dalish, the City Elves are actually numerous(Alienages existing in numerous locations),and we have met at least one wealthy elf before.
The greatest problem with Inquisition simply helping the Dalish, is they'd probably lose the country again(sans talented Dalish leadership). Even assuming that isolationism was functional, from a purely military standpoint, its necessary to understand foreign cultures and their ways of thinking.
A city elf is far more likely to be wordly than a Dalish elf(by virtue of dramatically more exposure to a variety of cultures and ideas), which actually makes them the best source for educated leadership amongst the elves imo.
To me, the City Elves appear to be doing everything within their power to advance(and are being unfairly treated as a result of the actions of their ancestors, but such is life in Thedas; least they weren't born a Tevinter slave), while the Dalish are still shirking the bare minimum to living alongside other peoples.
This is why I hate war mongering politicians. Barbarian scum in suits.
Ever lived in those conditions? Ever lived against the current of the world?
You want war, war is the same, it is not justified. Brag of how civilized we'v become, we are still the barbarians we were thousands of years ago.
Elves did not choose violence. What humans did was evil.
Don't lose mercy, and common sense people. We live with other people.
The Arlathan elves were one of two advanced(and seemingly very magically advanced) native societies when the humans arrived. The accounts are very clear in that the humans don't arrive in anything approaching a unified invasive force(like the Qunari), and spend centuries developing their societies. The quickening is irrelevant to the elves ignoring the development of human nations and society. The elves had met the dwarves 1500 years prior to the arrival of the humans, unless they were hostile to them, there should be no reason that the elves could not keep track of human society post Iron Wall phase through dwarves.
The quickening was said to happen in -12850 Ancient, which is when they withdrew from contact. The Old Gods were said to whisper to the Dreamers of the Neromenian tribes in -2800 Ancient, with one of the tribes becoming Tevinter in -1700 Ancient. The timeline simply doesn't match up to your claim, since the elves withdrew long before then.
The elves didn't help anyone during the second Blight. The second Blight encompassed the whole world. As a result, they had no friends after the second Blight. Orlais had many rivals and enemies the elves could've endeavored to befriend. This stance is idiotic regardless of whether they were a human or elven nation(and would've resulted in them being conquered even if they were human).
Iloren and his people fought the darkspawn in the Anderfels, as the codex specifies that the battle took place during the Second Blight. The Dales didn't help Orlais, and considering the tensions between the two (with Orlais being created through the conquest of the other neighbors to establish an empire under worship of the Maker), it's not surprising. Orlais used the Third Blight to conquer Nevarra, it conquered Kirkwall, and it occupied Ferelden for over a century, so it's not as though concern about conquest was unwarranted. Also, the Dales border the Frostback Mountains and Orlais - and the elves wanted to be left alone, so I don't see how they could have reached out to anyone else.
As for dealing with the darkspawn, I give credit to the dwarves for taking the threat seriously; humans and elves have both ignored the threat posed when it didn't endanger them. The Wardens have also had to coax nations to get involved in the past.
Well not all city elves live in ghettos, not all city elves are poor(and for the most part, Dalish people are probably even poorer in terms of currency and mercantile power), and not all city elves lack influence. As it stands, the City elves have a much greater chance of gaining equal status through either military or economic means. Human attitudes towards city elves are more benign than towards Dalish, the City Elves are actually numerous(Alienages existing in numerous locations),and we have met at least one wealthy elf before.
Elves have their homes burned down when they try to live outside the Alienages, and even elves with some money tend to live in the Alienage (i.e. the City Elf Origin), which doesn't spare them from the dilapidated living conditions of the Alienage, the food shortages, or the purges. No one cared that elven women were abducted in broad daylight out of the Denerim Alienage; no one cared that elven children were being murdered by a serial killer in Kirkwall. And I'd hardly call it benign when it's resulted in an elven rebellion in Denerim and Halamshiral.
The greatest problem with Inquisition simply helping the Dalish, is they'd probably lose the country again(sans talented Dalish leadership). Even assuming that isolationism was functional, from a purely military standpoint, its necessary to understand foreign cultures and their ways of thinking.
A city elf is far more likely to be wordly than a Dalish elf(by virtue of dramatically more exposure to a variety of cultures and ideas), which actually makes them the best source for educated leadership amongst the elves imo.
Considering we have effective Dalish leaders, I'm simply going to disagree.
To me, the City Elves appear to be doing everything within their power to advance(and are being unfairly treated as a result of the actions of their ancestors, but such is life in Thedas; least they weren't born a Tevinter slave), while the Dalish are still shirking the bare minimum to living alongside other peoples.
The city elves are treated unfairly because they're elves; their ancestors were forcibly converted to the Andrastian Chantry and relegated to living in impoverished areas in human cities. The Dalish are living free outside of human rule because the Chantry outlawed their religion and way of life.
This is why I hate war mongering politicians. Barbarian scum in suits.
You want war, war is the same, it is not justified. Brag of how civilized we'v become, we are still the barbarians we were thousands of years ago.
Elves did not choose violence. What humans did was evil.
And I'm sure if they'd just told the Tevinter Magisters that their actions were evil, they wouldn't have conquered Elvenhan.
To answer your thread title, elves are treated poorly because they're on a losing streak lasting centuries in regards to military conflicts(their one win was when they worked with a human for once).
The reasons the elves have lost were enumerated above.
You can try to morally debate a would-be conqueror into submission, or you can try to use various forms of self-defense.
The quickening was said to happen in -12850 Ancient, which is when they withdrew from contact. The Old Gods were said to whisper to the Dreamers of the Neromenian tribes in -2800 Ancient, with one of the tribes becoming Tevinter in -1700 Ancient. The timeline simply doesn't match up to your claim, since the elves withdrew long before then.
Iloren and his people fought the darkspawn in the Anderfels, as the codex specifies that the battle took place during the Second Blight. The Dales didn't help Orlais, and considering the tensions between the two (with Orlais being created through the conquest of the other neighbors to establish an empire under worship of the Maker), it's not surprising. Orlais used the Third Blight to conquer Nevarra, it conquered Kirkwall, and it occupied Ferelden for over a century, so it's not as though concern about conquest was unwarranted. Also, the Dales border the Frostback Mountains and Orlais - and the elves wanted to be left alone, so I don't see how they could have reached out to anyone else.
As for dealing with the darkspawn, I give credit to the dwarves for taking the threat seriously; humans and elves have both ignored the threat posed when it didn't endanger them. The Wardens have also had to coax nations to get involved in the past.
Elves have their homes burned down when they try to live outside the Alienages, and even elves with some money tend to live in the Alienage (i.e. the City Elf Origin), which doesn't spare them from the dilapidated living conditions of the Alienage, the food shortages, or the purges. No one cared that elven women were abducted in broad daylight out of the Denerim Alienage; no one cared that elven children were being murdered by a serial killer in Kirkwall. And I'd hardly call it benign when it's resulted in an elven rebellion in Denerim and Halamshiral.
Considering we have effective Dalish leaders, I'm simply going to disagree.
The city elves are treated unfairly because they're elves; their ancestors were forcibly converted to the Andrastian Chantry and relegated to living in impoverished areas in human cities. The Dalish are living free outside of human rule because the Chantry outlawed their religion and way of life.
You seem to be missing my point about withdrawing from living and trading with humans doesn't mean that they should remain ignorant of human activity. They had contact with dwarves, dwarves had contact with humans. If elves ever employed statescraft(which given their lack of alliances and treaties as Elvenhan and the Dales, seems to be rare), they would've seen Tevinter coming and should've taken steps to stop it.
They even viewed humans as more warlike. Is there anything more obvious than keeping them from forming a militaristic empire?
Fair enough in regards to the Anderfels. Unfortunately, they apparently didn't capitalize on that opportunity to get a treaty of mutual aid or something akin to their treaty with the Wardens(though in this case stipulating Anderfels' aid to the Dalish).
Sure city elf life sucks. Probably sucked even more in the past when they were recently conquered. However, its not every human that's going around persecuting elves. Every example we've seen has been a person abusing a high position of power. The implication in multiple cases is that elves are even legally entitled to similar protection as humans(though people with power circumvent or ignore these laws). This is actually much closer to 19th-20th century discrimination than far more brutal discrimination experienced in the medieval area.
The only elven leader who has been able to work effectively with non-elves on a country-wide scale was Shartan. We've met literally zero Dalish leaders in game who've even attempted to use statescraft. They simply aren't politically adept.
And I'm sure if they'd just told the Tevinter Magisters that their actions were evil, they wouldn't have conquered Elvenhan.
To answer your thread title, elves are treated poorly because they're on a losing streak lasting centuries in regards to military conflicts(their one win was when they worked with a human for once).
The reasons the elves have lost were enumerated above.
You can try to morally debate a would-be conqueror into submission, or you can try to use various forms of self-defense.
By self defense you mean break away from human control, which will p!ss off the (mental) humans and make them attack the elves. Creating a full scale race war in which the past events would occur again. Elves would loose sinse they have no military, and humans would either kill them all, or deeply oppress the survivors.
Humans, even in RL don't even want to admit their actions are wrong unless someone/s work hard enough to remove the stick that's shoved far up their arse, and whack them hard with it.
Because someone needs to empty the chamber pots, and those people are called Elves. The Maker wills it!
By self defense you mean break away from human control, which will p!ss off the (mental) humans and make them attack the elves. Creating a full scale race war in which the past events would occur again. Elves would loose sinse they have no military, and humans would either kill them all, or deeply oppress the survivors.
Humans, even in RL don't even want to admit their actions are wrong unless someone/s work hard enough to remove the stick that's shoved far up their arse, and whack them hard with it.
I never suggested they break away currently(although in Orlais that's almost certainly a viable option), I was suggesting that they could've utilized their advantages when they actually had a country(twice).
If they wanted to form a new nation now, Orlais is a declining empire with a lot of old enemies. There's probably a large number of human countries who'd be happy to have a hand in screwing Orlais over.
Because elves cant grow beards
Guest_StreetMagic_*
People keep confusing this with a social justice argument and I'm laughing. BSN ain't tumblr, and the threads not about "why it's bad" the elves are oppressed, it's "why" the elves are oppressed.
It's easy to verge into social justice territory, just because the natural state of most human beings is focus on present conditions. Here and now.
The reason why the elves are there to begin with are eons old religious reasons. Whatever the facts were doesn't matter. Who cares if the elves or humans were right or wrong. The real question is it right to keep punishing people hundreds of years later because of religious reasons. It's hard to avoid the social justice angle here. To say "Who gives a flying **** what his great great great great great great grandma did. Just feed the poor bastard and give him a decent job. Oh, and while we're at it, lets stop raping their wives too on their wedding days. Or any day really."
.....maybe it's just cuz it's late but I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say. But I've rarely had a PC that hasn't tried to help the elves, because for the vast majority of the time, they are unjustly given the **** end of the stick. Having said that, it's pretty obvious that all races In thedas except the qunari(as a society) would be treating any other race identically. On top of that, I haven't seen anyone (except as a joke) defend their treatment. But given the history between the nations/races of thedas, it's pretty easy to list "why" they are treated suchIt's easy to verge into social justice territory, just because the natural state of most human beings is focus on present conditions. Here and now.
The reason why the elves are there to begin with are eons old religion and political reasons. Whatever the facts were doesn't matter. Who cares if the elves or humans were right or wrong. The real question is it right to keep punishing people hundreds of years later because of religious reasons. It's hard to avoid the social justice angle here. To say "Who gives a flying **** what his great great great great great great grandma did. Just feed the poor bastard and give him a decent job."
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