954 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I think reconciliation is going to be likely and I admit, causing a civil war to erupt when you know the 'sh*tstorm* is coming seems like a very bad idea. The best choice for Orlais is a unified Orlais.

 

I'm sure he'd agree. He just doesn't think Orlais should be unified behind Celene, whose response to the Mage-Templar conflict is to watch them wind up to trade blows on Orlais and do nothing else about it. Of course, had his coup succeeded he wouldn't have had a civil war, while even without Gaspard there was already anti-Celene sentiment across the nation for someone like Gaspard to tap into.

 

Unity only helps if the leadership is effective in the crisis. Celene is a political player, but not necessarily the sort that helps with the shitstorm..

[TheJediSaint]

 

He's not sympathetic to elves. He's also not racist towards them.

 

 

 

Gaspard is not sympathetic, period.  Outside his romantic notion of honor, he's pretty stone cold.

[Lucijenifer]

Unity only helps if the leadership is effective in the crisis. Celene is a political player, but not necessarily the sort that helps with the shitstorm..

 

I suppose that's where the Inquisition comes in.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm sure he'd agree. He just doesn't think Orlais should be unified behind Celene, whose response to the Mage-Templar conflict is to watch them wind up to trade blows on Orlais and do nothing else about it. Of course, had his coup succeeded he wouldn't have had a civil war, while even without Gaspard there was already anti-Celene sentiment across the nation for someone like Gaspard to tap into.

 

Unity only helps if the leadership is effective in the crisis. Celene is a political player, but not necessarily the sort that helps with the shitstorm..

A point I should have added to this is that Gaspard's course of action wasn't simply 'I think Celene is wrong and Orlais is weak- civil war ahoy!' He actually does make an effort of compromise and accomodation vis-a-vis Celene.

 

That proposal, which Celene refused against Briala's counsel, was the proposal of marriage. A political alliance which would have bolstered the concerns of strength without necessarily sacrificing Celene's reforms and cultural renaissance. It would have been a partnership of tension and pressure on both parts, but also a potential Golden Age for Orlais and certainly an improvement over the Civil War and the course of action raised multiple times as the off-ramp for the conflict.

 

After the proposal came the coup, which would also have resolved the conflict short of a civil war. It was only the failure of the coup, and Briala's intervention to prevent a resolution, that then turned into war.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gaspard is not sympathetic, period.  Outside his romantic notion of honor, he's pretty stone cold.

 

...and this disagrees with me how? Or is this even a disagreement?

 

I think it's her opportunity to be more than a political player. If it was her choice, she'd be probably something like Jefferson.. educated, enlightened, but takes his sweet time with real reforms. It's why Briala breaks away. Now it's her opportunity to be more. Or not....

 

Gaspard will always be what he is though, I think.

Briala breaks away from Celene because everyone in the chamber knows that Celene won't keep any agreement or promise of reform when it becomes too inconvenient. She'll do it at her own pace, but roll it back as well for her advantage, and realizing this lack of conviction is part of what makes Briala revolt.

 

Which was really not smart because that moment, in which Briala had the keys of influence and could prevent the war and still have leverage over Celene afterwards, was the best reliable moment for Briala to make a bargain from a position of strength. If she sides with Celene in the future, she's undercut herself and her efforts with the animosity acrued by elves prolonging the war, even as Celene by necessity works to adjust her power base to being resistant to, rather than dependent on, the mirrors.

 

Briala's concerns about Celene don't get any better if she strikes a deal later. The only partner whose honor in any such deal wouldn't be doubted is Gaspard, but Briala is open about fighting him as well depending on who has the upper hand.

I suppose that's where the Inquisition comes in.

Eh, the Inquisition might end the fade tears but it's not going to do much about Nevarra or other threats on Thedas.

[TheJediSaint]

...and this disagrees with me how? Or is this even a disagreement?

 

 

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I was expanding on your point.

[Lucijenifer]

Eh, the Inquisition might end the fade tears but it's not going to do much about Nevarra or other threats on Thedas.

 

The big question is, what will the Inquisition do in order to seal the Breach and put an end to the tears across Thedas?

 

I get a feeling that the actions of the Inquisitor will end much of the political turmoil rather than create more.

[lil yonce]

I think a compromise between Gaspard and the City Elves might be possible. While he slighted the elven informant in the slums, giving them silver rather than gold for their info, called him rabbit, and hesitated to kill him only because other elves were watching, he did give him enough to rebuild the warehouse Celene's people burned, saying he wanted the elves to see him in a positive light because, "I might need them later." So foreshadowing maybe?

[Mistic]

He's not sympathetic to elves. He's also not racist towards them.

 

Depending on whom you ask, but it's true that he's an opportunistic rather than a clear-cut racist. Actually, Michel uses the word 'knife-ear' much more often than Gaspard, but those who have read the book know why. As for Gaspard, when talking directly to elves he seems to prefer "rabbit". As TME said, it's more condescending than insulting. He also promised to Celene that he would spare her elves (yes, he says elves) if he won the duel, but Celene didn't think he could consider his oaths binding to them.

 

However, and getting on topic. I'm more interested about his opinion on mages and templars. He had a clear idea for them, with an eviden nationalist intention.

[LobselVith8]

Which you should be able to do by siding with Briala.

Well, since the Inquisitor can ally with either the templars or the mages to bring an end to the conflict, I'm hoping siding with the elves is also an option. If the 'five game plan' covers other regions - the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Nevarra, Rivain, Tevinter, Antiva, the Qunari occupied islands - then our choices can be significant without interrupting the flow of the next games, if they take place in areas outside the direct influence of our former protagonist.

[lil yonce]

Briala breaks away from Celene because everyone in the chamber knows that Celene won't keep any agreement or promise of reform when it becomes too inconvenient. She'll do it at her own pace, but roll it back as well for her advantage, and realizing this lack of conviction is part of what makes Briala revolt.

 

Which was really not smart because that moment, in which Briala had the keys of influence and could prevent the war and still have leverage over Celene afterwards, was the best reliable moment for Briala to make a bargain from a position of strength. If she sides with Celene in the future, she's undercut herself and her efforts with the animosity acrued by elves prolonging the war, even as Celene by necessity works to adjust her power base to being resistant to, rather than dependent on, the mirrors.

 

Briala's concerns about Celene don't get any better if she strikes a deal later. The only partner whose honor in any such deal wouldn't be doubted is Gaspard, but Briala is open about fighting him as well depending on who has the upper hand.

Maybe Briala's plan is to cause enough trouble with an elven rebellion and get an definitive, immediate concession from the civil war winner on elven rights rather than put up with Celene's will-she-won't-she reform efforts. I don't know if it was a good plan, but maybe that was the plan?

[sunnydxmen]

i hate templars long live mages  i pick them every time.

[SmilesJA]

Mage freedom baby!

[Lucijenifer]

I don't think anyone picks Templars over Mages. Western society has a big issue with anyone that tries to restrain the rights of others, we have a cultural obsession with liberty and freedom.

 

I'm almost tempted to try and defend the Templars just to be different but... Even I find it hard to side with them.

 

Don't mind me, I'm stupid.

[The Elder King]

I don't think anyone picks Templars over Mages. Western society has a big issue with anyone that tries to restrain the rights of others, we have a cultural obsession with liberty and freedom.
 
I'm almost tempted to try and defend the Templars just to be different but... Even I find it hard to side with them.

There are plently of people who support the templars over the mages.

[AresKeith]

I don't think anyone picks Templars over Mages. Western society has a big issue with anyone that tries to restrain the rights of others, we have a cultural obsession with liberty and freedom.

 

I'm almost tempted to try and defend the Templars just to be different but... Even I find it hard to side with them.

 

It's not that far-fetched to see people side with the Templars

 

It's a valid reason to think that the Circles are needed for Mages and for Templars to watch over them

[Aimi]

I don't think anyone picks Templars over Mages.

There are plenty of people on this very forum who do just that.

While I agree that modern Western legal thought has generally tended toward protection of individual rights at the expense of corporate rights, I think that most people would agree that individuals have the right not to be fireballed, experimented on, or otherwise gruesomely mutilated.

Incidentally, "corporate rights" have nothing to do with the Coasian firm or corporations or evil money-grubbers or whatever. Corporate rights are the rights of certain communities, classes, or interest groups. Everything from "the Chinese scholar-gentry" to "Tirolean peasantry" to "the Zaporizhian Cossacks".

[Lucijenifer]

There are plently of people who support the templars over the mages.

 

It's not that far-fetched to see people side with the Templars

 

It's a valid reason to think that the Circles are needed for Mages and for Templars to watch over them

 

I've lurked around for quite a while and I almost never see anyone support the Templars over the Mages. I've seen people in favour of both and who would've liked to stay with the Circle system, but I've never seen anyone outright believe that the Templars in the right and the Mages are utterly wrong.

[Maria Caliban]

There are people who support the DA:O and DA II Templars. The DA:I Templars are have gone Cerberus.

[The Elder King]

I've lurked around for quite a while and I almost never see anyone support the Templars over the Mages. I've seen people in favour of both and who would've liked to stay with the Circle system, but I've never seen anyone outright believe that the Templars in the right and the Mages are utterly wrong.

You haven't seen many mage-templar debate, then.

There are people who support the DA:O and DA II Templars. The DA:I Templars are have gone Cerberus.

How so?

[AresKeith]

I've lurked around for quite a while and I almost never see anyone support the Templars over the Mages. I've seen people in favour of both and who would've liked to stay with the Circle system, but I've never seen anyone outright believe that the Templars in the right and the Mages are utterly wrong.

 

You haven't seen many mage-templar debate, then.

 

Paging MisterJB

[Lucijenifer]

There are people who support the DA:O and DA II Templars. The DA:I Templars are have gone Cerberus.

 

I love it when Bioware gives us a morally grey faction that we can choose to side with only to suddenly rip them away and declare that they're bad guys with pitch black morality.

[AresKeith]

There are people who support the DA:O and DA II Templars. The DA:I Templars are have gone Cerberus.

 

I'd say the Red Templars are more Cerberus than the Rebel/Lambert Templars