954 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Oh please. Next time is something else; and the time after that will be something else.

There will always be an excuse as to why mages need to hide their worst elements. And naturally, people like you will claim that it's anyone who is not a mage that it's at fault.

Never mind that Quentin proves the Templars are right and that Orsino proves that they are needed because the mages just aren't interested in policing themselves.

 

Anders himself in DA2 once said that he's proof to why Mages are feared

[thetinyevil]

. The purpose of an Annulment is not to kill freedom sympathizers, its to be called when an entire Circle has been lost to demons, or is in open rebellion. It's not supposed to be a political weapon, rather one of last resort, now how it is used in practice is another matter

Tell that to the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle. No demons, no blood mages over running it but they were still annulled, for no reason.

[AresKeith]

Tell that to the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle. No demons, no blood mages over running it but they were still annulled, for no reason.

 

He literally just said how it is used in practice is another matter

[Steelcan]

Tell that to the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle. No demons, no blood mages over running it but they were still annulled, for no reason.

. I said supposed to be. I specifically pointed out that in practice it isn't always how its supposed to be

[Lucijenifer]

The purpose of an Annulment is not to kill freedom sympathizers, its to be called when an entire Circle has been lost to demons, or is in open rebellion. It's not supposed to be a political weapon, rather one of last resort, now how it is used in practice is another matter

 

Quite a few of the Circles are in open rebellion so the function of Annulment is the same as its traditional use. But sympathy is a contagion and I can understand why the Templars feel the need to crush it underfoot before it spreads from one person to those around them through that individual's influence, turning them into carriers and potential combatants for the cause.

 

But as long as the Templars keep on resorting to Annulment, the Mages will fear and hate the Chantry more and more and the conflict will move further away from a resolution. With every action, the more likely they are to tear at each other until one or the other is utterly destroyed.

[LobselVith8]

Tell that to the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle. No demons, no blood mages over running it but they were still annulled, for no reason.

 

The imbalance of power is one of the reasons why some of us strongly disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and with giving an anti-mage religious order any degree of power and authority over mages. In addition to the example of the annulment against the Circle of Dairsmuid, there is the annulment that was ordered against the Circle of Kirkwall, to appease a hypothetical mob.

[thetinyevil]

I never got the story on that. Just saw it mentioned in Asunder.

 

That's some fucked up **** though, if true.

Their "crime" was keeping in contact with their families and not converting. It was also a way for the templars and Chantry to show that they have complete control over the mages.

[Steelcan]

The imbalance of power is one of the reasons why some of us strongly disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and with giving an anti-mage religious order any degree of power and authority over mages. In addition to the example of the annulment against the Circle of Dairsmuid, there is the annulment that was ordered against the Circle of Kirkwall, to appease a hypothetical mob.

. The calling of the Annulment based on that reasoning was flawed, if she had said instead " We are going to annul this Circle because it is hemorrhaging blood mages" she'd have a more solid argument.

[thetinyevil]

. The calling of the Annulment based on that reasoning was flawed, if she had said instead " We are going to annul this Circle because it is hemorrhaging blood mages" she'd have a more solid argument.

But she had no prof and the only blood mages they knew of were apostates outside the circle.

[The Baconer]

Tell that to the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle. No demons, no blood mages over running it but they were still annulled, for no reason.

 

The annulment at Dairsmuid actually came after the Chantry/Templar/Seeker schism, which is interesting because it either means that they were all killed by a warband of treasonous Seekers and Templars, or it was an official annulment performed by Templars and Seekers still loyal to the Chantry. The author of the journal entry claims that Seekers were "sent by the Chantry", with the Rite not being used until blood had already been shed. I wonder if we'll be able to ask Cassandra about this event if this were the case.

 

Either way, it's just another example of the Seekers' modus operandi in their completely ineffectual response to the events at Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

. The calling of the Annulment based on that reasoning was flawed, if she had said instead " We are going to annul this Circle because it is hemorrhaging blood mages" she'd have a more solid argument.

 

I don't see how the conduct of mages who were encountered outside the Circle condemn the mages who were living inside it. It's like condemning all the Kirkwall dwarves because of the waves of carta members who were fought for nearly a decade.

[Steelcan]

But she had no prof and the only blood mages they knew of were apostates outside the circle.

. No there were former Circle Mages who escaped and were shown to be Blood Mages, you hunt them down in Act 3.

[displayname]

Time for me to crawl back into the thread for just an hour to make a few obvious points.

 

If only the non-combatants are killed or punished, all that does is encourage the more influential mages to be more subversive and secretive in their undermining of the Chantry. Annulment requires the purging of all possible 'Mage Freedom' sympathisers, even if the act of Annulment itself creates more in other Circles.

The annulment sequence in DA2 gave the opportunity to spare 3 mages that were willing to submit to the Templars. I can't remember any other annulments that completed successfully, so maybe thats changed.(?) 

[MisterJB]

I never got the story on that. Just saw it mentioned in Asunder.

That's some fucked up **** though, if true.

It's nota that simples. Every fémale mage in that Circle was a Ser which means that not only were they possessed, the ruled over most of Rivain's comunities.
Só possessed and magic ruling over man. Maybe they weren't rampaging, Maybe, but that doesn't mean the Templars had no reason for their actions.

[Steelcan]

I don't see how the conduct of mages who were encountered outside the Circle condemn the mages who were living inside it. It's like condemning all the Kirkwall dwarves because of the waves of carta members who were fought for nearly a decade.

. There were Circle Mages who were blood Mages, we hunted some of them down in Act 3, others are mentioned in dialogue

[BlueMagitek]

Honestly, can't ya'll just enjoy a holiday?  Pssh. :/

 

Frankly, the majority opinion on this board appears to be Circle Reform as the best option, and then there are various differences on what type of reform is required.  There are more "mages should be free" posters than "kill them all" posters, but anyone equating the latter as the entire pro-Templar (or even just pro-supervision) faction is crazy.

 

Anyway, Circle Reform:

 

1. Remain under control of the Chantry
2. Templars remain at their post
3. Circles are expanded in size  (this one may be tricky and some may need to move / deals need to be struck with regional leaders to provide adequate space) to let the Mages outside now and then.
4. More defined Enchanter system for the Circle.  Apprentices cannot leave the Circle, Enchanters can with Templar Escort, Senior Enchanters can leave with permission from First Enchanter or Templar Commander with the knowledge that they will be required to check in with a Circle or Chantry every few months.
5. Better oversight for the Templars, meaning either an expansion of the Seekers or a new party.  Alternatively, form the new party out of the Templar and treat accusations through military tribunal. 
6. Chantry implemented healing / weather (if possible) by enchanters/senior enchanters.

 

The above allows for the Circles to exist internationally (and protected, so they can't be coerced into national affairs), keeps a system in place for protecting mages and the common people, allows for greater mage freedom and allows for the Chantry to clear up that Magic must serve Man, and that mages aren't all evil (just the Tevinter ones!).

[LobselVith8]

. There were Circle Mages who were blood Mages, we hunted some of them down in Act 3, others are mentioned in dialogue

 

Who were outside the Gallows and killed by the Champion. I don't see how that exemplifies that the Circle of Kirkwall was lost.

[thetinyevil]

. No there were former Circle Mages who escaped and were shown to be Blood Mages, you hunt them down in Act 3.

One was driven insane while in the Circle, so that was their fault.

Another went to the Circle willingly hoping to help her children only to find that they were left to die. And when she defended them and herself she went nuts.

The third wasn't a blood mage just a horny idiot.

[Steelcan]

Who were outside the Gallows and killed by the Champion. I don't see how that exemplifies that the Circle of Kirkwall was lost.

. Meredith sends us after them because they have escaped from the Circle and stumped the Templars, two of them are blood Mages, and even abominations at that, the other was looking to score and he can be allowed to go free because he is harmless.

These Mages came from the Circle and were proven blood Mages, these are not the only ones, others are mentioned in dialogue

[BlueMagitek]

Who were outside the Gallows and killed by the Champion. I don't see how that exemplifies that the Circle of Kirkwall was lost.

 

Your argument :

 

 

I don't see how the conduct of mages who were encountered outside the Circle condemn the mages who were living inside it. It's like condemning all the Kirkwall dwarves because of the waves of carta members who were fought for nearly a decade.

 

The issue is, these mages encountered aren't random hedge mages who just jump out of nowhere; they're apostates from the Circle.  As a result, their conduct reflects upon the Circle.  Irving even says something along these lines when he gives you your ring.

 

It's like "That well doesn't have cholera in it!  The water was consumed outside of the wel!".

 

Edit:  Meaning that, if multiple things coming from a source happen to be tainted, you can deduce that there may be an issue with the source itself.

[Steelcan]

One was driven insane while in the Circle, so that was their fault.
Another went to the Circle willingly hoping to help her children only to find that they were left to die. And when she defended them and herself she went nuts.
The third wasn't a blood mage just a horny idiot.

There were blood Mages, escaping from the Circle, on top of others, and those are just the ones being caught.

The Circle should have burned long before Anders lit his fuse

[LobselVith8]

. Meredith sends us after them because they have escaped from the Circle and stumped the Templars, two of them are blood Mages, and even abominations at that, the other was looking to score and he can be allowed to go free because he is harmless.

 

Yes, the elf who lived in the Alienage for years and even found a wife, but lost his mind after ten years in the Circle of Kirkwall, and the human who became an abomination after having spent years in the Circle of Ferelden without succumbing, and even surviving the Blight. Those examples certainly addressed that the Gallows isn't a pleasant place.

 

These Mages came from the Circle and were proven blood Mages, these are not the only ones, others are mentioned in dialogue

 

So an entire population should be executed because there was one insane blood mage, one abomination, and some other mages mentioned in dialogue? I'm not seeing that as sufficient grounds to kill an entire population.

 

In fact, it's a moot point, as the only reason the Right of Annulment is called is because Meredith wants to kill all the mages to appease a hypothetical mob who will want them all dead simply for being mages.

[Steelcan]

Why the Kirkwall Circle is spawning blood Mages like a Broodmother isn't important, it's that it is.

I would agree that Meredith should have been removed from power and brought to justice for her abuses of power, but that doesn't change that the Circle was still breeding blood Mages.


And yes I agree her reasoning in game is weak, she'd have a stronger argument if instead if "we need to placate the mob" she said "this Circle is churning out blood Mages, we need to start over from scratch" she can justify it with the large amounts of blood Mages and apostates coming from the Circle.

[lil yonce]

And that is a bad idea, we have seen that the Circle cannot be trusted to handle its own affairs, they need oversight, and the Templars with their abilities are the best candidates.

Well, I'm rather certain the Nevarran Accord states the Circles of Magi are autonomous, so templars running circles or helping to run them isn't something that the mages have to agree to. *I'm also assuming the Nevarran Accord is what they'd use as a basis for negotiations - precedent and all that. WoT also states that heavy templar presence in circles also undermines circle autonomy, so that has to be addressed to. A mixed force or tiered templar system could perhaps work. Oversight is fine, but its been taken to an extreme and must be scaled back. You can't put a chokehold on the circle and call it oversight.

Modifié par lil yonce, 05 juillet 2014 - 04:42 .