954 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucijenifer]

Common misconception, certain parts of Europe, especially England, Spain, Byzantium, the Italian city States, had superb administration capabilities, can't get taxes unless you have an efficient system, or raise an army, etc...

 

Of course, but enough to assemble statistics on violent crimes committed against very specific individuals and so on and so forth? I understand that some nations were quite good at administration but that was for the purpose of taxes and military, like you said but stats like the ones that were asked for are unlikely to be found in medieval society.

[Lucijenifer]

What makes it absurd enough for you that you hope none of it happens?

 

Well, I doubt that we'll see the mages or the templars entirely neutralised in the way that either of the side asks for. At the very best, I'd expect the possibility of a tenuous peace and reformed Circles, with either more power for the Templars or more power for the Mages in the relationship. Personally, I wouldn't be shocked if the Mage-Templar conflict continues on into the next game.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well what if we found out that the situations we saw in the games were really isolated cases? I mean if I found out that the risk of mages becoming abominations and the amount of apostates who became blood magic was a lot higher than I previously thought then I would probably rethink my position and probably be more pro-templar. We've got to take into account new information even if it contradicts our preconceptions. 

There is too much such cases just to brush it as coincidence.Basically what we saw was perspective of 2 different people in 2 different countries during short period of time.In first game 3 main quest (problems) were caused by mages and then we have blight our primary problem that was also caused by mages.Then in expansion we have Baroness and in dlc we we have army of harvester that magisters created (i know that dwarves took part in it but they couldn't achieve that without mages).Then we have kirkwall that have just too many disasters caused by mages so i won't put them here.Then we can leave from games and we have dawn of the seeker with another disaster and conspiracy sponsored by power hungry mages.Then dragon age redemption where qunari mage tried destroy world by summoning army of demons.  

 

So almost every da product have problem or more than one problem (often huge problem/disaster) caused by mages. 

[Steelcan]

Of course, but enough to assemble statistics on violent crimes committed against very specific individuals and so on and so forth? I understand that some nations were quite good at administration but that was for the purpose of taxes and military, like you said but stats like the ones that were asked for are unlikely to be found in medieval society.

. Well it was probably more a matter of "why bother?" than not being able to do so, they didn't really have a need to find the rates of violent crimes, not while there were slightly darker skinned people believing in a slightly different god to kill.

[Lucijenifer]

Well it was probably more a matter of "why bother?" than not being able to do so, they didn't really have a need to find the rates of violent crimes, not while there were slightly darker skinned people believing in a slightly different god to kill.

 

And Thedas is full of other threats. They don't really have a need, just like reality didn't. So the cold hard statistics can't be found likely because no one has ever really cared enough to note it all down.

 

Perhaps Scribbles might be the first?

[MisterJB]

. Well it was probably more a matter of "why bother?" than not being able to do so, they didn't really have a need to find the rates of violent crimes, not while there were slightly darker skinned people believing in a slightly different god to kill.

Who had attacked and conquered large portions of Europe before, let's not forget that.

[Steelcan]

Who had attacked and conquered large portions of Europe before, let's not forget that.

before? They still were, the Ottomans reached their zenith well after the Middle Ages were over in the 1500's when the attacked Vienna in the heart of Europe. Added in with Ottoman privateers, the Moors in Spain, and the ever popular crusades, it's no surprise they weren't best buds

[MisterJB]

before? They still were, the Ottomans reached their zenith well after the Middle Ages were over in the 1500's when the attacked Vienna in the heart of Europe. Added in with Ottoman privateers, the Moors in Spain, and the ever popular crusades, it's no surprise they weren't best buds

Precisely. The point I was trying to make is that the "slightly darker skinned people believing in a slightly different god" were not peaceful themselves and did, in fact, invade Europe many times.

[Dean_the_Young]

What makes it absurd enough for you that you hope none of it happens?

 

Speaking for myself personally, I think an appropriate consequence of people talking and behaving like Americans going into Iraq and Afghanistan to 'fix' other societies is to have about as much success as the Americans going into Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Mind you, I have no delusion that players would actually take an appropriate lesson of the follies of progressive imperialism, but I'd rather a fictional power fantasy embrace those sorts of limitations rather than ignore them and convince people of the merits of Great Person ideology and how authoritarian fiat can solve social problems.

 

No, I don't think a power fantasy should be unlimited in its scale and scope. And neither would you if you thought up some social changes a that could be indulged if it were.

[LobselVith8]

Well, I doubt that we'll see the mages or the templars entirely neutralised in the way that either of the side asks for. At the very best, I'd expect the possibility of a tenuous peace and reformed Circles, with either more power for the Templars or more power for the Mages in the relationship. Personally, I wouldn't be shocked if the Mage-Templar conflict continues on into the next game.

 

I fully expect the protagonist to be able to side with either the mages or the templars, and defeat the opposing side. I highly doubt the player will be forced into a compromise when the developers have said otherwise. A regional victory doesn't seem implausible to me, since Cameron Lee has already said the player can side with one of the factions to bring an end to the conflict, and can even bring that faction to become a part of the Inquisition. Lee said, "You can bring an end to the conflict between the mages and the templars once and for all very early on in the game. You can align with one of those."

 

With the Chantry relatively powerless in this crisis, I'm interested in siding with the mages, and with the prospect of having the mages serve as a militant arm of the Inquisition - finally removing the Chantry and the templars from having dominion over mages by "divine right".

[TK514]

I fully expect the protagonist to be able to side with either the mages or the templars, and defeat the opposing side. I highly doubt the player will be forced into a compromise when the developers have said otherwise. A regional victory doesn't seem implausible to me, since Cameron Lee has already said the player can side with one of the factions to bring an end to the conflict, and can even bring that faction to become a part of the Inquisition. Lee said, "You can bring an end to the conflict between the mages and the templars once and for all very early on in the game. You can align with one of those."

 

With the Chantry relatively powerless in this crisis, I'm interested in siding with the mages, and with the prospect of having the mages serve as a militant arm of the Inquisition - finally removing the Chantry and the templars from having dominion over mages by "divine right".

 

It's interesting that you dismiss Lee when he says something you don't like, and then cling to his words as the cornerstone of your argument when he says something you agree with.

[LobselVith8]

It's interesting that you dismiss Lee when he says something you don't like, and then cling to his words as the cornerstone of your argument when he says something you agree with.

 

I don't view an opinion on blood magic (which is contradicted by the narrative in two games no less) as comparable to what outcomes will result from the player choosing to side with one of the two factions in the Mage-Templar War.

[Hellion Rex]

It's interesting that you dismiss Lee when he says something you don't like, and then cling to his words as the cornerstone of your argument when he says something you agree with.

What'd he dismiss?

[TK514]

I don't view an opinion on blood magic (which is contradicted by the narrative in two games no less) as comparable to what outcomes will result from the player choosing to side with one of the two factions in the Mage-Templar War.

 

Except he wasn't offering the stance on Blood Magic as his opinion. 

 

He're the quote: "Cameron: Blood magic is an interesting one. Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences. So in Inquisition if we can't bring that across, that consequence across then we won't do it. We're looking at a couple of different options that still give that quasi-evil kind of fantasy element without trying to go into the nitty gritty of blood magic conflicting with other elements, but we haven't landed on which one's going to be there."

 

That's an OOC Development choice.  At no point does he say "I".  He consistently says "We".  That's at least one, and probably more, discussions amongst multiple people on the dev team on the nature of Blood Magic and what to do if they can't get it right and finally show the consequences of using it.  It's a specific statement on their reasoning and the probable end result.  A result, by the way, that actually came to pass with the removal and replacement of the Blood Magic specialization.

 

The developers see it as evil.  They wanted to make sure they could show it with the proper consequences, or they would remove it.  They removed it.

[LobselVith8]

Except he wasn't offering the stance on Blood Magic as his opinion. 

 

He're the quote: "Cameron: Blood magic is an interesting one. Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences. So in Inquisition if we can't bring that across, that consequence across then we won't do it. We're looking at a couple of different options that still give that quasi-evil kind of fantasy element without trying to go into the nitty gritty of blood magic conflicting with other elements, but we haven't landed on which one's going to be there."

 

Cameron Lee thinks it's evil. We have two games that call this into question. As early as the Magi Origin, we even have Duncan disagree with what the mage protagonist says if the player chooses to say that it's evil. The Joining and the phylacteries are technically blood magic, and we see Finn using a blood magic ritual to locate the Eluvian located in the Dragonbone Wastes. We even have a companion in the sequel, Merrill, who is a blood mage, but isn't using her abilities for anything remotely evil.

 

That's an OOC Development choice.  At no point does he say "I".  He consistently says "We".  That's at least one, and probably more, discussions amongst multiple people on the dev team on the nature of Blood Magic and what to do if they can't get it right and finally show the consequences of using it.  It's a specific statement on their reasoning and the probable end result.  A result, by the way, that actually came to pass with the removal and replacement of the Blood Magic specialization.

 

Developers disagree all the time, even about issues pertaining to the lore - you know this. We have Gaider saying that the Dalish live longer than the city elves the more generations they live away from humans, while Kirby said otherwise. Your disingenuous attempt to make it seem like the developers are always on the same page is noted. You're blatantly dismissing what we know from two games to cherrypick one single interview, despite knowing full well that it's a contested issue. Even the World of Thedas doesn't say that it's inherently evil.

 

The developers see it as evil.  They wanted to make sure they could show it with the proper consequences, or they would remove it.  They removed it.

 

No, Cameron Lee sees it as evil. We have two games and a book introducing readers to the World of Thedas that calls into question that opinion. Instead of trying to take a shot at me by making an inaccurate comparison, maybe you should stick with the actual topic at hand?

[LobselVith8]

Duncan isn't a man of strong convictions, period. He's the ideal "Grey" of the Grey Wardens. True neutral.

 

Except when it comes to shanking Jory. Then he's a shithead, and leaves broken families in his wake.

 

The fact that he's willing to kill someone who threatens the secrets of the Grey Wardens would suggest he's a man of strong convictions.

[The Elder King]

Duncan isn't a man of strong convictions, period. He's the ideal "Grey" of the Grey Wardens. True neutral.
 
Except when it comes to shanking Jory. Then he's a shithead, and leaves broken families in his wake.

He's not just him. Every Warden should do exactly what Duncan did in that situation.

[The Elder King]

**** the Wardens

I understand your opinion, though I understand why they do what they do.

[LobselVith8]

He's not just him. Every Warden should do exactly what Duncan did in that situation.

 

I agree. Being a Warden is a tough life, one that demands difficult sacrifices and, sometimes, unpleasant choices. Letting someone go who could cause serious damage to the Wardens would have been an asinine move on Duncan's part, and he made the tough call.

[The Elder King]

I understand too, but I'd rather they behave more like the LotD. No bullsh*t with that group.

I'm fine with how they act. They're capable of both heroic and terrible acts.