954 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I'm expecting the other shoe to drop with Corypheus.

Perhaps Cory is the agent within the Wardens (perhaps possessing the leader of the corrupted faction) while Imshael messes with the Red Templars.

[Reaverwind]

Perhaps Cory is the agent within the Wardens (perhaps possessing the leader of the corrupted faction) while Imshael messes with the Red Templars.

 

That would certainly explain the Inquisition coming into conflict with the Wardens.

[The Baconer]

I'm pretty sure that the annulment happened before the outbreak of hostilities, and added to the growing tension between Templars and mages. Aren't 100% sure though.

 

According to the note in WoT, it happened after the bad **** went down at the White Spire.

[Xilizhra]

I think we've said more or less all that can be said about mages and templars without new information.

[TK514]

Cameron Lee thinks it's evil. We have two games that call this into question. As early as the Magi Origin, we even have Duncan disagree with what the mage protagonist says if the player chooses to say that it's evil. The Joining and the phylacteries are technically blood magic, and we see Finn using a blood magic ritual to locate the Eluvian located in the Dragonbone Wastes. We even have a companion in the sequel, Merrill, who is a blood mage, but isn't using her abilities for anything remotely evil.

 

 

Developers disagree all the time, even about issues pertaining to the lore - you know this. We have Gaider saying that the Dalish live longer than the city elves the more generations they live away from humans, while Kirby said otherwise. Your disingenuous attempt to make it seem like the developers are always on the same page is noted. You're blatantly dismissing what we know from two games to cherrypick one single interview, despite knowing full well that it's a contested issue. Even the World of Thedas doesn't say that it's inherently evil.

 

 

No, Cameron Lee sees it as evil. We have two games and a book introducing readers to the World of Thedas that calls into question that opinion. Instead of trying to take a shot at me by making an inaccurate comparison, maybe you should stick with the actual topic at hand?

 

Please, drop the victim act.  You are not some innocent being picked on and bullied by mean old TK.  You are a participant in a discussion and I, as another participant, am directly calling you out for what I perceive as inconsistencies in the argument you present and how you present it.

 

I have consistently stated that I believe new information trumps old.  You have clung to years old statements from Gaider that harken back to DA:O, when we have new information from Kirby as recent as last year and Lee from April.  Information that the developers have had plenty of opportunity to refute, clarify or rescind, and yet have not done so.

 

You correctly state that developers can disagree.  You know what else they do?  Change their minds.  There are places where DA2 disagrees with DA:O.  There are plenty of places where they changed the lore.  The setting has evolved as the developers have refined their ideas and changed their views.  You don't get to 'cherry pick', as you put it, the parts of setting you like, ignore the parts you don't, and present that as the whole picture.

 

There may have been a time when the developers didn't think Blood Magic was evil, but it is obvious that this is no longer the case.  Lee is not offering an opinion.  At no point does he say anything even remotely like 'I think Blood Magic is evil, and I think it would be neat that if we couldn't show the consequences of using it that maybe we could replace it.  That would be cool, but we'll see what other people think'.  He is specifically talking about real internal discussions that have already taken place at the time of the interview.  They discussed Blood Magic.  He states the lore talks in several places about how evil it is.  They decided that if they couldn't show the consequences of using it that they would replace it, and at the time of the interview were already looking at possible replacements.  These are facts.  Facts further supported by the removal of the Blood Magic specialization and its replacement by Necromancy.

 

If ANY Developer came in here tomorrow and posted that Elves were immortal, Templars were evil, and Blood Magic was just misunderstood by the masses and misrepresented by the Chantry, I'd accept it.  They're the developers.  They create the reality we only discuss.  When they make public statements, I assume they are speaking from a position of authority until new information renders what they said obsolete. 

 

However, when the opposite is true, and anyone but Gaider, and maybe even him were it to happen, say Elves only live as long as humans and Blood Magic is evil, you refuse to accept it.  You cite convention panel reports and interviews that are years out of date or claim 'opinion'.  And yet you're more than willing to accept any developer's statement as long as they agree with your position.

 

Really, I'm not going to take accusations from you of 'cherry picking' all that seriously.

 

The topic is Mages vs Templars.  Blood Magic's moral standing in the world and the consequences for its use are very much on topic.  It is one of the primary reasons for the Chantry's stance on mages and thus the origins and purpose of the Templar order.  The moral, spiritual and physical repercussions of Blood Magic help determine fundamental aspects of the character of the Chantry as an organization, and its various subgroups.  When you dismiss an argument based on a recent developer statement as 'opinion' because you don't like it and turn around and use a quote from the exact same developer to support something you do agree with, I am well within topic to call you on it, and I question your willingness and ability to debate the subject in good faith.

 

You want to call into question Lee's statement?  Find another one from around the same time or newer that contradicts or clarifies your position on it.  Explain how what he says is not supported by the removal of the Blood Magic specialization.  Give me page and verse where WoT is unambiguous about the subject.  Get a dev in here to clarify.  Really, anything but years old info that is directly superseded by newer information that you dismiss because you don't like it.

[Xilizhra]

The topic is Mages vs Templars.  Blood Magic's moral standing in the world and the consequences for its use are very much on topic.  It is one of the primary reasons for the Chantry's stance on mages and thus the origins and purpose of the Templar order.  The moral, spiritual and physical repercussions of Blood Magic help determine fundamental aspects of the character of the Chantry as an organization, and its various subgroups.  When you dismiss an argument based on a recent developer statement as 'opinion' because you don't like it and turn around and use a quote from the exact same developer to support something you do agree with, I am well within topic to call you on it, and I question your willingness and ability to debate the subject in good faith.

 

You want to call into question Lee's statement?  Find another one from around the same time or newer that contradicts or clarifies your position on it.  Explain how what he says is not supported by the removal of the Blood Magic specialization.  Give me page and verse where WoT is unambiguous about the subject.  Get a dev in here to clarify.  Really, anything but years old info that is directly superseded by newer information that you dismiss because you don't like it.

All well and good, but the real flaw in Lee's statement is that, unless Dragon Age has D&D character alignments that no one ever told us about, or unless the actual magic is somehow sapient and malevolent, it's completely meaningless. It's solidly canon that the practice of blood magic does not make its practitioner evil; it's also solidly canon that the practice of blood magic does not automatically lead to demonic possession. If blood magic is "evil," it's evil solely in a deontological sense, not a consequentialist one.

[LobselVith8]

Please, drop the victim act.  You are not some innocent being picked on and bullied by mean old TK.  You are a participant in a discussion and I, as another participant, am directly calling you out for what I perceive as inconsistencies in the argument you present and how you present it.

 

I don't see any inconsistency. We already know that practicing blood magic doesn't turn the user evil, nor does it automatically lead to possession or nefarious deeds. If a developer says something that isn't consistent with multiple games, then I see a problem.

 

I have consistently stated that I believe new information trumps old.  You have clung to years old statements from Gaider that harken back to DA:O, when we have new information from Kirby as recent as last year and Lee from April.  Information that the developers have had plenty of opportunity to refute, clarify or rescind, and yet have not done so.

 

Actually, I've stated in recent discussions that we don't know what the truth is about the longevity of the Dalish, due to conflicting developer statements from Gaider and Kirby.

 

If ANY Developer came in here tomorrow and posted that Elves were immortal, Templars were evil, and Blood Magic was just misunderstood by the masses and misrepresented by the Chantry, I'd accept it.  They're the developers.  They create the reality we only discuss.  When they make public statements, I assume they are speaking from a position of authority until new information renders what they said obsolete. 

 

The truth doesn't work that way. We know that templars aren't inherently evil, because we've met Ser Bryant and the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and I'd argue, Knight-Commander Greagoir. It's certainly the right of one of the developers to say the templars are evil, but that doesn't make it so. A plethora of fans disagreed with Gaider - especially some pro-templar fans - when he said it was selfish of The Warden to make Loghain a Grey Warden, because they felt that the story didn't back up that assertion.

 

There may have been a time when the developers didn't think Blood Magic was evil, but it is obvious that this is no longer the case.  Lee is not offering an opinion.  At no point does he say anything even remotely like 'I think Blood Magic is evil, and I think it would be neat that if we couldn't show the consequences of using it that maybe we could replace it.  That would be cool, but we'll see what other people think'.  He is specifically talking about real internal discussions that have already taken place at the time of the interview.  They discussed Blood Magic.  He states the lore talks in several places about how evil it is.  They decided that if they couldn't show the consequences of using it that they would replace it, and at the time of the interview were already looking at possible replacements.  These are facts.  Facts further supported by the removal of the Blood Magic specialization and its replacement by Necromancy.

 

It's not surprising they can't show the consequences of being a blood mage, considering the specializations were done last, and it's a school of magic that's almost universally loathed by most. However, the lore doesn't read that it's inherently evil; in fact, it reads that it is used by people for purposes that aren't nefarious: "Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

 

To top if off, Merrill is already an example of a blood mage who uses blood magic and isn't evil, nor is she confined to using it for evil purposes.

 

However, when the opposite is true, and anyone but Gaider, and maybe even him were it to happen, say Elves only live as long as humans and Blood Magic is evil, you refuse to accept it.  You cite convention panel reports and interviews that are years out of date or claim 'opinion'.  And yet you're more than willing to accept any developer's statement as long as they agree with your position.

 

Really, I'm not going to take accusations from you of 'cherry picking' all that seriously.

 

You're claiming that I dismiss Kirby's post in recent discussions when I've said we don't know what the truth is regarding their longevity due to the conflicting information from developers. You can't even properly address what I've stated in the past, so I don't find your stance that surprising. 

 

The topic is Mages vs Templars.  Blood Magic's moral standing in the world and the consequences for its use are very much on topic.  It is one of the primary reasons for the Chantry's stance on mages and thus the origins and purpose of the Templar order.  The moral, spiritual and physical repercussions of Blood Magic help determine fundamental aspects of the character of the Chantry as an organization, and its various subgroups.  When you dismiss an argument based on a recent developer statement as 'opinion' because you don't like it and turn around and use a quote from the exact same developer to support something you do agree with, I am well within topic to call you on it, and I question your willingness and ability to debate the subject in good faith.

 

No, I'm disinclined to take it as gospel because we already have two games that contradict it. Also, your initial comparison was completely nonsensical - comparing my citation of what the Inquisitor can do - by siding with the mages or templars - isn't parallel to my opposition to a statement where Lee feels that blood magic is evil.

 

You want to call into question Lee's statement?  Find another one from around the same time or newer that contradicts or clarifies your position on it.  Explain how what he says is not supported by the removal of the Blood Magic specialization.  Give me page and verse where WoT is unambiguous about the subject.  Get a dev in here to clarify.  Really, anything but years old info that is directly superseded by newer information that you dismiss because you don't like it.

 

In other words, we should dismiss the years of previous information that address it as ambiguous because you favor Lee's recent statement over the previous information where it was grey? What's the point?

[Lucijenifer]

Well, 'evil' is usually defined as something that negatively impacts society as a whole and to tell the truth, that's exactly what blood magic does outside of the Tevinter Imperium. Blood magic could potentially be the source of the Breach, it's one of the major causes of abominations and possession and really, it invites disaster. Use of blood magic outside of a few exceptions tends to be extremely irresponsible and usually end in extreme violence or chaos. As such, it's irresponsible to resort to blood magic, even if it's not strictly evil.

[LobselVith8]

Well, 'evil' is usually defined as something that negatively impacts society as a whole and to tell the truth, that's exactly what blood magic does outside of the Tevinter Imperium. Blood magic could potentially be the source of the Breach, it's one of the major causes of abominations and possession and really, it invites disaster. Use of blood magic outside of a few exceptions tends to be extremely irresponsible and usually end in extreme violence or chaos. As such, it's irresponsible to resort to blood magic, even if it's not strictly evil.

 

Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn and protect the world doesn't seem evil to me. Finn using a form of blood magic to locate an Eluvian doesn't seem evil to me. Merrill using blood magic to remove taint from a shard, or to protect her friends from danger, doesn't seem evil to me. A Circle mage named Alain turned to blood magic because he wanted to topple Meredith's dictatorship, and he suffered abuses from templars - including rape - in the Circle of Kirwall; he wasn't evil, nor were his reasons for working with Thrask. I'm not seeing the claim of blood magic as inherently evil backed up by what we know.

[Xilizhra]

Well, 'evil' is usually defined as something that negatively impacts society as a whole and to tell the truth, that's exactly what blood magic does outside of the Tevinter Imperium. Blood magic could potentially be the source of the Breach, it's one of the major causes of abominations and possession and really, it invites disaster. Use of blood magic outside of a few exceptions tends to be extremely irresponsible and usually end in extreme violence or chaos. As such, it's irresponsible to resort to blood magic, even if it's not strictly evil.

All of that is a possibility rather than a certainty. It's like calling radiation evil: certainly it'll **** you over if misused, and misusing it is quite easy while using it properly is harder and requires many safeguards, but that hardly means it can never be used for good.

[Lucijenifer]

Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn and protect the world doesn't seem evil to me. Finn using a form of blood magic to locate an Eluvian doesn't seem evil to me. Merrill using blood magic to remove taint from a shard, or to protect her friends from danger, doesn't seem evil to me. A Circle mage named Alain turned to blood magic because he wanted to topple Meredith's dictatorship, and he suffered abuses from templars - including rape - in the Circle of Kirwall; he wasn't evil, nor were his reasons for working with Thrask. I'm not seeing the claim of blood magic as inherently evil backed up by what we know.

 

The way it's used by the Grey Wardens is possibly the best one.

Finn's method is relatively harmless.

Merrill resorting to blood magic in a location where the Veil is that thin and where demonic influence is so rampant is hideously irresponsible.

And when Alain resorts to blood magic, he does the same.

 

Irresponsible is a better word than evil, like I said. Although it doesn't directly involve spirits or demons, it thins the Veil to a point where beings of the Fade are more than capable of slipping through in reality. By using blood magic, you endanger yourself and those around you, increasing the likely-hood of possession and demonic incursion. Outside of a few exceptions, those who use blood magic are either callous and don't care about the impact it has, uneducated and don't know about the impact it has or are irresponsible and don't think about the impact it has. I'd say that those who fall under the first group, such as the Tevinter Imperium, are almost certainly evil.

[Xilizhra]

The way it's used by the Grey Wardens is possibly the best one.

Finn's method is relatively harmless.

Merrill resorting to blood magic in a location where the Veil is that thin and where demonic influence is so rampant is hideously irresponsible.

And when Alain resorts to blood magic, he does the same.

 

Irresponsible is a better word than evil, like I said. Although it doesn't directly involve spirits or demons, it thins the Veil to a point where beings of the Fade are more than capable of slipping through in reality. By using blood magic, you endanger yourself and those around you, increasing the likely-hood of possession and demonic incursion. Outside of a few exceptions, those who use blood magic are either callous and don't care about the impact it has, uneducated and don't know about the impact it has or are irresponsible and don't think about the impact it has. I'd say that those who fall under the first group, such as the Tevinter Imperium, are almost certainly evil.

I would say that, given Merrill's relatively constant use of blood magic without ever causing any Veil problems in Kirkwall, that she knows the proper safeguards.

[Lucijenifer]

I would say that, given Merrill's relatively constant use of blood magic without ever causing any Veil problems in Kirkwall, that she knows the proper safeguards.

 

That we know of. I wouldn't be surprised if she was unknowingly contributing to the deterioration of the Veil, despite the fact that she didn't suffer the consequences for it herself.

[Xilizhra]

That we know of. I wouldn't be surprised if she was unknowingly contributing to the deterioration of the Veil, despite the fact that she didn't suffer the consequences for it herself.

One could hypothesize it, but since there were never any Veil issues connected to her or even to the Alienage where she was working, there's about as much evidence for that as there is for Meredith and Orsino being secret lovers. And rather less evidence than there is for Greagoir and Irving being secret lovers.

[LobselVith8]

That we know of. I wouldn't be surprised if she was unknowingly contributing to the deterioration of the Veil, despite the fact that she didn't suffer the consequences for it herself.

 

The veil was already thin there, since death in general weakens the veil, as we know from the Brecillian Forest. It's part of the reason behind the Band of Three codex entries, that describe Kirkwall is basically a Tevinter Hellmouth.

[Lucijenifer]

One could hypothesize it, but since there were never any Veil issues connected to her or even to the Alienage where she was working, there's about as much evidence for that as there is for Meredith and Orsino being secret lovers. And rather less evidence than there is for Greagoir and Irving being secret lovers.

 

The veil was already thin there, since death in general weakens the veil, as we know from the Brecillian Forest. It's part of the reason behind the Band of Three codex entries, that describe Kirkwall is basically a Tevinter Hellmouth.

 

I'm aware that the Veil was already thin there but I suppose if the Tevinter Imperium throws around blood magic like it's nothing with little consequence, then some other mages such as Merrill are likely capable of the same. Sometimes it does seem like consequences only occur for blood mages when Bioware feels like reminding us about its bad sides. The danger of blood magic does seem a little more than a poorly disguised plot device most of the time.

[Xilizhra]

I actually think that necromancy will be a variant of blood magic. Either that, or it doesn't actually take blood magic to rend the Veil and summon demons to raise corpses, which would be pretty major.

[Lucijenifer]

I actually think that necromancy will be a variant of blood magic. Either that, or it doesn't actually take blood magic to rend the Veil and summon demons to raise corpses, which would be pretty major.

 

That'd be massive. No war in the history of Thedas has managed to cause tears in the Veil like this, so death can't be the cause of it. It has to be either blood magic or something that we know nothing about yet.

[TheJediSaint]

That'd be massive. No war in the history of Thedas has managed to cause tears in the Veil like this, so death can't be the cause of it. It has to be either blood magic or something that we know nothing about yet.

 

The closest thing in the lore would be when the Magisters breached the Golden City and started the Blights.

[Lucijenifer]

The closest thing in the lore would be when the Magisters breached the Golden City and started the Blights.

 

Except it seems like the other way around, with entities from the Fade forcing their way into reality rather than vice versa.

 

So, who on the other side of the Veil could possibly want to cause the Breach?

[Xilizhra]

That'd be massive. No war in the history of Thedas has managed to cause tears in the Veil like this, so death can't be the cause of it. It has to be either blood magic or something that we know nothing about yet.

I more meant necromancy as used by the PC mage, or Dorian.

[TheJediSaint]

Except it seems like the other way around, with entities from the Fade forcing their way into reality rather than vice versa.

 

So, who on the other side of the Veil could possibly want to cause the Breach?

 

David Gaider typing on a keyboard would be my guess.

[Lucijenifer]

I more meant necromancy as used by the PC mage, or Dorian.

 

Oh! Well, stupid little me for the misunderstanding.

 

Only time will tell exactly what necromancy is. I'd be shocked if it's completely unrelated to blood magic, as that reshapes magic as we know it.

[Hellion Rex]

I actually think that necromancy will be a variant of blood magic. Either that, or it doesn't actually take blood magic to rend the Veil and summon demons to raise corpses, which would be pretty major.

Well, Yavana, I believe, used a drop of someone's blood to raise their ghost. So, in some senses, I can imagine it's tied together. Also, Quentin was a blood mage and necromancer to boot.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Yavana, I believe, used a drop of someone's blood to raise their ghost. So, in some senses, I can imagine it's tied together. Also, Quentin was a blood mage and necromancer to boot.

As was Decimus, and a few others. So it's likely tied, yes, but will you cast from hit points...?