954 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucijenifer]

I don't see how necromancy would fare much better. In any case, the Grey Wardens are allowed to use blood magic; I don't see this being excessively different.

 

A very specific form of blood magic, not casting whatever they want.

[Lucijenifer]

No, their mages are allowed to use other forms of it, not just the Joining.

 

Really? That's something I didn't realise. I'll step out of the discussion to stop myself from saying anything else silly.

[Mistic]

Merrill wasn't an idiot. Having culture shock about a foreign society doesn't equate to idiocy. We see her intellect demonstrated time and again - her proficiency with magic, her ability to discern that the recruit Keran wasn't possessed, her talent to distinguish the nature of the Profane Abomination and Torpor, and we see her build a highly advanced piece of ancient elven technology from a single shard - through the pain-staking effort of studying the lore on the Eluvians, and extrapolating information from the shard. I thought Merrill was an excellent example of a good mage.

 

I think it's the halo effect. Let's be honest and accept that Merrill's people skills and naivety in certain things can make some people think that she's a walking disaster, but as you say she's really skillful about other things. The truth is, no one can be good at everything. Merrill's case is just more extreme than others.

 

If we're talking about mage abilities, however, there's a thing I have against her: her total failure in the quest Night Terrors if you bring her with you. In magical terms, she failed a Harrowing, the exam every Circle mage must pass.

 

And before you say that most of the other companions failed too, remember that they weren't mages, so they weren't supposed to be trained against demonic possession. The only other mages present were Anders and possibly Hawke, and they both passed. This is specially important since it's Merrill the one using blood mage (as WoT says, it makes mages more susceptible to possession) and getting help from a demon to rebuild a magic mirror, not Anders or Hawke.

 

(Mm, could that have been DAII's way to showcase the setting's point about blood magic?)

[The Hierophant]

Being a mage is also a social stigma that usually ends up in a lynch mob, as we know from Wynne and Mother Hannah assuring an Amell Warden that he won't come to harm. You could criticize the lack of reactivity to that as well. I think part of the issues would be resolved by having companions comment on the protagonist being a blood mage, and the main character being able to discuss the issue.

Not only that but being a bloodmage should stonewall the pc out of negotiating with certain faction members or make it more difficult to do so. Considering that bloodmagic can amplify normal spells, it should allow demons to stalk the pc over greater distances as those things are like magical bloodhounds.

[Sir DeLoria]

Ooh, I like the new avatar, General.

Nanobites son.

[Xilizhra]

I think it's the halo effect. Let's be honest and accept that Merrill's people skills and naivety in certain things can make some people think that she's a walking disaster, but as you say she's really skillful about other things. The truth is, no one can be good at everything. Merrill's case is just more extreme than others.

 

If we're talking about mage abilities, however, there's a thing I have against her: her total failure in the quest Night Terrors if you bring her with you. In magical terms, she failed a Harrowing, the exam every Circle mage must pass.

 

And before you say that most of the other companions failed too, remember that they weren't mages, so they weren't supposed to be trained against demonic possession. The only other mages present were Anders and possibly Hawke, and they both passed. This is specially important since it's Merrill the one using blood mage (as WoT says, it makes mages more susceptible to possession) and getting help from a demon to rebuild a magic mirror, not Anders or Hawke.

 

(Mm, could that have been DAII's way to showcase the setting's point about blood magic?)

It's not a Harrowing; the test takes place in the Fade realm of a dreamer, and dreamers make the Fade even more mutable than it is already. Outright demonic mind control, of the type that cannot be used in the mage PC's own Harrowing, is far more achievable here.

Also, the demons never try to control Hawke, and Anders fails utterly: Justice takes over his body completely.

 

 

Not only that but being a bloodmage should stonewall the pc out of negotiating with certain faction members or make it more difficult to do so. Considering that bloodmagic can amplify normal spells, it should allow demons to stalk the pc over greater distances as those things are like magical bloodhounds.

Assuming that mobile enemies like that actually exist in-game. And the former might be made up for by mind control powers.

[The Elder King]

Anders didn't pass anything in night terrors. Justice took full control of his body. Were you expecting him to agree with one of the demons?

[LobselVith8]

If we're talking about mage abilities, however, there's a thing I have against her: her total failure in the quest Night Terrors if you bring her with you. In magical terms, she failed a Harrowing, the exam every Circle mage must pass.

 

And before you say that most of the other companions failed too, remember that they weren't mages, so they weren't supposed to be trained against demonic possession. The only other mages present were Anders and possibly Hawke, and they both passed. This is specially important since it's Merrill the one using blood mage (as WoT says, it makes mages more susceptible to possession) and getting help from a demon to rebuild a magic mirror, not Anders or Hawke.

 

It's not simply that everyone else did, it's that everyone tries to kill Hawke after speaking with one of the two spirits after a few seconds of dialogue. If Merrill was that susceptible to a spirit, I doubt she would have remained in control of her cognitive faculties for several years in Kirkwall, one of the worst places in Thedas for a mage to live in.

 

I don't hold "Night Terrors" against Merrill. I also don't hold Cullen handwaving Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry against Cullen, either.

[The Hierophant]

I don't see how necromancy would fare much better. In any case, the Grey Wardens are allowed to use blood magic; I don't see this being excessively different.

A bloodmage leading a powerful military organization in the Chantry dominated southern Thedas is not the same. Outside of Tevinter, bloodmages are majorly feared, and reviled. Wouldn't be surprised if the Inquisitor is viewed as a Tevinter agent.

[Xilizhra]

A bloodmage leading a powerful military organization in the Chantry dominated southern Thedas is not the same. Outside of Tevinter, bloodmages are majorly feared, and reviled. Wouldn't be surprised if the Inquisitor is viewed as a Tevinter agent.

It's possible. It might even be an interesting subplot, which is probably another reason why the specialization was removed: it'd necessitate rewriting too much of the game. But it's sort of a shame that we couldn't do it, because it'd be fascinating.

[Dean_the_Young]

Interesting idea. However, I think we'd have to capture and contain them early, before hitting full behemoth stage, as I think those would be nigh uncontrollable. Also, we'd have to be careful of red lyrium corruption.

 

On the other hand, corrupted lyrium is actually a thing, and probably brought about by the Taint to boot.

 

Considering how the taint twists and corrupts everything towards the Darkspawn... are you sure you want to give the Darkspawn red lyrium golems?

[The Hierophant]

It's possible. It might even be an interesting subplot, which is probably another reason why the specialization was removed: it'd necessitate rewriting too much of the game. But it's sort of a shame that we couldn't do it, because it'd be fascinating.

Agreed.

If the next game is in Tevinter like how some have speculated then bloodmagic is a given, while the Templar spec has to be put on the shelf.

[TheJediSaint]

Agreed.

If the next game is in Tevinter like how some have speculated then bloodmagic is a given, while the Templar spec has to be put on the shelf.

 

Why?  Tevinter has Templars of their own.

[Lucijenifer]

If the next game is in Tevinter like how some have speculated then bloodmagic is a given, while the Templar spec has to be put on the shelf.

 

As much as I'd love that, I can't see it happening.

 

You've seen how people on BSN react to even the slightest mention of slavery. How do you think they'd respond to game set right in the middle of it?

[Xilizhra]

On the other hand, corrupted lyrium is actually a thing, and probably brought about by the Taint to boot.

 

Considering how the taint twists and corrupts everything towards the Darkspawn... are you sure you want to give the Darkspawn red lyrium golems?

That seems highly unlikely. The darkspawn stayed completely away from the primeval thaig, and the profane do not seem to be their friends. They're both malign, but different flavors, like with darkspawn and demons.

 

 

Agreed.

If the next game is in Tevinter like how some have speculated then bloodmagic is a given, while the Templar spec has to be put on the shelf.

I do hope it's there. Maybe there they can do it justice.

[Mistic]

It's not simply that everyone else did, it's that everyone tries to kill Hawke after speaking with one of the two spirits after a few seconds of dialogue.

 

Given that Merrill did the same after the same few seconds of dialogue, I don't see what's your point, sorry

 

If Merrill was that susceptible to a spirit, I doubt she would have remained in control of her cognitive faculties for several years in Kirkwall, one of the worst places in Thedas for a mage to live in.

 

As I have pointed out, she didn't, at least for a night, she didn't. I know that she's a better mage than others. As you say, it's the only way she could have survived so long in Kirkwall. However, I think that she's not as good as it would be advisable in her position, because she's the one that insists that using blood magic and accepting help from a demon is acceptable. That means she's the one who has to prove the most for her points to be accepted.

 

But maybe I'm nitpicking. Truth be told, first time I played Night Terrors my Hawke brought Merrill, Anders and Fenris with him (mages and elves just to be sure), and Merrill ended up being the only one to turn against him. Until later I didn't find out the possible combinations of treasons during the quest, but it was such a shocking revelation that my Hawke, who had been earning friend points until then, started rivalmancing her all the way. Blind roleplaying can make great stories. That is mine. What was yours?

[Xilizhra]

As I have pointed out, she didn't, at least for a night, she didn't. I know that she's a better mage than others. As you say, it's the only way she could have survived so long in Kirkwall. However, I think that she's not as good as it would be advisable in her position, because she's the one that insists that using blood magic and accepting help from a demon is acceptable. That means she's the one who has to prove the most for her points to be accepted.

 

But maybe I'm nitpicking. Truth be told, first time I played Night Terrors my Hawke brought Merrill, Anders and Fenris with him (mages and elves just to be sure), and Merrill ended up being the only one to turn against him. Until later I didn't find out the possible combinations of treasons during the quest, but it was such a shocking revelation that my Hawke, who had been earning friend points until then, started rivalmancing her all the way. Blind roleplaying can make great stories. That is mine. What was yours?

Mind control either way, in a situation practically impossible to duplicate. I wouldn't worry.

 

And the first time I did it, I had Isabela, Aveline and Anders, so only Isabela turned on me.

[The Hierophant]

*just noticed*

Why? Tevinter has Templars of their own.

Since the Magisters wield absolute power in Tevinter i assume that they'd severely restrict knowledge on the Templar's abilities as it opposes their own.

As much as I'd love that, I can't see it happening.

You've seen how people on BSN react to even the slightest mention of slavery. How do you think they'd respond to game set right in the middle of it?

True. Though i think they might be happy if their pc can play a role in the abolition of Tevinter's slave system.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why?  Tevinter has Templars of their own.

 

Most of them don't have any anti magic abilities though. Then again, those that do are probably less rare than something like an Arcane Warrior.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Tevinter Imperium, the biggest villains of all, are also capable of shrugging off the negatives of blood magic - although we don't know why - so that's not a valid explanation.

 

We don't actually know that they are shrugging off the negatives of blood magic. They could just be coping with it as is.

 

There's a reoccuring argument that Tevinter must not get abominations (or gets fewer than Andrastian nations) because they have more free mages and yet we don't hear about them being overrun by abominations. This is usually the supporting proof for an argument that Tevinter-model education is superior because -reasons-.

 

I've never really bought that argument on two grounds: one, our information on Tevinter is severely limited in the first place and never had particular reason to focus on the abominations, and two, Tevinter is very much the sort of place where I doubt mundane suffering to magic and even abominations would be considered exceptional and spread around.

 

Human suffering is always a matter of perspective and what you're accustomed to. A hurricane hits Florida, and it's business as usual for the season. A tropical storm, significantly less than a hurricane, hits high up the east coast and it dominates the media for weeks.

 

I like that analogy not least because the Riviane witches, the willing abominations, are described as 'forces of nature.' Some people see the social acceptance of the witches as proof of a lesser threat... but I think the description is the better analogy. Forces of nature come to be accepted regardless of their nature.

I don't know what the comparable abomination rate for Tevinter is (though all indications is that magic abuse is far higher), but I really wouldn't be surprised if we didn't hear about it because no one particularly cares when it does happen. If you had a Baroness in Tevinter... well, she might either fit right in, but if she wiped a small village off the map who would take much note? Tevinter infighting on massive scale is legendary.

[Dean_the_Young]

As much as I'd love that, I can't see it happening.

 

You've seen how people on BSN react to even the slightest mention of slavery. How do you think they'd respond to game set right in the middle of it?

 

It would be glorious.

[Xilizhra]

We don't actually know that they are shrugging off the negatives of blood magic. They could just be coping with it as is.

 

There's a reoccuring argument that Tevinter must not get abominations (or gets fewer than Andrastian nations) because they have more free mages and yet we don't hear about them being overrun by abominations. This is usually the supporting proof for an argument that Tevinter-model education is superior because -reasons-.

 

I've never really bought that argument on two grounds: one, our information on Tevinter is severely limited in the first place and never had particular reason to focus on the abominations, and two, Tevinter is very much the sort of place where I doubt mundane suffering to magic and even abominations would be considered exceptional and spread around.

 

Human suffering is always a matter of perspective and what you're accustomed to. A hurricane hits Florida, and it's business as usual for the season. A tropical storm, significantly less than a hurricane, hits high up the east coast and it dominates the media for weeks.

 

I like that analogy not least because the Riviane witches, the willing abominations, are described as 'forces of nature.' Some people see the social acceptance of the witches as proof of a lesser threat... but I think the description is the better analogy. Forces of nature come to be accepted regardless of their nature.

I don't know what the comparable abomination rate for Tevinter is (though all indications is that magic abuse is far higher), but I really wouldn't be surprised if we didn't hear about it because no one particularly cares when it does happen. If you had a Baroness in Tevinter... well, she might either fit right in, but if she wiped a small village off the map who would take much note? Tevinter infighting on massive scale is legendary.

Every bit of this being another reason to see Tevinter for ourselves in the next game. There's too much to learn not to.

[Dean_the_Young]

Every bit of this being another reason to see Tevinter for ourselves in the next game. There's too much to learn not to.

I think Rivain would be a better.

 

It's pretty much the multi-cultural country of Thedas, and would allow you to not only bring in Tevinter but a number of other nations and factions. It'd be a good place to go next after Inquisition destabilizes Thedas and Orlais: with southern Thedas recovering, but the Templar-Mage war likely passing over Rivain (due to the local circle already being annuled), it'd make a good region for any new Tevinter-Qunari tensions along with the standard obligatory Dalish plotline.

[Xilizhra]

I think Rivain would be a better.

 

It's pretty much the multi-cultural country of Thedas, and would allow you to not only bring in Tevinter but a number of other nations and factions. It'd be a good place to go next after Inquisition destabilizes Thedas and Orlais: with southern Thedas recovering, but the Templar-Mage war likely passing over Rivain (due to the local circle already being annuled), it'd make a good region for any new Tevinter-Qunari tensions along with the standard obligatory Dalish plotline.

We can visit Rivain too, but I want to see Tevinter more; it's pretty much the birthplace of Thedas as we know it, the original bastion of humanity, and a remarkably exotic land overall.

[Mistic]

Every bit of this being another reason to see Tevinter for ourselves in the next game. There's too much to learn not to.

 

That is true. Hopefully, Dorian will be able to provide some answers this time.

 

However, even Tevinter recognizes the dangers of blood magic. There was this text in WoT by Magister Aesthia teaching her apprentice that blood magic was overrated and she mentions one case of possession (the "Ascended Man" project).