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[Gervaise]

I was re-reading Masked Empire and near the beginning Celene is studying Lelianna and notes that her accent is Orlesian but her features are Ferelden.   Now up to now I've always considered the only thing that really distinguishes Orlais from their neighbours is the accent.   However, I don't ever recall an Orlesian with red hair so I suppose that could be a feature of native Fereldens not found elsewhere.   Yet her hair had already been mentioned and it seemed to imply her features as a whole.   So has this been mentioned anywhere.   Do Ferelden's generally have fairer skin, different bone structure, larger or different coloured eyes?   What is it about Lelianna that immediately makes Celene think "Ferelden".

[Tenebrae]

Nothing has been confirmed as to being different, though it wouldn’t surprise me.

 

All you have to do is look at the different bone structure,skin tones and common eye and hair color when it comes to different ethnic groups irl, so if one assumes that the laws of genetics which govern thedas are similar to our own then there would have to be a difference in features when it comes to different ethnic groups in thedas.

[Wolfen09]

if duke prosper was any indication, he had a really big nose

[Gervaise]

But there has never really been any suggestion of an ethnicity thing with Orlais and Ferelden.   If anything they both spring from similar stock, the barbarian hordes of Maferath.   Each tribe may have originally been ethnically different but that would have become mixed up in the subsequent centuries after the horde as a whole took over southern Thedas.   It is very much like the situation in Europe.   You can look at someone and say, due to their skin tone, that they may have a more Mediterranean background but the actual facial structure of someone from England isn't so different from that of France or Spain or Italy.   

 

Orlais has only been around for just over 900 years.   Ferelden has been around as an independent state for even less time.    The only way they could have developed a totally different ethnic look would have been if they had been totally insular and come from a different source of genetic material.   Okay, evidence suggests that on the whole nobles only breed with nobles but that wouldn't necessarily result in a distinct type across the board.    For a long time nobles only bred with nobles in Europe but because we all traced to a similar root stock, there is no distinct different between various nationalities.  

 

We have at least 2 images of Celene to consider.   Does she look so very different from Leliana aside from skin tone and hair colour?

[Wulfram]

Well, the Dales would serve as a buffer of sorts and Fereldan is kind of a backwater.

 

But, yeah, I don't think you'd be able to make any sort of conclusive identification.

[Tenebrae]

But there has never really been any suggestion of an ethnicity thing with Orlais and Ferelden.   If anything they both spring from similar stock, the barbarian hordes of Maferath.   Each tribe may have originally been ethnically different but that would have become mixed up in the subsequent centuries after the horde as a whole took over southern Thedas.   It is very much like the situation in Europe.   You can look at someone and say, due to their skin tone, that they may have a more Mediterranean background but the actual facial structure of someone from England isn't so different from that of France or Spain or Italy.   

 

Orlais has only been around for just over 900 years.   Ferelden has been around as an independent state for even less time.    The only way they could have developed a totally different ethnic look would have been if they had been totally insular and come from a different source of genetic material.   Okay, evidence suggests that on the whole nobles only breed with nobles but that wouldn't necessarily result in a distinct type across the board.    For a long time nobles only bred with nobles in Europe but because we all traced to a similar root stock, there is no distinct different between various nationalities.  

 

We have at least 2 images of Celene to consider.   Does she look so very different from Leliana aside from skin tone and hair colour?

 

There is quite a difference if we are talking about the native Anglo-Saxons of England and the native (which i won't even try to identify, seeing as it's always been a mess) French, even more so if we are discussing the Celtic welsh or the Scotts, and there is a major difference in features whe one examines a native Italian and a native English man, granted not as much of a difference as we might see between and an Indian man and an English man but still the difference is there and it is detectable.

 

As for Theadas, I agree that as of now there has been no conformation as to ethnicity being overly different between Orlais and Ferelden, but you have to remember that game developers and story tellers have a tendency of keeping things such as this vague, it gives them wiggle room for when they decide that its of value to the story being told.

 

And as for Celene, right now we have no images only artwork but when the game comes out we can perform a more through examination of features.

[Basement Cat]

What is it about Lelianna that immediately makes Celene think "Ferelden".

The brown teeth, obviously. 

[Tenebrae]

The brown teeth, obviously. 

 

I still remember the storm some people worked up when origins first came out "What the hell bioware!? Brown teeth really?! Lazy sods..", never mind the fact that it might fit within the context of the lore.

[javeart]

Discussing Thedas ethnicities a while ago in another thread, I came to the conclussion that lore-wise things were not exactly clear, and I don't think we have ever seen anything that could support the notion that fereldans and orleasians have unique and distinctive physical traits. So, honestly, the description highlight Leliana mixed backgrounds, which I guess is important to the character itself, but I simply ignore its consequences. 

 

I admit that I do this kind of lightly and without giving it much thought, because I'm far from taking lore really seriously 

 

 

 

There is quite a difference if we are talking about the native Anglo-Saxons of England and the native (which i won't even try to identify, seeing as it's always been a mess) French, even more so if we are discussing the Celtic welsh or the Scotts, and there is a major difference in features whe one examines a native Italian and a native English man, granted not as much of a difference as we might see between and an Indian man and an English man but still the difference is there and it is detectable. (...)

 

 

I'm curious: what do you mean by native and what kind of differences (other than skin tone and eye color) do you find between English or Italians?

[Tenebrae]

Natives are of course the current majority of said nation, which in most cases relates to people who can trace their family as to living in said nation for many a century, while there are some expectations most nation fit said bill.

 

As for differences take a look at this link The average woman revealed for a minor example (I would upload said images directly but bsn is being stubborn), And yes this is just a study and you can dismiss this if you want but from my own personal experience the results fit.

 

And honestly all you have to do is travel the world and the differences become obvious, at least as far as i am concerned.

[Joe25]

Orlesians have faces? I thought they wore masks to hind the fact they all look like Slender Man.  

[javeart]

Natives are of course the current majority of said nation, which in most cases relates to people who can trace their family as to living in said nation for many a century, while there are some expectations most nation fit said bill.

 

As for differences take a look at this link The average woman revealed for a minor example (I would upload said images directly but bsn is being stubborn), And yes this is just a study and you can dismiss this if you want but from my own personal experience the results fit.

 

And honestly all you have to do is travel the world and the differences become obvious, at least as far as i am concerned.

 

I see. My experience is different, but, well that doesn't get us anywhere  It's kind OT anyway, I guess

[Tenebrae]

I see. My experience is different, but, well that doesn't get us anywhere  It's kind OT anyway, I guess

True enough, but we seem to mostly agree on the main point of the thread,that being:

 

As for Theadas, I agree that as of now there has been no conformation as to ethnicity being overly different between Orlais and Ferelden, but you have to remember that game developers and story tellers have a tendency of keeping things such as this vague, it gives them wiggle room for when they decide that its of value to the story being told.

 

Bioware may choose to keep glossing over would be ethnic difference in favor of focusing on the cultural aspect or they my confirm a real ethnic difference between Orlais and Ferelden, that however remains to be seen

[Tenebrae]

Edit:double post...

Modifié par Tenebrae, 03 juillet 2014 - 03:20 .

[Han Shot First]

Since Ferelden is very loosely based on Britain it may be the red hair. Britain has one of the highest percentages of red hair in the world. While red hair isn't exclusive to Britain the high percentage of it can be considered a British trait. So maybe the same is true of Ferelden.

 

Also the Orlesians might have a high percentage of people with black hair, if the games are any judge. Marjolaine, Duke Prosper, Stroud, the Baroness from Awakenings, Hubert, Riordan, and Liselle all had black hair. Of those who don't have black hair, brown hair was a lot more common than blonde or red. Maybe the Orlesians are more dark-haired than the people of Ferelden.

[guardian_titan]

In all honesty, with how global people are today, the physical differences there are between cultures will be gone eventually as we all blend together.  There's also the fact that you can't really say anyone today is a pure blood native of their country.  Families immigrate over time even if villages are remote.  Otherwise inbreeding results and villages die off.  I know my family is largely English, Irish, and Scottish although I found out recently my family has Welsh, French, and German lines as well.  I found out one line of my family started in Germany around the 1000s and immigrated to France before moving to the United States around the 1600s.  This is true for millions of families.  People often move between countries eventually spreading their bloodlines to their new country.  You really want something confusing, look at India.  They have people that resemble all three racial groups (caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid) so they're even harder to peg a feature for.

 

While there are subtle differences that can be seen when comparing photos of people from two countries, realistically, you aren't going to notice.  You can't tell someone from France apart from someone from England or Germany at a glance unless they start talking.  Even then, the person could be faking an accent.  A Chinese from a Spaniard is far more obvious just due to the eyes and nose.  Same with an African compared to someone from Japan.

 

Features can really mean anything.  Orlais and Ferelden being next to each other on the map means the two are very similar in looks due to intermarrying in the years before the previous war.  Those that intermarried on the border then had kids that spread into their respective countries thus spreading the features from the other country into their current one.  Features can mean anything from how a person looks to how a person talks or carries themselves.  Perhaps it was in reference to how Leliana stood.  Perhaps it was in reference to how she dressed.  Perhaps it was in reference to how she styled her hair.  Perhaps it was even in reference to how she strung the words together (unrelated to accent).  The line could have also be a mistake by the author thinking the two peoples were more different than they would realistically be.  In all honesty, look at a Frenchman next to a German.  Chances are you won't be able to tell them apart unless one's wearing a beret and the other lederhosen.  

 

I wouldn't look much into it.  It's probably a mistake.  They happen.  Even if it wasn't, I very much doubt they'd put much emphasis into it going forward.

[Tenebrae]

In all honesty, with how global people are today, the physical differences there are between cultures will be gone eventually as we all blend together.  There's also the fact that you can't really say anyone today is a pure blood native of their country.  Families immigrate over time even if villages are remote.  Otherwise inbreeding results and villages die off.  I know my family is largely English, Irish, and Scottish although I found out recently my family has Welsh, French, and German lines as well.  I found out one line of my family started in Germany around the 1000s and immigrated to France before moving to the United States around the 1600s.  This is true for millions of families.  People often move between countries eventually spreading their bloodlines to their new country.  You really want something confusing, look at India.  They have people that resemble all three racial groups (caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid) so they're even harder to peg a feature for.

 

While there are subtle differences that can be seen when comparing photos of people from two countries, realistically, you aren't going to notice.  You can't tell someone from France apart from someone from England or Germany at a glance unless they start talking.  Even then, the person could be faking an accent.  A Chinese from a Spaniard is far more obvious just due to the eyes and nose.  Same with an African compared to someone from Japan.

 

Features can really mean anything.  Orlais and Ferelden being next to each other on the map means the two are very similar in looks due to intermarrying in the years before the previous war.  Those that intermarried on the border then had kids that spread into their respective countries thus spreading the features from the other country into their current one.  Features can mean anything from how a person looks to how a person talks or carries themselves.  Perhaps it was in reference to how Leliana stood.  Perhaps it was in reference to how she dressed.  Perhaps it was in reference to how she styled her hair.  Perhaps it was even in reference to how she strung the words together (unrelated to accent).  The line could have also be a mistake by the author thinking the two peoples were more different than they would realistically be.  In all honesty, look at a Frenchman next to a German.  Chances are you won't be able to tell them apart unless one's wearing a beret and the other lederhosen.  

 

I wouldn't look much into it.  It's probably a mistake.  They happen.  Even if it wasn't, I very much doubt they'd put much emphasis into it going forward.

 

Eventually yes, if interbreeding between ethnicities counties the differences would be very hard to detect and even it today takes a keen eye to notice, but seeing as theadas is hardly a 21th globalized monstrosity then that point is moot as far as the difference in features be they facial or otherwise.

 

And yes it could be an honest mistake or like i said it could mean a shift in focus, either way it shouldn’t effect the overall experience the game provides.

[tmp7704]

What is it about Lelianna that immediately makes Celene think "Ferelden".

Suspect it's nothing and it's probably less about Leliana, and more about Celene. You know, the kind of expectations people tend to hold, how the british are horse-faced redheads, the germans are square-jawed blondes and the French sport Dorian-like mustaches. Even though 9 times out of 10 these people couldn't tell actual british person from the French or german one.

[Kreator_Wrex]

However, I don't ever recall an Orlesian with red hair so I suppose that could be a feature of native Fereldens not found elsewhere.   Yet her hair had already been mentioned and it seemed to imply her features as a whole.

 

Really? Because from what I've seen, it's not really uncommon for people of Orlesian descent to have red hair. I mean off the top of my head: Aveline Vallen, Dulci de Launcet, Emile de Launcet, Isolde, Guillaume de Launcet, Ghyslain de Carrac, Gascard du Puis, and Varian Ilithis. There's no shortage of red-haired Orlesians and this is actually quite accurate in the real world as well since it's not uncommon for people from northern France to have red or blonde hair.

 

Do Ferelden's generally have fairer skin, different bone structure, larger or different coloured eyes?   What is it about Lelianna that immediately makes Celene think "Ferelden".

 

It's probably the blue eyes for me. There seem to be more red head Orlesians than blue-eyed Orlesians.

[Maria Caliban]

People from Orlais are typically of the Ciriane tribe while most Fereldens you'd encounter are descendants of the Clayne with some Avvar.

They come from different ethnic groups. We haven't been told what the differences are between them and the games haven't depicted it.

[Tenebrae]

Well if that is the case then that would explain a difference to some extent in features facial or otherwise, would you be able to link a source for conformation?

[Han Shot First]

People from Orlais are typically of the Ciriane tribe while most Fereldens you'd encounter are descendants of the Clayne with some Avvar.

They come from different ethnic groups. We haven't been told what the differences are between them and the games haven't depicted it.

 

This.

 

The Orlesians are descended from the Ciriane and Inghirsh peoples, while the Ferelden are descended from Alamarri peoples like the Clayne, with perhaps some Avvar admixture, or Chasind in the southern regions. (Many of the people of Lothering had darker hair and complections, like the Chasind)

 

They are descended from different groups of people, so there being some physical differences between them makes sense.

[Tenebrae]

Loghain made the same statement about Leliana. Must be something to her. "You're painted to look Ferelden, but scratch the surface, and you're Orlesian."

 

 

Yes but that can also refer to a case a cultural assimilation, the "painted to look Ferelden" could be used figuratively to account for the fact that she claims to be originally from  Ferelden but has chosen to embrace Orlesian culture.

 

What the OP found was a sentence discussing features and i assume he was trying to assess whether or not it was referring to literal features (eye, hair color or facial features) or figurative features (such as a certain behavior).