125 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyeredzi]

Nature is weird, yet not, at the same time.

[Red Panda]

It's been a while, but I must answer.

There is only one thing indicating Maker's existence - Andraste's ashes. Something made them holy and gave The Guardian immortality. It can be anything - sure - but she believed in Maker. So does The Guardian.

 

The rest - is the same as with any religion anywhere.

 

Just because part of the story is true does not necessitate it being entirely true. Nor is being holy a requirement of immortality as blood magic can very much assist in the task of being immortal, and it is unknown whether or not blood magic is good or not definitely, though it is perceived as a great evil.

 

If the Maker exists, he's a lazy, fat slob. Probably a stoner too. Who else would sit around like this?

 

Perhaps, but that brings us back to the argued infinite goodness of the Maker in that by doing nothing and allowing evil to exist, good may be created from it.

 

There are pseudo random number generators that are random only to a mostly for programming sufficient extent but they are deemed pseudo for a reason. There are completely random number generators using physical processes to create truly random values to the extent of,our knowledge. 

 

No there was no cause for it to happen it simply were infinite random occurrences during a time time only existed for the duration of said random occurrences.

 

We cannot proof anything with definite knowledge, most of the things we know are simply proven for now by not being disproven and being able to explain things.

 

If we cannot prove anything with definite knowledge, then we cannot be certain if something is random. Therefore it stands to sit on the edge of the knife much like this debate, in that randomness may not even exist in the real world. On Thedas, one might even be able to agrue determinism with the events that occur in it. Just because we think of it as random does not make it so. I can no more think my car goes faster just because I painted it red. This of course, brings up another question. How does beleif directly affect the world on Thedas? It surely does affect the Fade in that it is shaped by the dreams, virtues, vices, and ideas of mortals.

 

Going back to what you said, were we to follow your line of reasoning, I could indeed claim that Goanadongladonosipargofon, the great spider-elephant does indeed exist since it has not been disproven.

 

I confess I'm not reading that wall of text.

 

I don't know if he exists or not. I'd prefer to think he exists, but I acknowledge we don't have any complete proof--and Gaider ain't talkin'.

 

I think one of our strongest arguments is the one about Andraste's Ashes (Oghren's comment is total nonsense). Even then, though, you could claim something like, Andraste was a powerful mage, she bound a demon to herself somehow, demon got hold of Eamon through the Fade somehow, and grabbing the ashes somehow neutralizes the demon.

 

Or something else that wasn't pulled out of the bum ten seconds ago. You get the idea. There's always a possibility to refute something.

 

That's the main issue right there. The presence of holy artifacts does not prove much of anything. It's a good point, and the reason why I chose to base my entire argument on pure reasoning.

 

To be honest, I'd prefer to never have any confirmation of the existance or non-existance of the Maker. It's something that's left up to the player to decide for themselves.

It brings up that theme of belief, not just for the players, but for companions and NPCs as well. When the Warden and their companions come to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, we see how belief has shaped each of them. Someone like Leliana will view the urn of the Maker's power while Morrigan will see it as probably just the work of some spirits. Their perception of the urn is shaped by their belief or lack thereof.

So far, belief in the Maker has been portrayed in a fairly balanced way so that both positions hold a good deal of merit and I'd like to see this trend continue.

 

I would prefer they never actually come out and say it as well, as it gives us a reason to debate the Maker. So I agree. it's an interesting thing you brought up how the Maker impacts the world and shapes the characters. That definite idea is a staple of the series, one I, like you, would like to see continue. Thank you.

[Burricho]

I think you're reading to much into something called level design. The levels were guided due to budget restrictions. 

[Eveangaline]

There is only one thing indicating Maker's existence - Andraste's ashes. Something made them holy and gave The Guardian immortality. It can be anything - sure - but she believed in Maker. So does The Guardian.

The rest - is the same as with any religion anywhere.

I you bring Oghren he mentions the mountain is basically a massive bed of lyrium. We've seen weirder results of magic (talking trees) and since the fade is effected by the thoughts and beliefs if people if there's a huge amount of lyrium in a place people are faithful about, weird stuff happening isn't unexpected

[Schreckstoff]

It's been a while, but I must answer.

If we cannot prove anything with definite knowledge, then we cannot be certain if something is random. Therefore it stands to sit on the edge of the knife much like this debate, in that randomness may not even exist in the real world. On Thedas, one might even be able to agrue determinism with the events that occur in it. Just because we think of it as random does not make it so. I can no more think my car goes faster just because I painted it red. This of course, brings up another question. How does beleif directly affect the world on Thedas? It surely does affect the Fade in that it is shaped by the dreams, virtues, vices, and ideas of mortals.

Going back to what you said, were we to follow your line of reasoning, I could indeed claim that Goanadongladonosipargofon, the great spider-elephant does indeed exist since it has not been disproven.

You certainly can make the claim and you likely can't even be disproven but it'd be a baseless claim and as such would not hold any merit.

While we can't prove anything with absolute certainty we can to the extent of our knowledge. Everything beyond that is pointless to argue about as it could be anything.

[mikeymoonshine]

"The universe began to exist, and as such, has a cause"

 

I never found Kalam all that convincing to be honest. How do you know it has a cause?  Cause and effect seems to work a certain way within our universe but we have no idea how it works outside of our universe. It's also not established how it works within the DA universe. 

 

The cause could be virtually anything and we don't even know if the universe actually did begin to exist. Maybe it always existed. 

 

Unless you are saying the maker is the Devs? There is some evidence for that after all 

[mikeymoonshine]

The reason why arguments like these are made is because the religious beliefs usually go something like this. "the world is full of evil and everyone in it is born with evil and does evil things", "god is all good and all powerful" ,"god created the universe". 

 

These statements do not logically fit. A god that is all good and all powerful cannot create or allow evil to exist and still e both of those things. 

 

"unless the Maker’s goodness were such to bring good out of evil"

 

This would make no difference, the evil still exists/existed and god still created it. He cannot be all good and all powerful. All being the important word. He could be all good and quite powerful or mostly good and all powerful but not both. 

 

So if a god is defined as both and evil exists then he or she cannot exist. 

 

Oh and an all powerful god does not need to create evil in order to create good so he is putting people through a state of evil when he does not even need to. 

[Vizard355]

The writers have said that the existence of the maker will always be ambiguous. It won't be confirmed or denied.

[Amirit]

I you bring Oghren he mentions the mountain is basically a massive bed of lyrium. We've seen weirder results of magic (talking trees) and since the fade is effected by the thoughts and beliefs if people if there's a huge amount of lyrium in a place people are faithful about, weird stuff happening isn't unexpected

 

And Deep Roads are full of lyrium as well, yet, dwarves are not immortal.

 

All we know is 1. Andraste existed, 2) Her ashes are holy, 3) there is an immortal creature (formal human) that guards the ashes. In addition to immortality The Guardian can see the past and the future of anyone who approaches him and can summon "ash wraths" to protect ashes. The guardian sure that he got commands to do things he does from Maker himself. 

 

I suppose any old god could make such things. All I am saying is - "Andraste's phenomenon" (ashes and The Guardian) is the only real miracle existing to this day that linked to Maker and can be used as a proof of his existence.

[9TailsFox]

Does Thedas exist though? Tamriel and all of it's denizens are pretty convinced of their existence, but it is all dream of a comatose god trying to understand itself. 

There is only one response to your post.

[9TailsFox]

And Deep Roads are full of lyrium as well, yet, dwarves are not immortal.

 

All we know is 1. Andraste existed, 2) Her ashes are holy, 3) there is an immortal creature (formal human) that guards the ashes. In addition to immortality The Guardian can see the past and the future of anyone who approaches him and can summon "ash wraths" to protect ashes. The guardian sure that he got commands to do things he does from Maker himself. 

 

I suppose any old god could make such things. All I am saying is - "Andraste's phenomenon" (ashes and The Guardian) is the only real miracle existing to this day that linked to Maker and can be used as a proof of his existence.

Ashes is as good evidence for maker, as Zathrian is proof elf's was immortal once. Death and life is such meaningless terms then magic is involved. Corypheus so powerful he can most likely immortal, and if you kill him he just jump to nearest body, but my speculation it must be taint involved darkspawn/grey warden, and i think anders can't be possessed by Corypheus, three is the crowd.

1. Andraste existed. we have only words of some spirits/demons in cave. 3) this immortal creature can be just spirit we have evidence spirits can lost memories and purpose of existence (Cole)  2)Her ashes are holy filed with so magic power they can heal, if we had dreamer we probably could heal Eamon from distance.

Mike Laidlow in one of the videos about setting of Dragon age mentioned what Maker is what, just god people believe in. This si not his exact words and I am sorry if I puling them from this mouth. It was more like, then we make setting we wanted maker to be something ambiguous.

[Amirit]

Ashes is as good evidence for maker, as Zathrian is proof elf's was immortal once. Death and life is such meaningless terms then magic is involved. Corypheus so powerful he can most likely immortal, and if you kill him he just jump to nearest body, but my speculation it must be taint involved darkspawn/grey warden, and i think anders can't be possessed by Corypheus, three is the crowd.

1. Andraste existed. we have only words of some spirits/demons in cave. 3) this immortal creature can be just spirit we have evidence spirits can lost memories and purpose of existence (Cole)  2)Her ashes are holy filed with so magic power they can heal, if we had dreamer we probably could heal Eamon from distance.

Mike Laidlow in one of the videos about setting of Dragon age mentioned what Maker is what, just god people believe in. This si not his exact words and I am sorry if I puling them from this mouth. It was more like, then we make setting we wanted maker to be something ambiguous.

 

In case of Zathrian is was openly told\shone that his immortality has nothing to do with elves immortality but with the spell\curse. So, example is not really fitting.

 

Existence of Andraste is proved by historical documents. Her "holiness" and the "fact" of being Maker's bride - this is something we are supposed to take from spirits in the Tample, yes, but she did exist.

 

Good point about Cole. Though, Cole is more close to Justis in it - a spirit\demon lost in the real world. They do not remember anything about themselves and life of the humans they used as hosts they remember exactly as that - life of used humans. While The Guardian remembers his own past as human, not the live of possessed body. Plus the ability to see through the lives of others - past and future. 

Again, these are not evidence of the Maker as a real MAKER but as some unusual holy magic.

 

Btw, no, dreamer would not be able to cure Arl Eamon. Arl was dying from poison, not magic, not demons. Ashes cure physical illnesses and no other healing magic available for humans (remember, Circle mages did try to cure him, and all other available healing was tested) can have the same effect. Hell, ashes can cure death itself (beheaded Leliana saved by The Guardian).

And while we are on it - Corypheus is not a good example either. His magic was classical one BEFORE he entered the Golden City. Corypheus is an example of someone physically entered Fade. Nothing more.

 

 

Again and again - The Guardian and the ashes is an anomaly like nothing else in Thedas. And they linked to Maker. I can imagine some old god or any other super powerful creature (more powerful, then Flemeth, for example) who made Andraste believe in Maker and filled her ashes with magic. But whoever it was - it existed and it was extremely powerful. 

[9TailsFox]

In case of Zathrian is was openly told\shone that his immortality has nothing to do with elves immortality but with the spell\curse. So, example is not really fitting.

 

Existence of Andraste is proved by historical documents. Her "holiness" and the "fact" of being Maker's bride - this is something we are supposed to take from spirits in the Tample, yes, but she did exist.

 

Good point about Cole. Though, Cole is more close to Justis in it - a spirit\demon lost in the real world. They do not remember anything about themselves and life of the humans they used as hosts they remember exactly as that - life of used humans. While The Guardian remembers his own past as human, not the live of possessed body. Plus the ability to see through the lives of others - past and future. 

Again, these are not evidence of the Maker as a real MAKER but as some unusual holy magic.

 

Btw, no, dreamer would not be able to cure Arl Eamon. Arl was dying from poison, not magic, not demons. Ashes cure physical illnesses and no other healing magic available for humans (remember, Circle mages did try to cure him, and all other available healing was tested) can have the same effect. Hell, ashes can cure death itself (beheaded Leliana saved by The Guardian).

And while we are on it - Corypheus is not a good example either. His magic was classical one BEFORE he entered the Golden City. Corypheus is an example of someone physically entered Fade. Nothing more.

 

 

Again and again - The Guardian and the ashes is an anomaly like nothing else in Thedas. And they linked to Maker. I can imagine some old god or any other super powerful creature (more powerful, then Flemeth, for example) who made Andraste believe in Maker and filled her ashes with magic. But whoever it was - it existed and it was extremely powerful. 

Zathrian yes we was explained powerful magic. I have no doubt Andraste is "real" historic figure.

Ashes, Cave and Gurdian. Again. If you fail answer question illusions show true form demon. Guardian remember his past life, Cole remember his past life to. Gurdian have ability to see into peoples minds, Cole have ability to become Invisibly and delete his existence from people minds entirely. Gurdian and all illusions in cave nothing more when spirits, how do we know we not in the Fade at all? Because it is not blur?

And Oghren explained ashes healing prophets room is full of lyrium(raw magic). Or it can be ashes of some special creature.

[Amirit]

If you fail answer question illusions show true form demon.

 

 

Well, THAT I would not be so sure about. Game mechanic is a game mechanic - the number of models is limited. Ash wraths The Guardian can summon also look like a typical demon. 

 

Guardian remember his past life, Cole remember his past life to.

 

 

Not in the same way. Cole remembers his meeting with the real human Cole, while Guardian remembers himself, there is no separation, no doubts about who he is. 

 

Gurdian have ability to see into peoples minds, Cole have ability to become Invisibly and delete his existence from people minds entirely.

 

 

Again, very different things. Guardian can see past and FUTURE - it's not mind reading. And he does not affect minds of those he see. While Cole really influences minds of others and can be repelled by litany.

 

how do we know we not in the Fade at all? Because it is not blur?

 

 

In the game - yes, we have an indicator. Plus, we can bring something from material from there (ashes). But the question is more in line with "the whole world is just an illusion". 

 

And Oghren explained ashes healing prophets room is full of lyrium(raw magic).

 

 

Aside from the fact that Oghren knows nothing of magic (or anything else beside drinking), there are plenty of raw lyrium in the world. Yet, only ashes can heal and The guardian was given immortality by someone way above ordinary power figure. 

Again - there is nothing in Thedas that works the same way. It is something different.

 

And - no, ashes can not be from "some special creature". Brother Genetivy tracked ashes down by historical documents leading from the moment Andraste was burned to relocation of the Urn. In addition we have the whole cult made of descendants of those who carried ashes. There WERE ashes and for sure - Andraste's. Who was behind the force giving the ashes power and immortality to the guardian - we do not know. But it looks like that force wanted to be called The Maker. At least it did not correct andrasteans.

[Red Panda]

I apologize for necroing first and foremost, but I had lost this thread so long ago, and there is so much content I have missed and hasn't been discussed with a view on both sides. As such, I will once more answer that and provide respectful discussion on the matter, contributing to the thread's goals as a result as per the only reason to engage in this discussion, other than limiting repeat threads. I will attempt to engage discussion to the best of my current ability so as to engage other posters in a thoughtful and respectful discussion.

 

 

"The universe began to exist, and as such, has a cause"

 

I never found Kalam all that convincing to be honest. How do you know it has a cause?  Cause and effect seems to work a certain way within our universe but we have no idea how it works outside of our universe. It's also not established how it works within the DA universe. 

 

The cause could be virtually anything and we don't even know if the universe actually did begin to exist. Maybe it always existed. 

 

Unless you are saying the maker is the Devs? There is some evidence for that after all 

 

Being that it is possible that the Devs are indeed tha Maker, I cannot rule out that possibility. So if the developers were the Maker, then the Maker would indeed exist. As I am not attempting to directly describe or talk about what the Maker definitely is to our perceptions, then it would seem that there is a Maker potentially from all of the possible causes available. As for cause and effect, it seems to work the same way in the games. ...Cause of blight -> Blight begins ->  Blight causes surface conflict...   As Thedas has a history, a series of events, it would appear that it works in a way similar to how cause and effect works for us, considering the nature of those that wrote and created the franchise. I would reason that since the franchise started, the universe started, and by that premise it had a cause.

 

I think you're reading to much into something called level design. The levels were guided due to budget restrictions. 

 

Possibly, but I'm rolling with it anyway considering it's our only visual perception of Thedas. It's also possible that there was intelligent design involved with the creation of the in-game perception. If there was intelligent design involved with it, then it strongly hints at the existence of a Maker.

 

The reason why arguments like these are made is because the religious beliefs usually go something like this. "the world is full of evil and everyone in it is born with evil and does evil things", "god is all good and all powerful" ,"god created the universe". 

 

These statements do not logically fit. A god that is all good and all powerful cannot create or allow evil to exist and still e both of those things. 

 

"unless the Maker’s goodness were such to bring good out of evil"

 

This would make no difference, the evil still exists/existed and god still created it. He cannot be all good and all powerful. All being the important word. He could be all good and quite powerful or mostly good and all powerful but not both. 

 

So if a god is defined as both and evil exists then he or she cannot exist. 

 

Oh and an all powerful god does not need to create evil in order to create good so he is putting people through a state of evil when he does not even need to. 

 

You're right to a considerable extent, but if we redefine evil as impotent compared to an all powerful and all good Maker it fits only in that case. Whatever the Maker does is good because the Maker made the universe. Therefore the Maker is good. If good is perfect, then the Maker is perfect. If the Maker is perfect, then the Maker is all powerful. In accord with the idea of Divine Command, the statement fits perfectly, though you're absolutely right about it not fitting very well in terms of the world we live in. I am talking about the Maker, which is not the same as a real world type of deity by virtue of the universe the Maker is associated with.

 

The writers have said that the existence of the maker will always be ambiguous. It won't be confirmed or denied.

 

This is why we have the liberty to discuss it. Therefore, we will speculate, discuss, and think about it. It is not set in stone.

[cronshaw]

you can't say you are trying to prove in-game that the Maker exists and then use DA's status as a game to prove Thedas exists.

you are mixing your universes

[mikeymoonshine]

Being that it is possible that the Devs are indeed tha Maker, I cannot rule out that possibility. So if the developers were the Maker, then the Maker would indeed exist. As I am not attempting to directly describe or talk about what the Maker definitely is to our perceptions, then it would seem that there is a Maker potentially from all of the possible causes available. 

 

Well the devs are not the maker of the Andrastian religion and they do not exist within the DA universe. You could call them the maker but I don't see the point of this debate if that is what you are saying. 

 

 

 

As for cause and effect, it seems to work the same way in the games. ...Cause of blight -> Blight begins ->  Blight causes surface conflict...   

 

This is a rather simplistic description of a natural law. "Seems to" isn't really good enough to declare that a maker exists, my comment was more about how the whole Kalam argument wasn't really that compelling to me and that is part of the reason why. It makes assumptions about A (whatever existed before our universe, if there was a before) based on what we know about B (the apparent state of our universe today). We don't know if the state of A is anything like the state of B and we don't even fully understand the state of B. 

 

It also doesn't imply any kind of deity. If we call the deity C and we assume that C did not have a cause then we are assuming that things can exist and not have a cause. All this does is weaken the idea that A and B are likely to be similar in how cause and effect works. 

 

 

 

 I would reason that since the franchise started, the universe started, and by that premise it had a cause.

 

 But the maker exists within the franchise (either as a reality or as a concept), if you are saying the maker does not and is in fact the devs then this changes the discussion entirely. 

 

 

 

you're right to a considerable extent, but if we redefine evil as impotent compared to an all powerful and all good Maker it fits only in that case. Whatever the Maker does is good because the Maker made the universe. Therefore the Maker is good. If good is perfect, then the Maker is perfect. If the Maker is perfect, then the Maker is all powerful. In accord with the idea of Divine Command, the statement fits perfectly, though you're absolutely right about it not fitting very well in terms of the world we live in. I am talking about the Maker, which is not the same as a real world type of deity by virtue of the universe the Maker is associated with.

 

Well again my comment was more about real world arguments and why they are made. 

 

I have heard similar arguments made though by religious people. The idea that good is what god wants and evil is what god does not want. God still allows evil to exist whatever it means or does not mean and so he cannot be all good if evil is in any way a contrast of good. 

 

As for the justifications for redefining good and evil, well they are usually not very compelling. Like the real world the game world has a view of good and evil and it's pretty much the same one as here. (peoples opinions on actions taken by others).

 

In the end it comes down to this. There is no scenario in the real world or in Thedas where a creator can be all powerful and not be the creator of evil. There is also nothing stopping an all powerful creator from creating a world without evil or removing evil from the world. Whatever you define evil as it is ultimately there because the creator wants it to be and for no other reason.  

 

If the maker is the devs then their reason for creating evil would be to make the world more interesting, I imagine that would make many in Thedas see them as evil if they knew that or at least to not see them as all good.

[rocsage]

pretty sure OP is trolling.

[HK-90210]

*snip*

 

[Killdren88]

Really now? Prove it...Andraste licked lampposts in winter.....Now tell me. Where is your Maker now? Call him. Have him call his wrath down upon me. You cannot for he dose not exist.

[Revelat0]

Really now? Prove it...Andraste licked lampposts in winter.....Now tell me. Where is your Maker now? Call him. Have him call his wrath down upon me. You cannot for he dose not exist.

Maybe because the Maker is is a woman therefore "he" does not exist, and the elder one is just trolling. 

[Eelectrica]

Andraste invented the maker in order to encourage the slaves to rebel against the Tevinter imperium. Go with what works right?

They didn't think they could win on there own, but if some untouchable devine superpower is on there side then they felt like they had a chance.

They broke free of their shackles with a combination of brute force, weight if numbers, Tevinter arrogance and complacency that they couldn't be defeated. Not some mythical super hero.

[Revelat0]

All those arguments are just philosophy 101 arguments for the existence of God, slightly repurposed to Thedas...

 

Well instead of using those lets use something more... empirical and relative to the history of the game. Perhaps allegory, the Elven god Elgar'nan overthrew his father the "Sun", is it coincidence that the Chantry uses a sun as its holy symbol or very clever writing?

[DiscoGhost]

i made a pizza one time and morrigan showed up in the cheese. that obviously means god baby incoming.