As mentioned above, the scene with the Leviathan turd would've been better if the thing switched to characters that have died throughout the trilogy while talking about what ending you want
I think this would make more sense for the Catalyst encounter than Leviathan. With Leviathan, it seemed to me that it was projecting the familiar characters it projected itself upon as Shepard pursued it to put a familiar face but not to engage Shepard emotionally.
The kid probably would have scurried away screaming from Shepard thinking she was another husk. I saw Aliens.
I still think the kid, the dreams, and all of that crap up through the Catalyst scene, was an attempt at an indoctrination plot that they couldn't figure out how to make the game mechanics work properly, and they ran out of time to do so. Also to do it well would have made the game huge, so they abandoned it.
I thought the Leviathan encounter was done so much better in this respect. I wish that the Catalyst was done similarly, but oh well.
Yep. Levi conversation is my favourite among Sovereign/Harby/Rannoch/Catalyst. His voice is the best.
I like the idea that Shepard is being indoctrinated - that his mind is being pulled into the Reaper collective, and that his subconscious is in communication with the Catalyst. The dreams are both Shepard and the Catalyst in communication, and the child running is part of Shepard's guilt and the Catalyst trying to escape.
Legion says that the Reapers couldn't control its platform because it was "too complex". Maybe the Reapers have encountered something similar with Shepard's mind?
I like to think that there can always be a level of manipulation - whether it be a slight code change with the geth, or progressive neural degeneration with organics.
So for Legion - sure he isn't utterly turned to the Reapers' side, but he does gain a more 'organic' 'awe' of the Reapers that wouldn't have existed otherwise. And instead of the Heretic Geth that 'gladly' served the Reapers, or the upgraded Geth slaves, Legion instead was only encouraged to aim for an 'improvement' of the Geth that he didn't previously believe in.
So yeah in that sense Legion is indoctrinated. But also not. Depends what you mean by indoc. Some take it as big 'I', others can take it in lower 'i' (indoctrinated = to be taught).*
So this is what I think can happen to Shepard. He (at least the Shepard we see) isn't turned into an unthinking slave. He isn't choosing to follow them either. He stands up and decides what kind of future he wants. Synthesis and Control may be various forms of compromise towards the Reapers, but there is never a sacrifice that would be too much. Synthesis isn't being happy to become Collectors. Control isn't being happy to be harvested. Destroy isn't killing all AI due to some irrational hatred of them. Not for the Shepard we see. (regardless of our RP standpoints)
But to me, I don't think that precludes his mind being under the influence of others since .. not even just London, but even the whole trilogy. Just without him being very aware of it. We know that indoctrinated subjects also experienced sensory changes..
One person's subjugation is another person's communication.
Aw, they're like a married couple already..
*Words and objects are tricky. Reapers... can be Old Machines... can be general advanced machine intelligences... can be singular names like 'Nazara'. A gun can be solid, real, and in your hands. It could also be virtual, familiar, but ultimately an expression of someone's memories or emotions (artistic design or cold simulation). It has been both in Mass Effect..
A Catalyst can be the Citadel (or it can be its home) can be an Intelligence can be a boy can be...
Points of view. Context. Perception.
Shepard can be...
Yeah, because everything kids say always makes perfect sense.
Bioware already has us covered there..btw.
0:25
Paragon - Kids are kinda cute.
Renegade - Kids do dumb things.
I still think the kid, the dreams, and all of that crap up through the Catalyst scene, was an attempt at an indoctrination plot that they couldn't figure out how to make the game mechanics work properly, and they ran out of time to do so. Also to do it well would have made the game huge, so they abandoned it.
It's conceivable. Note that the leaked outline has the dreams but no indoctrination plot, and the Catalyst scene hasn't been written yet. So the outline dates to after the indoctrination plot was junked but before they decided what was to replace it, perhaps.
We are on Earth, in Vancouver.
We see the Child, playing with a ship.
The area is grey, similar towers everywhere, with fire raining down.
When knocked back onto the floor, we hit a bench. In the background (this is confirmed by audio isolation) plays the dream music.
We see the Child killed by the Reaper Destroyer.
We leave on the Normandy.
We go to the Normandy.
We have a dream, where Shepard has armor and weapons.
He follows the Child, sees the bench, and is shocked by the Child burning.
He wakes up in his bed.
~~~
We are in Tuchanka.
The area is yellow, brown for the most part. Ruins.
We see a Reaper Destroyer. It is poisoning the atmosphere with a green toxin, appearing like a wispy beam.
We kill the Reaper Destroyer by baiting a giant Thresher Maw.
The sending out of the Cure or fake Cure turns the green into yellow.
We go to the Normandy.
We have a dream, where Shepard has only his armor.
He follows the Child in the darker forest, passes the bench, and is shocked by the Child burning.
He wakes up in a chair, with a datapad possibly still in his hand.
~~~
We are on Rannoch.
The area has a red hue, but also brown again. Ruins.
We see a Reaper Destroyer. It is controlling the Geth through upgrades. (The consensus illustrates records with a green circuitry, but the virus is more red)
The Reaper is inside some kind of hole. We see similar locations at the Prothian Mars ruins, and the multiplayer Firebase Rio.
We kill the Reaper Destroyer by assisting the Quarian Fleet in its targeting.
Legion/Geth VI attempts to send his own upgrades to the freed Geth through an interface that is a blue sphere with a more organic red core.
We go to the Normandy, possibly with our Love Interest.
We have a dream, where Shepard has only his armor.
He follows the Child in the darker forest for the shortest dream.
He sees another Shepard, this time without armor and weapons and only in casual wear.
This other Shepard embraces the Child, looks happy yet the image is also creepy. They burn in fire... but we don't get to see our Shepard's reaction.
He wakes up in bed, to the possible reassurance of his Normandy Love Interest.
~~~
We are on Earth, in London.
The area is very, very dark, but the beam in the distance provides a light blue that illuminates all around it. This time, the ruins are everywhere, and recent.
We see a Hades Cannon. We get to destroy it with a Cain.
We see a Reaper Destroyer. It is blocking our path to the beam, which we need to reach in order to enter the Citadel and activate the Crucible.
To defeat the Reaper Destroyer, we have to lead it towards us, and away from the.. disrupting signal of the beam. This way, we can actually still kill it with weaponry. We do so, with the covering fire of allied forces.
We enter the beam, or as the objective markers and EDI call it, the 'conduit'. (skipping TIM stuff here)
We enter a dreamlike area, while we hear from the child (and soundtrack) 'wake up'.
Shepard's armor is still there, but burned. Shepard still has a weapon, but it is a basic pistol.
He speaks with the Child, who is really the Catalyst (or to the Leviathans, an Intelligence). He doesn't embrace the child, but he also cannot directly shoot him and directly proceed.
~~~
We can pick red Destroy, shoot our gun towards an outstanding tube, face the explosion with our armor intact.
Or we can pick blue Control, keep our armor until it also disintegrates, lose our gun as we grasp for handles..
Or we can pick green(ish, we at least turn green) Synthesis, disintegrate our armor quickly, drop our gun as we run forward.
These options each may or may not be available, but the interfaces to use them will always exist. Only the paths may not be open. (You could say they are 'greyed out', in a way)
You can consider this only symbolism, and that's totally fine. At least in itself, ME3 works fine with that easy and possibly entirely true interpretation.
But man, you have to admit that when collected, this is pretty damn heavy handed symbolism, at least?
Child emotional manipulation.
Crucible macguffin.
Citadel distraction.
CAT6 sideshow, even.
Its like a color-by-numbers example of 'bad riting'.
As if its 'written' by someone who doesn't understand how humans work, and what they need in order to completely believe a story..
Care about the child! You people care about children, right? Squishy humans care about other squishy, innocent, cute kids?
"Sometimes I think this whole Citadel is a mistake."
And that sequence would have also sucked imo.
And that sequence would have also sucked imo.
So we got that minus the reaper controlled Shepard. My own theory that plan B was to indoctrinate the player. Hence "It is in your power to destroy us. You can destroy all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth," in the original ending.
"But the reapers will be destroyed?"
"Yes, but the peace won't last.... blah blah blah."
"There has to be another way."
"There is. You could control us."
Up until this point there was, IMO, nothing redeemable about the reapers. You mission was, "Dead reapers is how we end this." - Admiral Hackett. If it wasn't for tainting Destroy in the Original Ending with "including the Geth," what would have been the purpose of Control, or Synthesis? Remember, the conversation was high level and there was no explanation of what each ending actually did. Lots of speculation from everyone.
If you chose destroy and had enough EMS you survived.
If you take into account the leaked script there were 4 different beam runs only one was dreamy, getting hit by harbinger, Anderson was there before shep & getting up to a forest were you would see the guardian(the left overs are there on the floor)
+ when me3 came out shepard just accepted the reapers reasoning without question as Rana Thanoptis told us that indoctrinated subject does in me1.Anderson talks about moving walls the indoctrinated subject in me 2 talks about the same thing, shepard hear a growl when talking to the kid in mass effect redemption that was resisting indoctrination, the dreams are filled withe these things alien voices, whispers you cant understand, growls & oily shadows
bioware also stated in the same app that they needed 6 months to finish the ending but only got 3, also that eden prime was supposed to be the first of 3 catalyst mission eden prime Thessia The citadell
my speculation is that they had to change it when they realised that they didn't have the time to finish it & that synthesis was low ems, there is even rests on the floor from guardian garden. I also think synthesis was originally mass indoctrination low ems
Since ea bought them they had short development times thing me3 development time was 18 months & DA2 was less than 12 months
games like skyrim have 5 years wicther 2 was announced on September 18, 2009 came out 25 March 2011 original game was out 2007
leaked script: http://pastebin.com/PUDnpJK9
Bioware can make great games they just need the time to do so, i hope that DA3 got at least 4 years of development time DAO had 5-7 years of it before EA bought them/ we got an incomplete story that was messed up in the last sec
So we got that minus the reaper controlled Shepard. My own theory that plan B was to indoctrinate the player. Hence "It is in your power to destroy us. You can destroy all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth," in the original ending.
"But the reapers will be destroyed?"
"Yes, but the peace won't last.... blah blah blah."
"There has to be another way."
"There is. You could control us."
Up until this point there was, IMO, nothing redeemable about the reapers. You mission was, "Dead reapers is how we end this." - Admiral Hackett. If it wasn't for tainting Destroy in the Original Ending with "including the Geth," what would have been the purpose of Control, or Synthesis? Remember, the conversation was high level and there was no explanation of what each ending actually did. Lots of speculation from everyone.
If you chose destroy and had enough EMS you survived.
"Your mission was"
Control and Synthesis are not about your mission.
Pay attention to how Shepard behaves towards Hackett when Paragon, even if it is a micro difference compared to Renegade.
Renegade sticks completely with Hackett and is focused on the direct damage that can be done to the Reapers.
Paragon sometimes can be boiled down to 'I trust you and you should trust me', without any explicit mention of, you know, killing Reapers.
Does that (plus other stuff) mean Paragon truly loses? Eh, sort of.
I kinda see it as how they put the Paragon Lost anime. Vega in that story chose the intel over the people, for good reason... but... that intel wasn't exactly needed. Someone else got it, and someone else fought the Collectors.
I see Control/Synthesis as Shepard unnecessarily throwing his life away (more or less), but the benefits that could come from it (unlike core ITers, I do think there would be benefits) could help out in some ways.
Anyway, what I was trying to say is that Paragon narratively prepares you more for the Catalyst, even if it probably wasn't enough for many players. Renegade doesn't. But then again, Renegade is "Blah blah robot is talking to me, I shoot now."
EDIT: I don't think any of ME1-ME3 is suggesting that the Reapers are redeemable. I mean, there's some tangental stuff like EDI, but even the Catalyst conversation is done in an adversarial fashion (even if Shepard is dazed about it). Only top EMS plus maybe Extended Cut is anything close to friendly, and even then you can say enough stuff that your Shepard stands against the Reapers, even if weakly.
Control and Synthesis don't get a lot of rhetorical boosts. Control is really the 'I want to save AI and keep the galaxy more intact' option, and Synthesis is for that minority of utopia seekers, wishing to make the galaxy even better than it ever was. Maybe there could have been more content about this in the main games instead of more side activities and DLCs, but the content *was* there. We can see directly the good results of Reaper technology, when it isn't done to subjugate others.
I like to think of renegade as more "blah blah enemy is talking to me." If the Catalyst was just an organic alien overlord, I'd treat it the same way and kill it just the same.
Yes but Renegade never lets go of the synthetic part, in all 3 games. At most, you can use synthetic intelligences like Legion as a tool, but if you go full full Renegade, you possibly won't have Legion anyway.
Renegade Shepard doesn't really consider machines worth talking to like they're some authority on anything. "Stupid machine!" sticks around, since ME1.
And in some way, it is constantly correct. The machines keep reaching incorrect conclusions. The machines can be broken. The machines don't understand us. Things would be simpler without the machines.
So we're tested in each game how far we'll personally go, in a fictional safe setting, to accept machines, their utility, their intelligence, and even their rights to exist.
If we somehow trust that the Catalyst has been a guiding and controlling force above the Reapers, then killing all of the Reapers may just be tossing away trillions of years of data for nothing except freedom to mess up over and over again. Forgetting about IT here, this would suck, at least in some ways. But of course almost everyone would pick Destroy anyway, which is why they put Geth and EDI there too.
A lot of stuff was an info dump at the last moment but I personally think that was planned. Everything was so blatant in ME3 that I can't help but consider it deliberate and part of the story itself. Like I said, the emotional manipulation of a child, the grand macguffin of the Crucible, the sudden usefulness of integrating with the Citadel and opening its arms (wasn't that a bad thing in ME1? guess not anymore!).
Leviathan is also a Control boost. Some players think that Levi is lying and heck, that possibility always exists, but if we take it for its word (more or less), then learning that 'stupid organics' indirectly made the Reapers do what they're doing in the first place... then it does come down to a programming error. An organic issue.
I did a full renegade run with activating Legion, choosing the Geth over the Quarians and still picked destroy. I don't give a crap about blue and green. Red solves the problem. Destroy the reapers and you can have a future free from the threat of reapers. But then again I always pick destroy whether I play as a goody-two-shoe- or a ruthless b*t*h
I think Bioware wanted to reinforce the horror of the Reapers in the core of ME3 while also giving us mostly optional material that either distracts us from this horror, or helps us understand why its happening instead of seeing Reapers as, well, evul Reapahs.
It isn't enough to keep Shepard from fighting Reapers til the end choice, and resisting them every step of the way, but it is enough to get Shepard to decide that Destroy isn't the one to choose. Paragon focuses on stopping the Reapers, not killing them.
But I think that's fine. I know IT thinks otherwise, but I will take each layer of the story (if there even are layers) for what they are. Control isn't being controlled, it is finally assuming control. Synthesis isn't becoming a slave, it is the dream of no one being a slave. Destroy isn't dooming us to chaos, but freeing us from the cycle.
Even if there's other horrific, sneaky, scary elements to what is going on, I think I'll take Citadel DLCs constant cues and go "It's fine, I beat it, move on."... for now. Something 'Shepard' is getting out of that rubble, whether it is actually Commander Shepard or not.
Everything will change, but it'll be on our terms. I trust the script on that. I don't think Bioware is going 'everything will change, but on our terms, unless you picked 2 out of the 3 clear paths in front of you for the final choice'.
I did a full renegade run with activating Legion, choosing the Geth over the Quarians and still picked destroy. I don't give a crap about blue and green. Red solves the problem. Destroy the reapers and you can have a future free from the threat of reapers. But then again I always pick destroy whether I play as a goody-two-shoe- or a ruthless b*t*h
That's my position too. I'm just talking about this stuff because I don't find it hard at this point to realign myself to see the other side.
I think we're in for twists and turns in both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect franchises.
But yeah, I picked Destroy. Sure, one of the major reasons was because I thought it could clean up the problem for a long while, but another reason really was that I wanted my Shepard alive. Not to retire, but because I got the sense that others still needed him..
- The very first scene is the kid playing with the toy fighter.
- Shortly after, the same is in an air vent.
- Shortly after he (alone) climbs aboard a shuttle to be shot down by a Reaper.
- He appears multiple times in Shep’s dreams.
- Then at the very end.
What’s going on here?
(outer limits music)
In the BEGINNING -- is the Catalyst just a figment of Shep’s imagination or is he taking bodily form for some reason?
In every situation, Shep seems to deeply interested in this kid & has Shep's full attention.
If so, for what purpose? Is it a mirror of himself? How do all these appearances in the game tie to the ending?
Your thoughts?
Here ya go-
http://forum.bioware...ination-theory/
Enjoy!
Yes but Renegade never lets go of the synthetic part, in all 3 games. At most, you can use synthetic intelligences like Legion as a tool, but if you go full full Renegade, you possibly won't have Legion anyway.
Renegade Shepard doesn't really consider machines worth talking to like they're some authority on anything. "Stupid machine!" sticks around, since ME1.
And in some way, it is constantly correct. The machines keep reaching incorrect conclusions. The machines can be broken. The machines don't understand us. Things would be simpler without the machines.
So we're tested in each game how far we'll personally go, in a fictional safe setting, to accept machines, their utility, their intelligence, and even their rights to exist.
If we somehow trust that the Catalyst has been a guiding and controlling force above the Reapers, then killing all of the Reapers may just be tossing away trillions of years of data for nothing except freedom to mess up over and over again. Forgetting about IT here, this would suck, at least in some ways. But of course almost everyone would pick Destroy anyway, which is why they put Geth and EDI there too.
A lot of stuff was an info dump at the last moment but I personally think that was planned. Everything was so blatant in ME3 that I can't help but consider it deliberate and part of the story itself. Like I said, the emotional manipulation of a child, the grand macguffin of the Crucible, the sudden usefulness of integrating with the Citadel and opening its arms (wasn't that a bad thing in ME1? guess not anymore!).
Leviathan is also a Control boost. Some players think that Levi is lying and heck, that possibility always exists, but if we take it for its word (more or less), then learning that 'stupid organics' indirectly made the Reapers do what they're doing in the first place... then it does come down to a programming error. An organic issue.
I think I want to clarify where I diverge from IT (well, one of the ways I do).
IMO:
-When the Catalyst says "Wake up.", it no longer wants to 'keep you asleep' (so to speak). At least on high EMS. On low, its pretty much forced to address you anyway, and does so resentfully.
-I actually consider the Catalyst to be Sovereign, or at least pretty much him. Things come full circle, and dedicated enemy becomes possibly tenuous ally.
-While I think indoctrination is happening, it also isn't always as utterly blatantly evil as it seems. In the end, it is a form of synthetic connection. However, the Reapers chose to use it to force others to be their tools, as the Leviathans did, and they chose poorly. Shepard had to fight (whether he's in physical or virtual space, whatever) to be heard, respected, feared, and given the power to decide the fate of all. But even this is an illusion of control, and we'll open the next game with another (as in ME2) rude awakening about our situation.
-Much of the stuff shown to be evil in the trilogy, by the Reapers, while still just as morally repugnant and viscerally disgusting, has more purpose than we've been led to believe in the overt storytelling of the games so far (especially the main storylines).
-ME3 teases lots of events from the past, gaps in the present, and unknowns about the future, and I think the next game will tackle this. Exploration and discovery. This means revelations about supposed allies and supposed enemies, that might flip your opinion on them. (Just as ME2 often did for people about Cerberus)
I quote elsewhere on BSN, about another subject:
"I never quite understood what people have against necromancy so long as we're not talking about enslaving someone's soul. It's always better to sacrifice a horde of lifeless husk to soften up or defeat the enemy then your actual living troops in my opinion." -Link
The only missing piece for me is actual confirmation that when one is indoctrinated and/or huskified, they are actually uploaded into a Reaper consciousness safe and sound. That is, as long as you consider the transhuman idea of mind transfer to really be a thing that could work.
In this case, husks are gross and scary, but it is done for pure efficiency - psychologically and physically - for the fastest harvest (of souls) possible and the least deaths happening (that they can calculate/project). The actual 'people'/'organic code' are 'copied'/'transferred'/'preserved' in another realm of existence, possibly put on their own purgatorial journeys to become better people and eventually live in happiness. A big assumption, I know.
This makes Reapers still the enemy and villains, but 'just good enough' that I could hypothetically (though I'm still picking Destroy) understand making a choice that intends to keep the Reapers around - once I add in all the info about things like the Leviathans, believe stuff like the Metacon War, and so on. If all of this info leans on the Reapers' side (even if it still illustrates them to be evil about it all), then it might be said - or at least considered by the Catalyst - that the 'solution' of the Harvest Cycle is more efficient for saving more lives (and 'preserving' many of the rest), then it can at least illustrate the Reapers to be just strongly misguided and given the worst of parents (Leviathans), instead of totally evil. I mean, how many spared the Geth, even after the many millions they eliminated purely in concern that leaving Quarians alive would prolong the conflict?
So anyway, that's where I'm not so IT. IT is 'Reapers bad, they're lying about everything and you need to wake up and fight them' and I'm 'Reapers crappy, you don't need them to stay alive, but it might help because they're not outright lying and there's more story to come'.
In any case, the Reapers were bad at what they were trying to do, but they were also dealing with the scale of a galaxy. Its like giving a few farmers a task to keep a giant field of miles and miles and miles fertile and bearing crops. Of course they may try the quickest way possible that leaves fewest mistakes - even as it often degrades the soil and prevents the wild from returning. Doesn't help that they resent their job, consider it to last forever, and believe they're doing it for a good purpose so the collateral doesn't matter, etc.
TurianRebel212 --
Thank you VERY much for taking the time to acquire this and post it here for those of us who started playing ME3 recently. I watched the entire 2+ hours of it. In short, that's quite a bit of FANTASTIC research, analysis, and thought (including video editing -- which I'm into). One thing I learned too late in life is to assess someone's TIME, ENERGY, and THOUGHT into something. That speaks BIG to me.
I respect those who like the "bittersweet" ending (and tell us to "stop whining") -- but it looks like the MAJORITY of us mega-ditto the author's take on quote, "Abomination of an ending". Yes, some can all say this is a GAME and dismiss it....and go play the next game.
Not so fast. We're all different. Many of us have poured not only our $$$ into this, but countless hours, interest, and soul into this series. Bioware may flippantly be in it just for the bucks, but looks like it might backfire for them when they royally ppiiss off a majority of their customers (us).
The author suggests a strong BOYCOTT for treating us like dirt -- and more than just gripe, offers a pliable SOLUTION to save the series -- introducing the INDOCTRINATION theory. In another thread I suggested we expected some answers -- which (as expected) was countered with (more or less) "ahhh, stick it in your ear; you don't need any answers -- leave it a mystery". To each their own. There are games with puzzles (like Tomb Raider) and in contrast there are puzzle games (like the Myst series). ME is a little of both in that it has mostly action, story, and some light puzzles. Fine if there are some mysteries -- but not rewarded with a wet mop in our face for an ending. If ME4 wants to start fresh with new characters & new story -- at LEAST fix ME3's ending and go on.
Which gets back to the reason I created this thread -- looking for clues. Looks like others are seeing the same things ... so I guess I'm not going nuts. It was also pointed out in the movie that Shep was imagining things from the start (seeing the kid playing with the fighter jet). Slow indoctrination. Too many clues at the end to prove Shep was indoctrinated. Not real. Anderson & TIM are trying to break Shep's will to resist, then further, give him 3 choices (of which one is the only way to defeat the Reapers) ... and I'll choose that ending soon.
The last moments in this "fairyland" reminded me of Shep's encounter with Leviathan where that was a "fairyland" of dialogue there too.
I will stand with many of you out there and will NOT purchase ME4 until Bioware pulls us out of their toilet. I will be reading the ME4 forums (or the next ME game) to see if they have.
Thanks for your thoughts on this thread. They are appreciated.
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard. We return, and you will rise." -Cut Harbinger lines..
Ascendance.
ascendance - the state that exists when one person or group has power over another
See also: Dominance, Control.
The Reaper Destroyer,
Kills the Child who invades our dreams.
But if we kill the Reaper Destroyers,
We find another way. (Cure, Upgrade, Crucible - Test)
"Your mind perceives our world as something familiar."
Everything will change.
And maybe you found another way.
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