35 réponses à ce sujet

[Napoleonicus]

I was going through a new playthrough of the DA games (with all the DLCs this time!) and I stubled across a few lines of dialogue I didn't remember in one of the early conversations with Alistair:

 

"I was only present during one Harrowing. That was all I needed, too. I don’t know how anyone could get through that. The girl they tested… she had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist. And she couldn’t. We had to… end it quickly. I have to say I didn’t have much interest in becoming a templar after that."

 

Not easy to claim to moral high ground after soething like that... do you peeps think this was a common practice?

.

 

[Napoleonicus]

I was refering more to the idea of having a demon put in forcibly "to see if one could resist". Is the Harrowing is just a "routine" test to see if a mage is strong enough to contain a demon? Like a rite of passage, like the Grey warden joining? Otherwise it sounds more like a persecution. Killing someone because they failed to contain a demon you put in there in the first place seems... well stupid, really.  Surely I'm missing something, and I would like to understand

[Ajadea]

Have you ever played through the Mage origin? They do that to literally everyone who isn't made Tranquil. It's the opening quest line for the origin: hi, welcome to Thedas, you're cursed, fight a pride demon, and if you eff this up, you're dead. Good luck! Those are your options as a Circle mage: be made Tranquil, or have a demon stuffed in your head. And if you fail, you're an abomination and so the templars kill you. They assign one specific templar to deal the killing blow. Cullen had to do it and he didn't even know what an abomination looked like. Imagine if he was jumpier.

 

Being gone all night and brought back unconscious the next morning is 'the quickest, cleanest, Harrowing [Cullen] ever saw'. According to Senior Enchanter Torrin, most mages need a week to recuperate from it. This is a long, nasty, horrible, test. And the only other 'choice' is being an emotionless zombie for the rest of your life. Sometimes, they don't even give you that choice and go straight for zombification Tranquility.

[KaiserShep]

This is why I would probably take my chances being an apostate.

[dragonflight288]

Yes, all Circle mages do that. There's no insurance you can be trusted as a mage unless you prove you can resist demons. Otherwise you're useless to everyone around you.

 

From what I understand, other cultures often have similar tests (I think Chasinds have their own Harrowing). So it's not just a Templar/Circle thing.

 

The Dalish don't. According to World of Thedas, the Dalish as a culture shun all spirits of the Fade, from the ones Andrastians call benevolent to the demons as they see all spirits and demons as dangerous, not just demons. 

 

Merrill and Zathrian would be exceptions, but the Dalish are an example of a magical culture that shuns all demons and spirits entirely according to the lore. 

[Napoleonicus]

Have you ever played through the Mage origin? They do that to literally everyone who isn't made Tranquil. It's the opening quest line for the origin: hi, welcome to Thedas, you're cursed, fight a pride demon, and if you eff this up, you're dead. Good luck! Those are your options as a Circle mage: be made Tranquil, or have a demon stuffed in your head. And if you fail, you're an abomination and so the templars kill you. They assign one specific templar to deal the killing blow. Cullen had to do it and he didn't even know what an abomination looked like. Imagine if he was jumpier.

 

Being gone all night and brought back unconscious the next morning is 'the quickest, cleanest, Harrowing [Cullen] ever saw'. According to Senior Enchanter Torrin, most mages need a week to recuperate from it. This is a long, nasty, horrible, test. And the only other 'choice' is being an emotionless zombie for the rest of your life. Sometimes, they don't even give you that choice and go straight for zombification Tranquility.

 

Thanks! That was a fantastic explanation. I hadn't played a mage character since spellcasters never were my thing (Rogue archer) but now I might just have to try it. That puts things in better perspective, and only confirm my dislike of the order and of their Chantry handlers. If Anders had only asked my Hawke to set the charges, he would have.

[dragonflight288]

Thanks! That was a fantastic explanation. I hadn't played a mage character since spellcasters never were my thing (Rogue archer) but now I might just have to try it. That puts things in better perspective, and only confirm my dislike of the order and of their Chantry handlers. If Anders had only asked my Hawke to set the charges, he would have.

 

Cool. And the Harrowing isn't given to every mage either. Some are forced into tranquility because they are seen as too weak. Others volunteer because they fear the Harrowing as it is kept secret from all the apprentices, so all they know is that their friends and colleagues disappear and no one knows what happened, were they transferred to another Circle, or were they killed. All they know is that apprentices who fail their harrowing are never seen again. 

[Napoleonicus]

Is there a plot point where a mage Warden can become an apostate?

[dragonflight288]

Is there a plot point where a mage Warden can become an apostate?

 

No, but the Warden can be a maleficar. Not that hard, when three of the four options technically fall under the Chantry's definition. I say this because although Maleficarum is officially only blood mages, mages who aren't blood mages are often called maleficars as well because they practice a magic the Chantry controlled Circles don't authorize. Wynne and Alistair both call Morrigan a maleficar not because she's a blood mage but because she's a shapeshifter. 

[Ajadea]

I believe all Grey Warden mages are technically apostates, due to no longer operating under the auspices of the Chantry. And if you question Duncan during the Mage Origin in his room after you drop him off, he flat-out tells you that some Grey Wardens use blood magic (though he's never seen it personally) and the Chantry's being unnecessarily restrictive about the whole thing. If you listen to the rumormongering apprentices, 'Wendell' made it through but was barfing for a week after (the dialogue's a bit vague, but I think that makes the most sense), 'Humbert' volunteered for Tranquility, and an unknown apprentice disappeared last week. As for the other Harrowing-age apprentices, Jowan's going to be made Tranquil against his will, and you just passed your Harrowing with flying colors.

 

If you take this as approximately representative of the norm (instead of the other option, which is simply presenting the possible options) then that's only 2 out of 5 apprentices making it through. Out of the rest, 1 chooses Tranquility, 1 has Tranquility forced upon him, and 1 dies.

 

It's AMAZING what you can find if you dig around in the dialogue options.

 

Also, apparently there were only 7 mages at Ostagar: Wynne, Uldred, 'the Grumpy One ' who's also a senior enchanter, Circle Mage in the Tower of Ishal, and those three in the Magi Encampment doing their super-secret magic ritual. What you see is what you get, in this case. That's why Duncan shows up - to make Greagoir give up more mages. That you end up in a pile of crap and end up being conscripted is just coincidence. Those above are 'most of the senior mages', and Greagoir considers it a sufficient contribution. The Circle isn't huge.

[sylvanaerie]

Even Anders wouldn't complain about the Harrowing. He warns of demons all the time. He values Circle education. He still admits it's one of the only places people can learn.

 

Magic is not free. It's not D&D. You don't just pew pew Fireballs in Thedas without some cost or risk involved. All mages have close ties to spirits and demons of the Fade. The only purpose of the Harrowing is to test a mage's Willpower. To maintain their composure and independence against outside influences. An independent mind - or strong mental resistance if you will - is highly valued in any mage. Even Morrigan, an apostate herself, is fiercely independent. I doubt Flemeth tested her like the Circle did, but she did raise her to have strong Will and not be a retard. That's all the Circle is trying to do with their apprentices.

 

Pretty much this is the viewpoint I reached on my Surana.  She hated the Circle and being stuck there, but cherished Irving's teachings, trying to hold to them in the face of some pretty nasty business after the story events (in my fanfic).  Even if a mage lacks magical ability, they still have to have a strong will (you see at least one tutor instilling that in his student in ambient dialogue of the origin story).

[caradoc2000]

I hadn't played a mage character since spellcasters never were my thing (Rogue archer) but now I might just have to try it.

You should at least play the origin, it begins with your character's Harrowing.

[Napoleonicus]

You should at least play the origin, it begins with your character's Harrowing.

 

I certainly plan to now

[KC_Prototype]

Mages in the circle are trained and taught up till about a certain age and then brought to the Harrowing Chambers and go through their Harrowing. They have to resist and defeat the demon or else they are put down. Once that mage has passed their harrowing, they move from an apprentice mage to an official circle mage and moved up to the nicer mage quarters. You have to go through the Harrowing or else be mage traquil which is a helluva a lot worse.

[dragonflight288]

Mages in the circle are trained and taught up till about a certain age and then brought to the Harrowing Chambers and go through their Harrowing. They have to resist and defeat the demon or else they are put down. Once that mage has passed their harrowing, they move from an apprentice mage to an official circle mage and moved up to the nicer mage quarters. You have to go through the Harrowing or else be mage traquil which is a helluva a lot worse.

 

Or die, or have tranquility forced on you. 

[caradoc2000]

or else be mage traquil which is a helluva a lot worse.

Is it worse? Every tranquil you talk to seems to be quite content with their situation.

[dragonflight288]

Is it worse? Every tranquil you talk to seems to be quite content with their situation.

 

They are content because they literally cannot be anything else. They have no emotions at all. They feel no joy, no sorrow, no love, no fear, no anything. They simply are.

 

And in canon, we have two tranquil who were cured, Karl in DA2 and Pharamond in Asunder. And both begged for death before being returned to tranquility. 

 

Since we have 2 out of 2, that's not a very wide pool to be sure, but there are no other examples of mages who were tranquil and then cured who were content with it. None. 

[caradoc2000]

It took this long to take the bait answer?

 

Edit: actually it wasn't a troll. If they are happy who are we to disagree?

[Lavaeolus]

Well, they're not exactly happy. I mean, no emotions, right? They're content, a very fine word which, when you get right down to it, means "I have no real feelings towards this positively or negatively". The Tranquil are, essentially, walking/talking tables. I'd basically equate it to death, though if those two examples (Karl and Pharomond) are truly indicative, it could be a whole lot worse. Either way, it's not exactly something you'd be glad to have forced on you.

 

Especially since, you know, you would no longer experience gladness.