133 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Who would clean the latrines in such an 'alliance'?
 
There's various problems, of course. The elves wouldn't want to subordinate themselves to another mostly human group or serve as the canon fodder so others can be safer. The mages wouldn't want to subordinate themselves to other mundanes (who are as likely to fear them as any human- if not more). But with such non-identical groups, any partnership as equals would easily feel not very equal at all in practice.

I don't think the elves are in a position to be picky. You find an ally, any ally, and hope that you won't be screwed too badly when it's all over. Standard deal for revolutionaries

[Ap0state]

It's somewhat amusing to see people who simultaneously argue that mages must be locked up because they are so dangerous and even one of them can destroy an entire village in a fit of pique (though not trained), but then claim that an entire army of them has no chance in a battle.

[Inprea]

It depends in part how story lines up with game play. In Origins for example the spirit tree could be used to create an undead guardian. Was that one guardian simply a game mechanic or could a single mage that had mastered the spirit school command a small army of undead? Then there is blood magic of course which isn't just about killing people but controlling them. There are also mercenaries which the mages have hired in the past. The mages have a few options for bolstering their numbers some of them more ethical then others. That or they could use all three methods. Use blood magic to control a wealthy noble or merchant, use that person's money to higher mercenaries and then raise undead servants to further swell the ranks.

 

The thing about being few in number is you have fewer mouths to feed and greater mobility plus for the number of mages they bring tremendous fire power. A group of mages could find a target, hit it with a lot of fire and lightning then retreat before the opposition can regroup. Plus magic provides great potential for traps and blood magic provides for sleeper agents. It's a different system but when I'm playing Requiem I love using dominate to mind control people into trying to murder their allies at some pre set time period. It erodes trust, inspires fear and can reveal the enemy location. Say, "In three days while your allies sleep you're to kill as many of them as you can."

 

For Organization it depends on what the apostates were up to. The mage underground has been active for a while after all. Then they're groups like the mage's collective in origins. They may not like all the attention but they could also realize there is no waiting this storm out.

 

I wouldn't say templars are easy to replace or in great condition either though now that they're not being supplied by the chantry. Lyrium is one of the most expensive metals there is. Before even with chantry support templars would buy more lyrium from the black market to feed their addiction. Now they don't have the supply from the chantry or the money. How are they affording the lyrium they don't just need but crave? Then you have to find people that are willing to slowly poison themselves with lyrium and train them up if you want to replace your numbers.

 

Mages are also less likely to lose one of their numbers to injury or sickness then templars as they have healers amongst their ranks as well as those that have studied plants. Personally I believe the mages need to retreat to a region where sickness is a severe killer. I've often wondered if a mage could protect themselves from mosquito bite with a weak shield while the little pest spread sickness to anyone without such protection.

[myahele]

Also, a circle trained mage should be able to conceal their powers and nobody would know.

Isoldes father was a mage, Hawkes were able to live as apostates for a while. Then there's also Solace.

Additionally, mages are all quite intelligent and should be just as knowledgeable as a noble. For the most part I can see mages living in isolated camps and defending themselves if provoked.

I can see elves in just open revolts and using guerilla warfare. Kinda like vietnam and the middle east. City elves will lose over and ovrer again, but eventually the nobles will get fed up enough to just leave them alone.

[TK514]

As a way to move troops effectively, the Eluvian network is actually pretty lacking.  Sure, they can move large distances quickly, but they are completely at the mercy of randomly scattered exit points.  In the thousands of years since the network was set up, the mirrors have been moved, lost, buried, destroyed, etc in such a way that you really can't count on one being near where you actually want to go.  And, now that the secret is out, you can count on Orlesian forces destroying or disabling every one they come across, making the network less and less effective over time.

 

As a convenient transport network for goods, or leisurely travel, however, or as quick transport to the central hub, they'd be great.

 

It's somewhat amusing to see people who simultaneously argue that mages must be locked up because they are so dangerous and even one of them can destroy an entire village in a fit of pique (though not trained), but then claim that an entire army of them has no chance in a battle.

 

That has less to do with random 'mage on their own' malice and more to do with accidents by the untrained and what a demon wearing a mage suit can accomplish.

 

Speaking of random mages, I seem to recall a codex entry or conversation in DA:O that suggests that Mages with enough power/control/ability to be effective battle mages are fairly rare, and that most Mages in any given tower can cast the odd spell, but not call down the wrath of the heavens on command.  At least not without blood magic/demonic intervention.  I suspect that will be retconned, if I'm even remembering it correctly, because otherwise an already tiny group has had their effective combatants reduced to an absurdly small force.  There's also the issue of physical conditioning.  Circle Mages in particular aren't exactly encouraged to exercise, especially not for long trips under harsh conditions.  They also aren't trained in any non-magical martial skills.  No weapons practice, no tactical or strategic applications courses.  The ones that are useful are basically weapons, transported to and from battle by others and stored when not in use.  Your author's pets like Fiona are a rarity among rarities.

 

Again, though, I expect most of this to be completely handwaved or retconned, because otherwise no one would consider rebel circle mages more than an annoyance unless they turn to demonic means.  Now, if we were talking about Tevinter, that's a whole different barrel of explosives.  Their entire society for thousands of years has been geared towards the sole purpose of churning out living apocalypses without the need for demonic assistance.  People have good reason to be worried about Tevinter mages.  Without a race of technologically advanced half-giants/half-dragons/half-whatever keeping them busy, the Imperium could have continued to be a serious threat to the rest of Thedas.

[Ap0state]

As a way to move troops effectively, the Eluvian network is actually pretty lacking.  Sure, they can move large distances quickly, but they are completely at the mercy of randomly scattered exit points.  In the thousands of years since the network was set up, the mirrors have been moved, lost, buried, destroyed, etc in such a way that you really can't count on one being near where you actually want to go.  And, now that the secret is out, you can count on Orlesian forces destroying or disabling every one they come across, making the network less and less effective over time.

 

As a convenient transport network for goods, or leisurely travel, however, or as quick transport to the central hub, they'd be great.

 

 

That has less to do with random 'mage on their own' malice and more to do with accidents by the untrained and what a demon wearing a mage suit can accomplish.

 

Speaking of random mages, I seem to recall a codex entry or conversation in DA:O that suggests that Mages with enough power/control/ability to be effective battle mages are fairly rare, and that most Mages in any given tower can cast the odd spell, but not call down the wrath of the heavens on command.  At least not without blood magic/demonic intervention.  I suspect that will be retconned, if I'm even remembering it correctly, because otherwise an already tiny group has had their effective combatants reduced to an absurdly small force.  There's also the issue of physical conditioning.  Circle Mages in particular aren't exactly encouraged to exercise, especially not for long trips under harsh conditions.  They also aren't trained in any non-magical martial skills.  No weapons practice, no tactical or strategic applications courses.  The ones that are useful are basically weapons, transported to and from battle by others and stored when not in use.  Your author's pets like Fiona are a rarity among rarities.

 

Again, though, I expect most of this to be completely handwaved or retconned, because otherwise no one would consider rebel circle mages more than an annoyance unless they turn to demonic means.  Now, if we were talking about Tevinter, that's a whole different barrel of explosives.  Their entire society for thousands of years has been geared towards the sole purpose of churning out living apocalypses without the need for demonic assistance.  People have good reason to be worried about Tevinter mages.  Without a race of technologically advanced half-giants/half-dragons/half-whatever keeping them busy, the Imperium could have continued to be a serious threat to the rest of Thedas.

What makes you think they won't summon demons and use blood magic? They are battling for their freedom and it's hardly likely the fact their opponents disapprove is going to stop them.

[TK514]

What makes you think they won't summon demons and use blood magic? They are battling for their freedom and it's hardly likely the fact their opponents disapprove is going to stop them.

 

I expect in desperation they will.  In fact, I think we will see it quite often.  But to be honest, while it's a great move for people who figure they're going to die anyway so they might as well screw up the world as much as possible before they go, it's a terrible move for anyone who actually has plans on living any length of time.  Aside from the rank and file demons being generally as trustworthy and controllable as any other wild animal, freedom loses some of its value when you're a meatsuit for another entity.

[StrangeStrategy]

Arcane and guerilla warfare. With an Eluvian network to boot. If this was the real world, they'd win easily. Or be impossible to defeat.

 

I'm sure it'll be more complicated than that though. Just to make the story interesting, at the very least. But their tools alone are superior.

 

Exactly. As we saw in Masked Empire, the City Elves may rebel but they'll be crushed.

But together with the Dalish (Who actually know how to fight) they could really pose a direct threat. But even better; Guerilla warfare. If Briala opened up the Eluvian network to the Dalish on the condition that they ally with the City Elves... It'd be impossible to defeat, short of destroying every last Eluvian I suppose...

[LobselVith8]

Calling the Elves an army is being very generous. They are at best insurgents.

 

At best, I'd call them freedom fighters looking to liberate their people from a tyrannical system of servitude, institutionalized racism, and systematic purges.

[CapivaRasgor]

I expect in desperation they will.  In fact, I think we will see it quite often.  But to be honest, while it's a great move for people who figure they're going to die anyway so they might as well screw up the world as much as possible before they go, it's a terrible move for anyone who actually has plans on living any length of time.  Aside from the rank and file demons being generally as trustworthy and controllable as any other wild animal, freedom loses some of its value when you're a meatsuit for another entity.

 

And that is one of the reasons I think that the war might sour even more the opinion of mundanes regarding mages. A lot of them didn't experience magic at all in the whole of their lives, they were just told of how dangerous it is and how they should fear mages, and then they have their first contact with mages.... and these mages will probably confirm every fear the mundanes have. It's kinda of a funny cicle really, in order to fight to be free the mages sometimes resort to methods that confirm why people believe they should be locked up.

[TK514]

And that is one of the reasons I think that the war might sour even more the opinion of mundanes regarding mages. A lot of them didn't experience magic at all in the whole of their lives, they were just told of how dangerous it is and how they should fear mages, and then they have their first contact with mages.... and these mages will probably confirm every fear the mundanes have. It's kinda of a funny cicle really, in order to fight to be free the mages sometimes resort to methods that confirm why people believe they should be locked up.

 

My perception, from what we've seen, is that both Mages and Templars have fallen into a 'the ends justify the means' line of thinking, so neither one is going to be winning any PR awards this year.

[TheJediSaint]

If Asunder and The Masked Empire are anything to go by, poorly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

At best, I'd call them freedom fighters looking to liberate their people from a tyrannical system of servitude, institutionalized racism, and systematic purges.

So in short... Insurgents...

[LobselVith8]

So in short... Insurgents...

 

I mean freedom fighters.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think the elves are in a position to be picky. You find an ally, any ally, and hope that you won't be screwed too badly when it's all over. Standard deal for revolutionaries

 

And most revolutionaries fail horribly. If the elves cared about their position, they wouldn't have rebelled in the first place.

 

Or, alternatively, the elves care so much about their position that they did rebel, and are unlikely to place themselves under another because... well, they don't even share a common enemy. It'd be more about picking a fight with someone else.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's somewhat amusing to see people who simultaneously argue that mages must be locked up because they are so dangerous and even one of them can destroy an entire village in a fit of pique (though not trained), but then claim that an entire army of them has no chance in a battle.

 

Who are you referring to?

 

I mean, I've repeatedly mentioned that I view the dangers of mages as analogous to a disease outbreak or a chemical spill. Outbreaks are dangerous and can kill a lot of people, but most people wouldn't consider fighting an outbreak a war.

 

Not everything that kills you makes a good weapon of war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I mean freedom fighters.

I don't see a meaningful distinction between the two.

[LobselVith8]

I don't see a meaningful distinction between the two.

 

I see different connotations to the words.

[Karlone123]

The mages will throw fireballs, and the elves will throw rocks.

[General TSAR]

Badly, and then they'll get stomped when the Chevaliers and Templars rediscover their testicles.

[Master Shiori]

It's somewhat amusing to see people who simultaneously argue that mages must be locked up because they are so dangerous and even one of them can destroy an entire village in a fit of pique (though not trained), but then claim that an entire army of them has no chance in a battle.

Getting a large number of mages together doesn't suddenly make them an army. Most of them have no battlefield experience or knowledge of basic military tactics. It's an extremely well (magicaly) armed mob, but a mob non the less.

 

Keep in mind that even those mages who did take part in recent conflicts (like the 5th Blight) did so under the command of people who understood war and how to best use mages. They were acting like support; throwing fireballs and casting spells behind solid lines of regular troops. The trick to their use is to make sure they are free to focus on using their magic without having to worry that somebody will charge in to chop their heads off.

 

This time, they don't have such protection available nor an experienced commander to lead them.

[Xerxes52]

The elves will probably have the advantage with overwhelming numbers, town guards and small groups of infantry would have little chance. Without military-level discipline and equipment to back up those numbers however, they'll break and scatter after the first heavy cavalry charge or under a barrage of arrows. After that you let the heavy cavalry run down the survivors, sending in infantry with short swords to root them out of their dwellings and finish them off. Or, if the alienage is secluded enough from the rest of the city, you could seal it off and light it on fire.

The mages will probably massacre mundane civilians and soldiers through sheer firepower, but if the Templars get their act together (Use Silence you fools! You've got 50% magic resistance! Take that fireball on the chin and keep fighting! If they group up, show 'em what Smite can do!) they should be able to cancel out most of the mages' magic and tough out the rest. Once the surviving mages are backed into a corner, they'll turn to blood magic and be subsequently possessed. Bust out the Litany of Adralla, neutralize their spells, and put 'em to the sword.


And that was a lot more violent sounding than I initially expected.

[KC_Prototype]

Elves will use guerrilla warfare and mages will use the spells and rain hell on Templars.