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How will the mages and city elves wage war?


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#51
Ap0state

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Most battlefield and military tactics are made by people who have nothing but their own physical bodies, physical handheld weapons and physical projectile weapons to work with, and have to finagle how to use these to their advantage against other people with the same types of weapons at their disposal?

 

In Thedas, most mages have enough firepower destroy an entire village in one go. To pretty much rain fireballs, ice storms, death clouds, physically and mentally weakening spells, etc. at large groups of people from a distance, before they even get close enough to touch them. And they have so many diverse spells with different abilities; elemental blasts, defensive

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did we actually play the same game? Because I played as a mage in DA:O and by less than halfway through the game, I no longer needed party members or meat shields to defend me. (In fact, one of the most common praises/complaints I heard about DA:O mages was how much sooner and more easily you could solo through the game than the other classes.) I could cast powerful AoE and crowd control spells and wipe out, or at least severely weaken huge crowds of enemies before they got close enough to do damage. And for those few who still survived the onslaught, I cast health/mana drain force fields around myself, so they became a lot weaker and a LOT easier to pick off in hand-to-hand combat. And that's before I learned blood magic and the glorious Blood Wound...

 

 

 

 

 

 

And before we have, 'game-play and lore is separate' the lore does emphasize how powerful mages are (apparently that's the justification for imprisoning them, but it suddenly ceases to exist when they fight back) and nowadays most of the novels incorporate in-game spells and abilities. I just don't see anything standing up to a mage army which is well fortified and defending the high-ground and that isn't even going into blood-wounds, paralysing haemhorrages and abomination summoning, all of which will happen before the mages lose.



#52
EmperorSahlertz

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Who the hell said that mages aren't dangerous in a battle? I don't recall anyone saying that. What has been said is that they won't be very effective in a WAR, since they are too few in number and lack experience.



#53
wright1978

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City Elves as guerilla insurgents will obviously attack both Celene and Gaspard depending on who is winning in order to drag out war and hopefully finish off the wounded victor. Still a very longshot but the more Celene/Gaspard and general populace punish innocent city elves the more will join the insurrgency.

 

 Due to civil war it is likely templars and mages will be slugging out own private battle in the middle. Civilians will get raided for supplies and try and disappear for length of time brutal skirmishes occur. Can't see a long-term future though, as large mobile bands that lack discipline or any kind of support will eventually be doomed unless a settlement is reached.


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#54
LobselVith8

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Who the hell said that mages aren't dangerous in a battle? I don't recall anyone saying that. What has been said is that they won't be very effective in a WAR, since they are too few in number and lack experience.

 

Considering Circle mages have contributed in the previous Blights, the war against the Dales, and the New Exalted Marches, I don't see why the independent mages wouldn't be effective in the Mage-Templar War. There are likely hundreds of them from Anoral's Reach, they have training in the use of their powers, and based on the letter from the Hinterlands, it's clear that they are holding their own against the templars. There wouldn't be much of a war if the Circle mages were too inept to hold their own, which clearly isn't the case.



#55
CapivaRasgor

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Considering Circle mages have contributed in the previous Blights, the war against the Dales, and the New Exalted Marches, I don't see why the independent mages wouldn't be effective in the Mage-Templar War. There are likely hundreds of them from Anoral's Reach, they have training in the use of their powers, and based on the letter from the Hinterlands, it's clear that they are holding their own against the templars. There wouldn't be much of a war if the Circle mages were too inept to hold their own, which clearly isn't the case.

 

Yeah, but how will the mages from Andoral's Reach manage if their leadership is killed (or presumed killed) at the summit? Personally I believe that the fraternities will disperse and take different routes.

 

Plus there is the fact that a lot of mages may not be combat effective, due to either specialising in non combat useful areas of magic, not being very capable spellcasters (Codex quote:"Even some mages are not spared, for in mages as in all humans, there exists a spectrum—on one end, the very powerful, on the other, those that can barely light a candle." - Codex entry: An Honest Answer Regarding Apostates). Not to mention that mages aren't submitted to the long years of psychological conditioning to prepare them for combat like the soldier of a professional army is and while their training is very strict and promotes discipline, they are still likely to panic if they start losing the upper hand in a fight.

 

And like @EmperorSahlertz said, there is no doubt that mages can prove themselves extremely dangerous combatants, the point proposed here is how effective they will be at a WAR, which involves much more than battles.


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#56
LobselVith8

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Yeah, but how will the mages from Andoral's Reach manage if their leadership is killed (or presumed killed) at the summit? Personally I believe that the fraternities will disperse and take different routes.

 

Plus there is the fact that a lot of mages may not be combat effective, due to either specialising in non combat useful areas of magic, not being very capable spellcasters (Codex quote:"Even some mages are not spared, for in mages as in all humans, there exists a spectrum—on one end, the very powerful, on the other, those that can barely light a candle." - Codex entry: An Honest Answer Regarding Apostates). Not to mention that mages aren't submitted to the long years of psychological conditioning to prepare them for combat like the soldier of a professional army is and while their training is very strict and promotes discipline, they are still likely to panic if they start losing the upper hand in a fight.

 

And like @EmperorSahlertz said, there is no doubt that mages can prove themselves extremely dangerous combatants, the point proposed here is how effective they will be at a WAR, which involves much more than battles.

 

The mages and the templars were fighting before the peace summit at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Fiona, a former Grey Warden, was presumably leading them, since she was the Grand Enchanter. The fact that, even after the cataclysm, the war between the mages and the templars is still raging on would suggest that the mages aren't inept at handling themselves in this war. The Inquisitor is the one needed to turn the tide of this war in favor of one over the other.

 

And we know about guerilla fighters in the our own history who have dealt with harsh conditions, limited supplies, and facing trained soldiers with more resources and superior numbers, but the guerilla forces still managed to hold their own, and even win.


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#57
Reaverwind

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Considering Circle mages have contributed in the previous Blights, the war against the Dales, and the New Exalted Marches, I don't see why the independent mages wouldn't be effective in the Mage-Templar War. There are likely hundreds of them from Anoral's Reach, they have training in the use of their powers, and based on the letter from the Hinterlands, it's clear that they are holding their own against the templars. There wouldn't be much of a war if the Circle mages were too inept to hold their own, which clearly isn't the case.

 

Mages have always been part of a larger military group in any given war. They've never had to handle the logistics of one on their own. They may have training in the use of their powers, but few have training in acting as part of a military unit. And they will find it far more difficult to sustain heavy losses.

 

Edit: The thing working in the mages' favor are the templars themselves (ironically). They have martial training, but most amount to little more than organised rabble.



#58
Inprea

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Yeah, but how will the mages from Andoral's Reach manage if their leadership is killed (or presumed killed) at the summit? Personally I believe that the fraternities will disperse and take different routes.

 

Plus there is the fact that a lot of mages may not be combat effective, due to either specialising in non combat useful areas of magic, not being very capable spellcasters (Codex quote:"Even some mages are not spared, for in mages as in all humans, there exists a spectrum—on one end, the very powerful, on the other, those that can barely light a candle." - Codex entry: An Honest Answer Regarding Apostates). Not to mention that mages aren't submitted to the long years of psychological conditioning to prepare them for combat like the soldier of a professional army is and while their training is very strict and promotes discipline, they are still likely to panic if they start losing the upper hand in a fight.

 

And like @EmperorSahlertz said, there is no doubt that mages can prove themselves extremely dangerous combatants, the point proposed here is how effective they will be at a WAR, which involves much more than battles.

 

Just think of how easily Uldred and his blood mages kicked the templars out of the tower. Well drove them to the bottom levels. Then there is Dunkan's little story about how he witnessed a blood mage turn templars against one another and would have killed them if a loan templar hadn't managed to sneak up on them. That mage had no one to watch his back. From what we've seen in the games it seems like the templars can only take down a mage if they're very weak or were obeying chantry laws. Other then that it's going to cost a lot of templar lives. I still can't help but think how Jowan knocked a group of templars including the knight commander and ran right out the front door.

 

If they can gain the support of mages that have been living outside the circle, such as the mage's collective, they can gain further lessons.

 

For mental fortitude speak to Irving about the difficulties of surviving within the circle. Those mages that have managed to do so seem quite capable of enduring.

 

Plus if you want strategy you can either higher a mercenary or depending on the damage to the subjects mind use blood magic. It's a bit different but I can't help but think of Erfworld. Wanda is a powerful necromancer who found herself behind enemy lines. Now she's a powerful mage but not such a good military leader. Fortunately her servants had managed to capture one of the enemy generals. She had him executed and raised him as an undead servant. There is her military strategy. A blood mage might be able to do something similar. From the way Avernous talked about influencing the minds of certain nobles a blood mage can change their way of thinking.



#59
Master Shiori

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Most battlefield and military tactics are made by people who have nothing but their own physical bodies, physical handheld weapons and physical projectile weapons to work with, and have to finagle how to use these to their advantage against other people with the same types of weapons at their disposal?
 
In Thedas, most mages have enough firepower destroy an entire village in one go. To pretty much rain fireballs, ice storms, death clouds, physically and mentally weakening spells, etc. at large groups of people from a distance, before they even get close enough to touch them. And they have so many diverse spells with different abilities; elemental blasts, defensive


And against common soldiers that would be enough. But you're not facing common soldiers, are you? You facing templars who are trained to counter your powers and kill you.

Going by your description, you'd think mages were untouchable juggernaughts. Take a look at the Circle in Kirkwall and see how well those mages with all their power and no fighting experience or knowledge of tactics fared.  
 
 

And if there were more than seven or ten mages, they could have thrown enough firepower to wiped out the opposing army before they got close enough to chop their heads off. Individual mages have enough strength to flatten a village, remember? Imagine a whole village-full of mages, all attacking and focusing their strengths together. Or, you know, using the defensive and healing spells on themselves and each other.


Sure they can. And all of that can be neutralized. And getting mages to focus their strangth together takes pracitce and experience. Battles are chaotic afairs where unexpected situations can and often do occur. A trained combatant can quickly adopt and respond to the new situation. A mage that spend his whole life locked in a tower, reading books and practicing magic that may or may not have a practical application on the battlefield cannot.
 

Did we actually play the same game? Because I played as a mage in DA:O and by less than halfway through the game, I no longer needed party members or meat shields to defend me. (In fact, one of the most common praises/complaints I heard about DA:O mages was how much sooner and more easily you could solo through the game than the other classes.) I could cast powerful AoE and crowd control spells and wipe out, or at least severely weaken huge crowds of enemies before they got close enough to do damage. And for those few who still survived the onslaught, I cast health/mana drain force fields around myself, so they became a lot weaker and a LOT easier to pick off in hand-to-hand combat. And that's before I learned blood magic and the glorious Blood Wound...


Do I seriously need to explain to you the difference between a mage protagonist and an average npc mage in a computer game?

Ok,here we go.

As a protagonist you have all the advantages of your class and none of the disadvatages, because the game wants you to feel powerful without having to worry about the consequences that come with using that power. You can cast spells without worrying about becoming exausted, drink lyrium potions like there's no tomorrow and never become addicted to the stuff, enter the Fade as many times as you please and never run the risk of becoming possessed. Hell, you can use blood magic without anyone blinking, let alone calling you out on that.

Effectively, the game made you a superman among ordinary humans, and expect everyone else to be the same. Except they aren't, because then you'd be just a normal mage and where's the fun in that?
 
 

And of course, it'll ALWAYS be like that. They won't learn, adapt to their new situation, use their environment to their advantage to make up for not having the Big, Strong, Clever, Experienced, DESPERATELY NEEDED army general to protect them. Like guilla warfare: attacking from a distance, from hiding, from elevated or fortified positions. And the suppor they have now, between these two games, is the amount of support they will ALWAYS have. They can NEVER gain new allies. It's completely impossible for an experienced commander to join their side, or even find an experienced commander among them, etc.
 
Nope, they'll always be inexperienced, unsupported children that are incapable of learning, adapting, or gaining new allies, and will just sit around sucking their thumbs like two-year-olds waiting for the Big Strong Soldiers to run up and lob their heads off.


Oh, they'll learn. Every has to learn if they wish to survive. But each lesson will be played for in blood and how much of that can you lose before you're hopelessly outnumbered?

And who's going to ally with them? They're a minority in a world that hates and fears them, and that fear won't simply vanish after a mage victory. Let's say they do manage to learn, adapt and ultimately defeat the templars? What then? Do you imagine them peacefully settling down among common people, to be greeted with open arms? Oh, I have no doubt they'll try, but eventually bad things will happen. Things that a poorly educated, superstitious peasant cannot understand. Animals may get sick, crops may fail and people will look to someone to blame. And that mage living nearby will be a prime target. Angry mob will attack him, most likely get fireballed to death and the authorities will be alerted. And we'll have another war on our hands, except this time it'll be mages vs the rest of society.


And before anyone gets the idea that I wish to see mages slaughtered by templars or anyone else; I don't. However, I'm not so naive to think that a rebellion will solve their problems or make the world more accepting. I also realize that templars are needed and having them removed, or letting them slaughter every mage they can find, isn't going to help matters either. The only plausible long term solution to this mess is for both sides to stop fighting and reach an agreement that can serve as basis for building a more just and honest system in the future.


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#60
Feybrad

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Just think of how easily Uldred and his blood mages kicked the templars out of the tower. Well drove them to the bottom levels. Then there is Dunkan's little story about how he witnessed a blood mage turn templars against one another and would have killed them if a loan templar hadn't managed to sneak up on them. That mage had no one to watch his back. From what we've seen in the games it seems like the templars can only take down a mage if they're very weak or were obeying chantry laws. Other then that it's going to cost a lot of templar lives. I still can't help but think how Jowan knocked a group of templars including the knight commander and ran right out the front door.

 

If they can gain the support of mages that have been living outside the circle, such as the mage's collective, they can gain further lessons.

 

For mental fortitude speak to Irving about the difficulties of surviving within the circle. Those mages that have managed to do so seem quite capable of enduring.

 

Plus if you want strategy you can either higher a mercenary or depending on the damage to the subjects mind use blood magic. It's a bit different but I can't help but think of Erfworld. Wanda is a powerful necromancer who found herself behind enemy lines. Now she's a powerful mage but not such a good military leader. Fortunately her servants had managed to capture one of the enemy generals. She had him executed and raised him as an undead servant. There is her military strategy. A blood mage might be able to do something similar. From the way Avernous talked about influencing the minds of certain nobles a blood mage can change their way of thinking.

 

Just a little Thing: Uldred was likely only able to take over the tower because greagoir was not willing to apply the Right of Annulment on his own (thus slaughtering every Mage in the Circle). Templars have to obey Chantry Laws just like Mages.

 

But it is true, from what I've seen, while one Templar seems superior or equal to the usual Circle Mage, he is vastly inferior against a Blood Mage. However, not every Mage will be willing to cross the Line to blood Magic (thus crossing the Line to "irredeemably evil") just as not every Templar will be willing to take red lyrium (which seems to me like the exact Counterpart to blood Magic - vastly empowering the Templar, but at the same Time crossing the Line to "irredeemably evil").



#61
LobselVith8

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Just a little Thing: Uldred was likely only able to take over the tower because greagoir was not willing to apply the Right of Annulment on his own (thus slaughtering every Mage in the Circle). Templars have to obey Chantry Laws just like Mages.

 

Greagoir mentions that they were unprepared for that many abominations (he says they were prepared for one or two), and that he's also waiting on reinforcements from Denerim.


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#62
Feybrad

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Greagoir mentions that they were unprepared for that many abominations (he says they were prepared for one or two), and that he's also waiting on reinforcements from Denerim.

 

Hm. You may have a Point there. Also, he had no red Lyrium for a Power Boost :P



#63
Ap0state

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And before anyone gets the idea that I wish to see mages slaughtered by templars or anyone else; I don't. However, I'm not so naive to think that a rebellion will solve their problems or make the world more accepting. I also realize that templars are needed and having them removed, or letting them slaughter every mage they can find, isn't going to help matters either. The only plausible long term solution to this mess is for both sides to stop fighting and reach an agreement that can serve as basis for building a more just and honest system in the future.

This one is the worst. The condescending line that anyone who thinks that they can win is naive, and the only 'realist' option is to submit to the oppressors. Unilaterally 'stop fighting'= surrender and that's fortunately, not a viable option. That's why those such as Anders and Adrian had the wisdom to remove it as an option, because this sort of 'realism' was resulting in mages being oppressed/imprisoned and enslaved rather than fighting back. 

Also, Debating game mechanics is pointless, if all you will do is assume that templars are unstoppable, because they are 'trained to counter mages', not in an even battle they aren't. They are trained to watch over them with the advantage of numbers, not stand up to them in a fair fight where they can't close distance and stab them in half a second. 


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#64
myahele

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The funny thing is. I think the circle sent about 7-9 mages (who were most likely enchenter level and beyond) to Ostagar. That should at least give us a clue as to how strong a well trained mage is.

I like the cut scene in kirkwall where mages and templars were fighting. It seemed to me a good indicator of an average mage vs average templar.

Mages already kinda have ffortresses in the form of circles ( assuming they can liberate them)

In the end, it'll be the common humans that'll suffer the most.

#65
LobselVith8

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The funny thing is. I think the circle sent about 7-9 mages (who were most likely enchenter level and beyond) to Ostagar. That should at least give us a clue as to how strong a well trained mage is.

 

Greagoir only permitted seven. You're correct about their useful. Duncan wanted a mage in every regiment at Ostagar because they are useful against large groups of darkspawn (with some having access to magic).

 

I like the cut scene in kirkwall where mages and templars were fighting. It seemed to me a good indicator of an average mage vs average templar.

 

The scene at the Gallows didn't make too much sense to me, since the templars weren't using their powers to nullify the magical abilities of the mages who they got close to, and the mages weren't using distance to their advantage to attack the templars, or taking advantage of the fact that the templars had to funnel in to gain access to them.

 

Mages already kinda have ffortresses in the form of circles ( assuming they can liberate them)

In the end, it'll be the common humans that'll suffer the most.

 

People seem to be getting caught in the middle at the Hinterlands.



#66
Hellion Rex

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People seem to be getting caught in the middle at the Hinterlands.

Indeed. Seems both sides have gone to hell.


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#67
Inprea

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Just a little Thing: Uldred was likely only able to take over the tower because greagoir was not willing to apply the Right of Annulment on his own (thus slaughtering every Mage in the Circle). Templars have to obey Chantry Laws just like Mages.

 

But it is true, from what I've seen, while one Templar seems superior or equal to the usual Circle Mage, he is vastly inferior against a Blood Mage. However, not every Mage will be willing to cross the Line to blood Magic (thus crossing the Line to "irredeemably evil") just as not every Templar will be willing to take red lyrium (which seems to me like the exact Counterpart to blood Magic - vastly empowering the Templar, but at the same Time crossing the Line to "irredeemably evil").

 

I don't believe your evaluation of Greagoir matches up with the story. He sent for the right and reinforcements. I believe the only reason he didn't act right then is he didn't have the man power to take the circle back. He is after all willing to annul the circle after the protagonist retakes the tower. Is their any evidence showing that the right arrived while the protagonist was cleaning the tower out?

 

You don't need every mage to cross the line to blood magic to get the desired results. You just need a few. The real threat of blood magic isn't it's ability to kill someone directly after all. It's to force someone to succumb to your will. As for blood magic being evil. Well that's your perception. I on the other hand see it as another tool. That it can help reshape and mold the flesh of the living is also rather useful. Such as the spell that can be used to augment the Warden's health or the potion Avernus comes up with.

 

Besides how many mages have we fought in the game that fought you one on one? The ones I can remember either hide a nice collection of thralls, undead or mercenaries between you and them. At times all three. If the mages are interested in fighting a war they'll be doing the same. Though I don't know if thralls being immune to dispel is a game mechanic or not. It always frustrates me that I can't save the templar from the desire demon by cleansing him.



#68
ctd757

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Didn't real whole thread. Will the City Elves team up with the Dalish?

#69
Feybrad

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I'm pretty sure the Devs themselves said Blood magic is evil.



#70
LobselVith8

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I'm pretty sure the Devs themselves said Blood magic is evil.

 

I see it as a tool, nothing more. The perceptions on blood magic vary in lore. We have Warden mages using blood magic to combat the darkspawn. We have apostates like Merrill who don't use it for malevolent purposes. Technically speaking, the Joining and the phylacteries are forms of blood magic. Finn even used a blood magic ritual in order to locate the Eluvian, when the Warden-Commander was searching for Morrigan. Even the lore reads that this school of magic isn't limited to villainous people or malevolent purposes: "They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."


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#71
Aimi

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The scene at the Gallows didn't make too much sense to me, since the templars weren't using their powers to nullify the magical abilities of the mages who they got close to, and the mages weren't using distance to their advantage to attack the templars, or taking advantage of the fact that the templars had to funnel in to gain access to them.


All cutscene battles in BioWare games reflect Rule of Cool, not how battles actually work or how they would make sense. Ostagar, the Citadel, the Collector Base, the Gallows, and Earth all have that in common.
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#72
CapivaRasgor

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This one is the worst. The condescending line that anyone who thinks that they can win is naive, and the only 'realist' option is to submit to the oppressors. Unilaterally 'stop fighting'= surrender and that's fortunately, not a viable option. That's why those such as Anders and Adrian had the wisdom to remove it as an option, because this sort of 'realism' was resulting in mages being oppressed/imprisoned and enslaved rather than fighting back. 

Also, Debating game mechanics is pointless, if all you will do is assume that templars are unstoppable, because they are 'trained to counter mages', not in an even battle they aren't. They are trained to watch over them with the advantage of numbers, not stand up to them in a fair fight where they can't close distance and stab them in half a second. 

 

He didn't say that, he said that he is not naive enough to believe that if the mages succeed  in the rebellion such a victory will make the mundanes of Thedas magically accept them in the society(no pun intended). And I'm inclined to agree with that, actually I believe that depending how the war goes the mages image to the average Thedosian might become worse.

 

And well, templars are trained to counter mages, we have little information on how their training is but it seems that it focuses on maiming the connection a mage has with the Fade(perhaps the Rite of Tranquility is a extreme extrapolation of this?), thus disrupting the mage's mana and ability to cast spells properly. The lyrium they consume also makes them durable against offensive spells. They usually fare worse against blood mages because those draw power from the physical world (the blood) and that makes their ability to cripple mana and spellcasting ineffective at best and useless at worse but their resistance to magic is still there.

 

@topic

 

There was one thing I was thinking, is anyone also under the impression that the writers added Red Lyrium as a templar equivalent of Blood Magic?



#73
Ap0state

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He didn't say that, he said that he is not naive enough to believe that if the mages succeed  in the rebellion such a victory will make the mundanes of Thedas magically accept them in the society(no pun intended). And I'm inclined to agree with that, actually I believe that depending how the war goes the mages image to the average Thedosian might become worse.

 

He said: "However, I'm not so naive to think that a rebellion will solve their problems or make the world more accepting"

You conveniently ignored the underlined part. Obviously, winning the war and therefore remaining independent would solve the problem of being imprisoned and enslaved. Maybe what you said is true, but what you're saying isn't what he said and in any case, the whole point I was saying is it's an entirely misguided strategy to hope that people who hate you will randomly change their mind about you; it's much more sensible to fight those who would enslave you.

On the tempars, if you admit that there's little/no information on what their methods are, one can't conclude they will be very successful, since there's little evidence to support it. I've already pointed out that they are used to situations where mages are either under their control, or alone and severely out-numbered; they are not trained to assault strong-holds protected by numerous mages in a group, and really what would happen in a battle or a war is anyone's guess.


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#74
CapivaRasgor

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He said: "However, I'm not so naive to think that a rebellion will solve their problems or make the world more accepting"

You conveniently ignored the underlined part. Obviously, winning the war and therefore remaining independent would solve the problem of being imprisoned and enslaved. Maybe what you said is true, but what you're saying isn't what he said and in any case, the whole point I was saying is it's an entirely misguided strategy to hope that people who hate you will randomly change their mind about you; it's much more sensible to fight those who would enslave you.

On the tempars, if you admit that there's little/no information on what their methods are, one can't conclude they will be very successful, since there's little evidence to support it. I've already pointed out that they are used to situations where mages are either under their control, or alone and severely out-numbered; they are not trained to assault strong-holds protected by numerous mages in a group, and really what would happen in a battle or a war is anyone's guess.

 

Their only problem is not that they are just "imprisioned and enslaved" , it's that the mundanes of Thedas are negatively biased towards the mages. I didn't ignore the underlined part, it's just that in my point of view rebellion won't completly solve their problems, it might in fact make this negative bias even worse, that was the point I was trying to make. I'm not implying that their rebellion isn't worth it though and I agree with you that they should fight for freedom, I'm just not under any illusion that they will come out of this fight unscathed or looking pretty on public opinion.



#75
Master Shiori

Master Shiori
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This one is the worst. The condescending line that anyone who thinks that they can win is naive, and the only 'realist' option is to submit to the oppressors. Unilaterally 'stop fighting'= surrender and that's fortunately, not a viable option. That's why those such as Anders and Adrian had the wisdom to remove it as an option, because this sort of 'realism' was resulting in mages being oppressed/imprisoned and enslaved rather than fighting back. 

Also, Debating game mechanics is pointless, if all you will do is assume that templars are unstoppable, because they are 'trained to counter mages', not in an even battle they aren't. They are trained to watch over them with the advantage of numbers, not stand up to them in a fair fight where they can't close distance and stab them in half a second. 

Please read carefully what I wrote.

 

I never said that trying to fight against oppression was naive, I said that thinking that a successful rebellion will suddenly solve the problems that mages face, and have faced for hundreds if not thousands of years, is naive. That's an entirely different thing. 

 

The fact that an order of warriors exists who keep mages under lock and key isn't a cause of the problems that mages face. The real problem is the fear and hatred that common people feel towards mages, which led to the creation of the templars in the first place - as a guarantee that these same mages wouldn't threaten the rest of society and that the society itself wouldn't be able to harm the mages. That the templars failed in the later part of their duty is clear as day, but removing them from the picture won't suddenly make everything right.

 

 

 

And since it's obvious that my posts on the matter are misinterpreted, whether intetionally or not, I'll make it as clear as I possibly can:

 

I didn't come here with the intention to insult anyone, regardless of their views on the templar/mage conflict. I'm simply arguing and presenting my view on the conflict and how I see it playing out for both sides. If anyone saw this as a personal attack, then I apologize. That certainly wasn't my intention. 

 

 

Oh, and thank you CapivaRasgor for making the effort of understanding what I was trying to say. I'm glad somebody here is.  :)