133 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

And I'm sure they all just dropped off the face of the earth instead of still being around, and many others like them that we simply haven't heard of yet, to lend assistance to the cause if needed and/or motivated. 

In The Witcher, elven squads fought alongside Nilfgaard against the Northern Kingdoms. Once the war was over, to buy peace, the Emperor gave their leaders to the Northerners to execute. Maybe the same happened to DA's Night Elves.

 

Seriously, tough? The DA writing team can come up with any number of trained elves. They're the writers, they can do it.

But it would be questionable if they suddenly introduced a squad of elves, deadly enough to face against Orlesian Chevaliers, that we never heard of before and yet managed to mantain their skills shapr enough despite having never caused trouble; and received no practice; hence why we never heard of them.

[myahele]

The only help I can see the Dalish giving the CE is maybe provide weapons or training. The Dalish already got enough problems staying isolated. They can risk open war fare, but I can see some clans atleast giving weapons.

Otherwise, if given training I can see them as assassins. In the novel Loghain trained a group of elves to be as spies/assassin. Its partly due to them killing important people that helped Ferelden win independence from Orlais.

Alot of CE are really just servants/ prostitutes

[Ap0state]

Fighting for and returning to the pre-Circle freedoms sounds like a great idea until you remember that the mages were being butchered in that time period.  For all the power of a Tevinter Magister or an adept Battlemage, the universal truth is that all mages start off as weak and vulnerable as anyone else.  They aren't born knowing how to cast fireballs and raise the dead.  Outside of Tevinter (presumably), their first manifestation is probably accidental and as much a surprise to the new mage as it is to anyone around them.  And in the post-Tevinter/pre-Chantry era, where mages were as 'free' as anyone else, that first manifestation was often the last, and it ended with the young mage getting murdered by a mob.

 

Modern day Thedas isn't any more enlightened.  The leading Mageocracy is still a primary Bogeyman for the rest of Thedas, and anti-mage sentiment is still very high among the populace.  The current behavior of both sides in the Hinterlands, and previously Kirkwall, won't have bought the mages any friends, either.  "But the Templars are being bad too!", you might say, and it's true, but the Templars can be disbanded, get a name change and wear a new coat of arms and they're right back in business as the new protectors of the innocent, totally different from those other guys.  Mages don't have that luxury.

 

There's really not much to suggest that mages winning their freedom through this rebellion won't ultimately lead to a return to that post-Tevinter era where some poor kid who just accidentally levitated a sheep gets dragged into the town square and burned to death.  The current incarnation of the Circle may not be perfect, but this rebellion risks returning to a time that was so horrible for mages that they considered a life were they were nothing more than living candle-lighters as preferable.

It's debatable that mages would be randomly slaughtered wholesale, and even if it is, that's not an argument for why this is better from their perspective than them just being trained; especially since I don't see why the slaughters wouldn't be happening in Status Quo as well, going by your reasoning. I can well see mages protecting their own though, and slaughtering mobs that do that to mage children, till mobs get the idea that maybe we might not want to kill that child in case some vengeful mage slaughters us.

[Mistic]

I very much hope we will be able to regain the Dales for the elves. But I think that if it is possible it will be more along the lines of a boon granted to us when we give the throne to either Celene or Gaspard, or perhaps a condition for helping one of them. After all the issue of the Orleasian throne must be settled for there to be peace.

 

Sincerely, there's only one way I can see an independent Dales happening in the DA setting: if the game assumes that there will always be one by the end of DA:I.

 

Let's be honest, having an independent elven nation is a big change. And Bioware games are good at giving the player freedom to decide the "how", but not the "what". The Blight will always be defeated, the Qunari invasion will always be halted and the Mage-Templar war will always start in Kirkwall. In my opinion, if we end up witnessing the birth of a new Dales it will be because Bioware wished so, not because of our decisions.

 

The "how", however, is another matter. For example, the end of the Orlesian civil war seems pretty clear: Gaspard or Celene (with maybe the third option of both). The A or B decision is a classic in Bioware games (open palm or closed fist, Ashley or Kaidan, destroy the Collector base or not, geth or quarians, Bhelen or Harrowmont, mages or templars), with a third option sometimes to make things interesting. So if there were an independent elven nation plot, which could the choice be? Dalish or City Elves?

[TK514]

It's debatable that mages would be randomly slaughtered wholesale, and even if it is, that's not an argument for why this is better from their perspective than them just being trained; especially since I don't see why the slaughters wouldn't be happening in Status Quo as well, going by your reasoning. I can well see mages protecting their own though, and slaughtering mobs that do that to mage children, till mobs get the idea that maybe we might not want to kill that child in case some vengeful mage slaughters us.

 

Dragon Age history speaks for itself.  We know what happened before, and we know not much has changed since in the minds of the common folks.  We know mages are still rare, random, and vulnerable without training , and we know there aren't enough trained mages to act as your punishment squads.  All you'd end up doing is proving the commons right and making things worse.

[Assassino01]

Sincerely, there's only one way I can see an independent Dales happening in the DA setting: if the game assumes that there will always be one by the end of DA:I.

 

Let's be honest, having an independent elven nation is a big change. And Bioware games are good at giving the player freedom to decide the "how", but not the "what". The Blight will always be defeated, the Qunari invasion will always be halted and the Mage-Templar war will always start in Kirkwall. In my opinion, if we end up witnessing the birth of a new Dales it will be because Bioware wished so, not because of our decisions.

 

The "how", however, is another matter. For example, the end of the Orlesian civil war seems pretty clear: Gaspard or Celene (with maybe the third option of both). The A or B decision is a classic in Bioware games (open palm or closed fist, Ashley or Kaidan, destroy the Collector base or not, geth or quarians, Bhelen or Harrowmont, mages or templars), with a third option sometimes to make things interesting. So if there were an independent elven nation plot, which could the choice be? Dalish or City Elves?

 

Well, if a theoretical Dragon age 4 is not set in the Dales I don't see much of a problem. A few codex entries would have to have a few different branches based on the player's choices and a few different dialog would have to be put in. But all in all I don't see the problem.  
 
After all they're making another Mass Effect game. And say what you will. But based on your choices there are allot of different outcomes, with entire species gone or alive. Compared to that having the elves in Dragon Age gain a homeland is a small matter.  
 
As for City Elves versus Dalish, doesn't Bioware always grant us a third option?

[CapivaRasgor]

Jeez, this thread just blobed... 

 

Oh, and thank you CapivaRasgor for making the effort of understanding what I was trying to say. I'm glad somebody here is. 

 

You are welcome 

 

It's said that Red Lyrium augments the templar's power beyond their normal level. Though It also causes negative effects on the person's psyche, as was demonstrated with Meredith and Barthrand. Guess that might explain why the Red Templars appear to be running amok and threatening both mages and mundanes. 

 

And well, it drives them insane and makes the veil thin and its... well... red. It's almost like the "Templars Blood Magic".

 

True. Related to the "how to wage war" matter, that codex entry about the Hinterlands points out a logical situation: without any kind of supply infraestructure, both mages and templars are resorting to typical banditry tactics to get what they need, that is, pillage and plunder. Although nothing new in any given war, it's going to cost both parties whatever amount of public sympathy they may have had before the war.

 

In that regard, the Inquisition's strategy is in fact the correct one: take abandoned or badly-protected keeps, restore order and offer protection to the surrounding lands and by the time the failed states whose lands you have technically usurped become less "failed", you will have good defensive positions, supplies, armies and more important, the goodwill of the people.

 

I wonder for how long they'll be able to rely on this tatic though, the Hinterlands are bound to run out of farms/villages eventually. Will this situation drive them to even more extreme measures to overcome their enemies? I have a feeling that it'll be at this point that the Inquisition will have a meaningful chance of stopping the conflict.

[Palidane]

Alright guys, could we drop the magical gun control arguments and get back to military strategy? We've strayed pretty far afield from the OP.

 

Anyway, I don't see the City Elves or the Mages as a competent military force, or as a legitimate threat to anybody that matters. The mages lack numbers, supplies, training, organization, and goals, while the City Elves lack firepower, training, leadership, equipment, and sensible long term goals. The mages are tough enough that its not worth attacking them, and the elves can keep doing what they're doing, but if either wants to make serious advancements, they're going to have to cut a deal with someone.

[Ap0state]

Dragon Age history speaks for itself.  We know what happened before, and we know not much has changed since in the minds of the common folks.  We know mages are still rare, random, and vulnerable without training , and we know there aren't enough trained mages to act as your punishment squads.  All you'd end up doing is proving the commons right and making things worse.

Not as rare, mage births are increasing at a very high rate and if there are enough mages to wage a war against professional templars, there are certainly enough to punish random mobs.

Again, it's somewhat ludicrous to simultaneously hear that it's justified to enslave them because they are so dangerous they can kill a single town alone etc., and then the same people say that random unarmed mobs will slaughter them out of existence. The stance can't keep changing based on what you justify? Take a pick; are they dangerous or not? It's even more ludicrous, because another argument I heard was 'untrained mages are more likely to cause carnage, because they get afraid and summon demons/lose control', if that happened a few mobs might get what's coming to them! 

[Ap0state]

Not as rare, mage births are increasing at a very high rate and if there are enough mages to wage a war against professional templars, there are certainly enough to punish random mobs.

Again, it's somewhat ludicrous to simultaneously hear that it's justified to enslave them because they are so dangerous they can kill a single town alone etc., and then the same people say that random unarmed mobs will slaughter them out of existence. The stance can't keep changing based on what you want to justify. Take a pick; are they dangerous or not? It's even more ludicrous, because another argument I heard was 'untrained mages are more likely to cause carnage, because they get afraid and summon demons/lose control', if that happened a few mobs might get what's coming to them! 

[Assassino01]

Alright guys, could we drop the magical gun control arguments and get back to military strategy? We've strayed pretty far afield from the OP.

 

Anyway, I don't see the City Elves or the Mages as a competent military force, or as a legitimate threat to anybody that matters. The mages lack numbers, supplies, training, organization, and goals, while the City Elves lack firepower, training, leadership, equipment, and sensible long term goals. The mages are tough enough that its not worth attacking them, and the elves can keep doing what they're doing, but if either wants to make serious advancements, they're going to have to cut a deal with someone.

 

  While I agree with you on the City Elf thing I think you are dismissing the mages rather too quickly. 
 
The mages might not be able to muster or replenish their numbers as quickly as the templars might. But they do possess some numbers. Now, I know these are very speculative numbers. But we know there are 15 Chantry controlled Circles of Magi. If we assume each have on average 300 mages we get 4500 mages. If we assume that there are an approximately equal number of apostates and hedge mages around we have about 9000 mages all together. At the very least I should think.  
 
Now 9.000 might not sound like very much. But remember that most of these people have a certain amount of training (Circle mages and apostates seem to possess a great deal of training in combat and healing from what we've seen), they're educated and organized (the Circles may be gone, but the leadership isn't and the fraternities are still there). The mages have a monopoly on enchanted goods, that has to count for something. And since they're such a small force they can be easily supplied.  
 
I'm thinking the mages if properly lead would have to be pretty severely outnumbered in order to be defeated in an open battle, and would be almost invincible in any fortified position.

[Ap0state]

Alright guys, could we drop the magical gun control arguments and get back to military strategy? We've strayed pretty far afield from the OP.

 

Anyway, I don't see the City Elves or the Mages as a competent military force, or as a legitimate threat to anybody that matters. The mages lack numbers, supplies, training, organization, and goals, while the City Elves lack firepower, training, leadership, equipment, and sensible long term goals. The mages are tough enough that its not worth attacking them, and the elves can keep doing what they're doing, but if either wants to make serious advancements, they're going to have to cut a deal with someone.

Lack goals? Independence seems like a pretty meaningful goal to me, and that applies to both. Sadly, I am inclined to agree with the 'lack of anything' argument when it comes to the Elves, but they may have something up their sleeves.

Also, a military fact people are ignoring is that groups that may be considered disorganized or unruly, are not at much of a disadvantage during a chaotic age when everyone is at war on multiple fronts and disciplined army style warfare becomes much tougher compared to guerilla tactics.

[Reaverwind]

Alright guys, could we drop the magical gun control arguments and get back to military strategy? We've strayed pretty far afield from the OP.

 

Anyway, I don't see the City Elves or the Mages as a competent military force, or as a legitimate threat to anybody that matters. The mages lack numbers, supplies, training, organization, and goals, while the City Elves lack firepower, training, leadership, equipment, and sensible long term goals. The mages are tough enough that its not worth attacking them, and the elves can keep doing what they're doing, but if either wants to make serious advancements, they're going to have to cut a deal with someone.

 

As I've said, what allowed the mages to get as far as they have are the templars themselves. I get the impression they (the templars) favor direct confrontation even when it's asinine. 

[Reaverwind]

  While I agree with you on the City Elf thing I think you are dismissing the mages rather too quickly. 
 
The mages might not be able to muster or replenish their numbers as quickly as the templars might. But they do possess some numbers. Now, I know these are very speculative numbers. But we know there are 15 Chantry controlled Circles of Magi. If we assume each have on average 300 mages we get 4500 mages. If we assume that there are an approximately equal number of apostates and hedge mages around we have about 9000 mages all together. At the very least I should think.  
 
Now 9.000 might not sound like very much. But remember that most of these people have a certain amount of training (Circle mages and apostates seem to possess a great deal of training in combat and healing from what we've seen), they're educated and organized (the Circles may be gone, but the leadership isn't and the fraternities are still there). The mages have a monopoly on enchanted goods, that has to count for something. And since they're such a small force they can be easily supplied.  
 
I'm thinking the mages if properly lead would have to be pretty severely outnumbered in order to be defeated in an open battle, and would be almost invincible in any fortified position.

 

You're also assuming that each one of those mages joins the war effort - where we have direct proof that isn't the case. You'll also need to account for how many are actually children.

[Assassino01]

You're also assuming that each one of those mages join the war effort - where we have direct proof that isn't the case. You'll also need to account for how many are actually children.

 

When I say mages I mean adult mages who have survived their harrowing/into adulthood. 

 

While some may not wish to join the fighting, or may join other organizations, the very nature of the mage-templar war forces any person with magical ability to essentially become part of the war. 

[TK514]

Not as rare, mage births are increasing at a very high rate and if there are enough mages to wage a war against professional templars, there are certainly enough to punish random mobs.

Again, it's somewhat ludicrous to simultaneously hear that it's justified to enslave them because they are so dangerous they can kill a single town alone etc., and then the same people say that random unarmed mobs will slaughter them out of existence. The stance can't keep changing based on what you justify? Take a pick; are they dangerous or not? It's even more ludicrous, because another argument I heard was 'untrained mages are more likely to cause carnage, because they get afraid and summon demons/lose control', if that happened a few mobs might get what's coming to them! 

 

There aren't enough mages to wage war against the full might of the professional Templars.  There are enough mages to scrabble out a stalemate against one undersupplied splinter of a fractured and disorganized Order, some of which is not even currently involved in the hostilities.  That seems to be the point of the Hinterlands segment.

 

As for the 'mage births increasing', I'm going to need some citation.  The only mention I recall of that is ambient dialog from the rumor drunks at The Hanged Man.  Not that it matters, mind you.  When you start at 1 birth per million (example) and go up to 3 births per million (also example), that's not a significant change in the makeup of your citizenry.  And since I am pretty sure we don't have numbers on mage births or by how much they may be theoretically increasing, it's not much of a point to hang your argument on.

 

And mages being dangerous enough to murder a town and being prey to armed mobs are not mutually exculsive.  Abominations kill towns.  This is supported repeatedly by the lore.  Young mages are murdered by mobs.  This is also supported repeatedly by the lore.  A young mage who becomes an abomination is the reason for the fear, and another young mage murdered by a mob is the result.  The first is rare, but the effect on the populace is widespread enough to make the second the 'acceptable' preventative measure.

[Ap0state]

There aren't enough mages to wage war against the full might of the professional Templars.  There are enough mages to scrabble out a stalemate against one undersupplied splinter of a fractured and disorganized Order, some of which is not even currently involved in the hostilities.  That seems to be the point of the Hinterlands segment.

 

 

Since this thread seems determined to take an empirical turn, how did you reach the conclusion there aren't enough mages?

[Palidane]

  While I agree with you on the City Elf thing I think you are dismissing the mages rather too quickly. 
 
The mages might not be able to muster or replenish their numbers as quickly as the templars might. But they do possess some numbers. Now, I know these are very speculative numbers. But we know there are 15 Chantry controlled Circles of Magi. If we assume each have on average 300 mages we get 4500 mages. If we assume that there are an approximately equal number of apostates and hedge mages around we have about 9000 mages all together. At the very least I should think.  
 
Now 9.000 might not sound like very much. But remember that most of these people have a certain amount of training (Circle mages and apostates seem to possess a great deal of training in combat and healing from what we've seen), they're educated and organized (the Circles may be gone, but the leadership isn't and the fraternities are still there). The mages have a monopoly on enchanted goods, that has to count for something. And since they're such a small force they can be easily supplied.  
 
I'm thinking the mages if properly lead would have to be pretty severely outnumbered in order to be defeated in an open battle, and would be almost invincible in any fortified position.

 

I'll agree with your numbers, but the problem is that these guys are spread out. The biggest gathering we've heard of so far is at Andoral's Reach, which is only a couple hundred mages. Many of them were killed in the initial fights at the Circle Towers, and the rest fled every which way they could. This isn't a unified army, just a bunch of roving bands of survivors. When the Templars come for them, and they will, it's going to look alot more like this than this. These guys are a threat to any village they come across, but I don't seem them marching on Val Royeaux to burn the Chantry to the ground.

[Palidane]

Lack goals? Independence seems like a pretty meaningful goal to me, and that applies to both. Sadly, I am inclined to agree with the 'lack of anything' argument when it comes to the Elves, but they may have something up their sleeves.

Also, a military fact people are ignoring is that groups that may be considered disorganized or unruly, are not at much of a disadvantage during a chaotic age when everyone is at war on multiple fronts and disciplined army style warfare becomes much tougher compared to guerilla tactics.

Yes, they have goals, but they they have no sensible plan for achieving those goals. At least the mages are willing to admit they are making it up as they go, but from my reading, it seems like Briala's plan is this:

 

1. Be a dick and screw over everyone more powerful than you.

2. ?????

3. Independent elven nation living in perfect harmony with all of the humans.

 

I mean come on, that has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

[Ap0state]

Yes, they have goals, but they they have no sensible plan for achieving those goals. At least the mages are willing to admit they are making it up as they go, but from my reading, it seems like Briala's plan is this:

 

1. Be a dick and screw over everyone more powerful than you.

2. ?????

3. Independent elven nation living in perfect harmony with all of the humans.

 

I mean come on, that has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

I already said I agreed with you about the elves in that post.

[TK514]

Since this thread seems determined to take an empirical turn, how did you reach the conclusion there aren't enough mages?

 

The fact that we've been told that the Mage/Templar war is ended by the Inquisitor via the conflict in the Hinterlands, the current situation in the Hinterlands is a stalemate with both sides raiding locals for supplies, and that the Templars in the Hinterlands are only a portion of the pre-schism Order.

 

Additionally, even were there enough mages to defeat the Templar Order, are there enough to defeat the rest of the mundanes of Thedas?  Let's assume there are enough mages for your punishment squads, and they roam the countryside blowing up villages that burn youngsters for being potential abomination seeds.  What do you expect the result of that to be when the citizenry start demanding protection from their authorities?  Authorities who, by the way, generally share in the 1000+ years of anti-mage sentiment.

[Assassino01]

I'll agree with your numbers, but the problem is that these guys are spread out. The biggest gathering we've heard of so far is at Andoral's Reach, which is only a couple hundred mages. Many of them were killed in the initial fights at the Circle Towers, and the rest fled every which way they could. This isn't a unified army, just a bunch of roving bands of survivors. When the Templars come for them, and they will, it's going to look alot more like this than this. These guys are a threat to any village they come across, but I don't seem them marching on Val Royeaux to burn the Chantry to the ground.

 

Well the Templars are also pretty spread out, and don't seem to have that much greater numbers than the mages. Now robbed of their wealth and lyrium, as well as strong leadership I don't really see how the Templars are going to be effective. Not unless they regroup and gain new leadership. That should at least give the mages time to gather into something resembling an army.

 

And the mages don't really need an army several thousand strong. If they stick to Andoral's Reach and gather their forces they'll soon be too strong to besiege there at least. A group of mages holding a strong possition would be a nightmare to defeat.

 

Also, the mages only seek inderpendence. Which they have. They do not need to destroy the Chantry. Only whatever remains of the templars. 

[Xilizhra]

To be completely honest, I don't think this thread has much point. Bioware has repeatedly demonstrated that its grasp of military strategy is... shaky at best, and that in large-scale warfare, they prefer to handwave away as many problems as possible with solutions like Easy Logistics for Reapers and darkspawn. Whatever will happen in DAI will be built around telling the story of the Inquisition, a story that fundamentally only passes through the mage/templar war and Orlesian civil war, and not necessarily be based on realistic strategic assessments.

 

 

The fact that we've been told that the Mage/Templar war is ended by the Inquisitor via the conflict in the Hinterlands, the current situation in the Hinterlands is a stalemate with both sides raiding locals for supplies, and that the Templars in the Hinterlands are only a portion of the pre-schism Order.

 

Additionally, even were there enough mages to defeat the Templar Order, are there enough to defeat the rest of the mundanes of Thedas?  Let's assume there are enough mages for your punishment squads, and they roam the countryside blowing up villages that burn youngsters for being potential abomination seeds.  What do you expect the result of that to be when the citizenry start demanding protection from their authorities?  Authorities who, by the way, generally share in the 1000+ years of anti-mage sentiment.

With luck, the Inquisition will be able to handle any and all future affairs having to do with mages, as the Chantry has proven itself impotent and the templars treacherous.

[TK514]

With luck, the Inquisition will be able to handle any and all future affairs having to do with mages, as the Chantry has proven itself impotent and the templars treacherous.

 

I dare you to name one effective and non-shady organized faction in this setting.

[Xilizhra]

I dare you to name one effective and non-shady organized faction in this setting.

The Inquisition?

 

Also, Lirene's Fereldan refugee network.