It also show's he's more of a follower then a leader.
You know, I thought it was just hawke overriding everyone else's decisions(which is pretty typical). but now that you mention it, Cullen doesn't really even speak up unless Hawke says to and he only tells the other templars to spare them after Hawke says so....
Incorrect. The Champion chose live or die, not Cullen. Why would he listen to an outsider who is not a Templar. All Hawke was doing was helping the Templars. If he has to have someone from the outside tell him to save or let the mages be killed, then how is he going to make any decision on his own in the future?
Please watch the video again. Hawke asks Cullen for his opinion. He says that the Right of Annulment is for dire circumstances and this isn't one even saying that the incident in Fereldan wasn't one as they saved some mages. Based on his council, Hawke can choose to kill like Meredith suggests or spare like Cullen suggests. Hawke says to spare them and he basically orders the Templars to stand down. There was no reason for them to listen to Hawke's order. Hawke is not their commander. Hawke can say "Go fly a purple pony" and they can attack them. The Templars are obeying HIS order not Hawke's...not Meredith's their actual commander.... His order.
You know, I thought it was just hawke overriding everyone else's decisions(which is pretty typical). but now that you mention it, Cullen doesn't really even speak up unless Hawke says to and he only tells the other templars to spare them after Hawke says so....
Actually he does speak up to Meredith, but she shuts him down. Hawke can then choose to press for a more detailed opinion. 
If Hawke chooses to agree with Meredith, he doesn't say anymore. He has been outvoted and has two people in supposed authority telling him he is wrong. Soldier mentality dictates that is what he has to do. Later he says to heck with that by choosing to outright defy Meredith.
I ran out of likes, Anarchy ate the last of it. Liked your posts as well as Boom's.
Cullen has seen a lot, in two circles, both ending crazy.
@Shemlife Thanks for getting derogatory at the end and forgetting everything I pointed out.
I said, a rogue and warrior can mass murder, I didn't say they could mind control, create undead, curse werewolves and such. Mages are condemned without a trial or being allowed the possibility of having choices of a life outside a prison. To stop the next mass murder, everyone should be imprisoned its what they did to Mages, prison from birth, not knowing anything about them. Connor should of got proper training not from that weak willed of a mage, Jovan.
A rogue at age 9 could surprise anyone what they might be capable of, some assassins/ninjas/martial artists are trained from very young. I will have to post when I can if I can where a kid under ten took down a full adult on his own. Don't have to be a mage to murder tons of people.
Edit here: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mass_murder Proof here if necessary. As I am deleting others below this of mine.
It also show's he's more of a follower then a leader.
If Cullen had more agency in these scenes, it wouldn't be Hawke's story anymore. He'd upstage the player and gamers on the whole would be upset for having even fewer choices in the game. Hawke makes the decision and Cullen follows it because it is Hawke's story. And no matter what the player chooses, Cullen still expresses his doubts and will expand on them if given the chance - even more so in a pro-templar ending. Considering that Hawke is renowned for winning, it takes some courage to speak against him/her. Regardless, it isn't Dragon Age: The Rogue Knight. You can't realistically hold Cullen responsible for a game mechanic. There was a certain story being told and the player was expecting some agency to affect that story. It leaves little room for an NPC to do much else BUT talk. He's consistent in airing his doubts against Meredith no matter what Hawke decides. That's hardly the mark of a follower to me.
Please watch the video again. Hawke asks Cullen for his opinion. He says that the Right of Annulment is for dire circumstances and this isn't one even saying that the incident in Fereldan wasn't one as they saved some mages. Based on his council, Hawke can choose to kill like Meredith suggests or spare like Cullen suggests. Hawke says to spare them and he basically orders the Templars to stand down. There was no reason for them to listen to Hawke's order. Hawke is not their commander. Hawke can say "Go fly a purple pony" and they can attack them. The Templars are obeying HIS order not Hawke's...not Meredith's their actual commander.... His order.
He maybe telling the Templars what to do, but it's still Hawke saying to spare the mages or kill them.
I ran out of likes, Anarchy ate the last of it. Liked your posts as well as Boom's.
Cullen has seen a lot, in two circles, both ending crazy.
@Shemlife Thanks for getting derogatory at the end and forgetting everything I pointed out.
I said, a rogue and warrior can mass murder, I didn't say they could mind control, create undead, curse werewolves and such. Mages are condemned without a trial or being allowed the possibility of having choices of a life outside a prison. To stop the next mass murder, everyone should be imprisoned its what they did to Mages, prison from birth, not knowing anything about them. Connor should of got proper training not from that weak willed of a mage, Jovan.
A rogue at age 9 could surprise anyone what they might be capable of, some assassins/ninjas/martial artists are trained from very young. I will have to post when I can if I can where a kid under ten took down a full adult on his own. Don't have to be a mage to murder tons of people.
are you actually comparing a kid being able to kill one guy to a kid nearly wiping a small city off the map
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Modifié par BioWareMod01, 06 juillet 2014 - 11:16 .
Edited to remove abusive comment
If Cullen had more agency in these scenes, it wouldn't be Hawke's story anymore. He'd upstage the player and gamers on the whole would be upset for having even fewer choices in the game. Hawke makes the decision and Cullen follows it because it is Hawke's story. And no matter what the player chooses, Cullen still expresses his doubts and will expand on them if given the chance - even more so in a pro-templar ending. Considering that Hawke is renowned for winning, it takes some courage to speak against him/her. Regardless, it isn't Dragon Age: The Rogue Knight. You can't realistically hold Cullen responsible for a game mechanic. There was a certain story being told and the player was expecting some agency to affect that story. It leaves little room for an NPC to do much else BUT talk. He's consistent in airing his doubts against Meredith no matter what Hawke decides. That's hardly the mark of a follower to me.
THANK YOU! *bows at feet*
He maybe telling the Templars what to do, but it's still Hawke saying to spare the mages or kill them.
Yes because Hawke is the PC. The Templars could have still attacked Hawke for sparing them if that was added to the in game mechanics, but instead they put a story bit in there showing Cullen's leadership. Remove the in game aspect. Make it a simple story you have no control over. Hawke, a civilian, tells a military order they are sparing these mages lives. Now, Hawke has no authority over them. Let me say that again, Hawke has NO authority over them. What do soldiers do? They follow orders. Now their commander, Meredith, has ordered them to kill the mages. Cullen steps up and tells them to do what the Champion says. They are now following CULLEN'S order over Meredith's because as I said, Hawke has no authority over them.
*Edit Because I said NPC not PC >.< D'oh*
If Cullen had more agency in these scenes, it wouldn't be Hawke's story anymore. He'd upstage the player and gamers on the whole would be upset for having even fewer choices in the game. Hawke makes the decision and Cullen follows it because it is Hawke's story. And no matter what the player chooses, Cullen still expresses his doubts and will expand on them if given the chance - even more so in a pro-templar ending. Considering that Hawke is renowned for winning, it takes some courage to speak against him/her. Regardless, it isn't Dragon Age: The Rogue Knight. You can't realistically hold Cullen responsible for a game mechanic. There was a certain story being told and the player was expecting some agency to affect that story. It leaves little room for an NPC to do much else BUT talk. He's consistent in airing his doubts against Meredith no matter what Hawke decides. That's hardly the mark of a follower to me.
How would he upstage Hawke in that one scene? All that needed to be done is have Hawke continue towards Orsino and then show Cullen either sparing the mages or killing them.
Deleted, unnecessary out of theme of thread.
Yes because Hawke is the PC. The Templars could have still attacked Hawke for sparing them if that was added to the in game mechanics, but instead they put a story bit in there showing Cullen's leadership. Remove the in game aspect. Make it a simple story you have no control over. Hawke, a civilian, tells a military order they are sparing these mages lives. Now, Hawke has no authority over them. Let me say that again, Hawke has NO authority over them. What do soldiers do? They follow orders. Now their commander, Meredith, has ordered them to kill the mages. Cullen steps up and tells them to do what the Champion says. They are now following CULLEN'S order over Meredith's because as I said, Hawke has no authority over them.
*Edit Because I said NPC not PC >.< D'oh*
He still followed what Hawke says.
He still followed what Hawke says.
If Cullen had more agency in these scenes, it wouldn't be Hawke's story anymore. He'd upstage the player and gamers on the whole would be upset for having even fewer choices in the game. Hawke makes the decision and Cullen follows it because it is Hawke's story.
Yes because Hawke is the PC. The Templars could have still attacked Hawke for sparing them if that was added to the in game mechanics, but instead they put a story bit in there showing Cullen's leadership. Remove the in game aspect. Make it a simple story you have no control over. Hawke, a civilian, tells a military order they are sparing these mages lives. Now, Hawke has no authority over them. Let me say that again, Hawke has NO authority over them. What do soldiers do? They follow orders. Now their commander, Meredith, has ordered them to kill the mages. Cullen steps up and tells them to do what the Champion says. They are now following CULLEN'S order over Meredith's because as I said, Hawke has no authority over them.
*Edit Because I said NPC not PC >.< D'oh*
If Hawke has absolutely no say/authority why didn't Cullen give the order either way? By your logic he could've saved the mages either way but instead he defers judgment to a civilian? Doesn't seem very leaderish to me.
He still followed what Hawke says.
It was his suggestion in the first place, why wouldn't he follow it? If Hawke kills the mages, he goes with it because he said his peace and was outvoted. But since the question was more about the first bit regarding the sparing of the mages making him a follower not a leader, I am still confounded by why that is so. He says before even asked that the Right of Annulment isn't necessary. His Commander tells him he is wrong and even asks if he is willing to risk lives by sticking with that opinion. He says YES! He's says that is what the order is supposed to do. Protect everyone. Why shouldn't he tell the Templars to follow Hawke when it was his opinion in the first place?
How about we continue to keep this civil, hm?
If Hawke has absolutely no say/authority why didn't Cullen give the order either way? By your logic he could've saved the mages either way but instead he defers judgment to a civilian? Doesn't seem very leaderish to me.
Because this is still a game mechanic where they do what the PC says. The point I was making was that the Templars didn't have to follow it. There was no reason to because they don't answer to Hawke. The game could have ended right there with Hawke saying we spare them and Meredith giving her death glare. Instead there is a bit added with Cullen ordering them to stand down and them listening to him. He could have tried to save them no matter what if they had included that in the game play. Giving you another battle either to protect Cullen or kill him since he had been outvoted and outranked in a decision to kill them. They however did not include that in the gameplay. What they did include is a scene showing the other Templars following him not Meredith. You can't say Cullen isn't a leader because of a gameplay "choice" issue. You can say he is a leader by having him give an order that is followed over the ranking officer's command.
I think that the point that's trying to be made is that would you, as a player, be happy for all the decisions to be taken out of your hands at the end of the game and given to an NPC character to make? I wouldn't, that wouldn't be my ending that I chose would it? That's why it's not Cullen's decision. He gives his opinion and we can either take his advice -- which is very sound by the way -- or we can go ahead and do what ever we want. Could you imagine the uproar that it would cause if it's Cullen's decision that overall ended the game.
How would he upstage Hawke in that one scene? All that needed to be done is have Hawke continue towards Orsino and then show Cullen either sparing the mages or killing them.
It would rob the PC of yet another choice. There were few enough meaningful decisions in DAII and that struck me as a big one. Not one of the biggest in terms of what happens overall, but big in how the PC chooses to play. Without such decisions, we'd be watching a movie and following prompts. I agree that there should have been more nuances along the way that showed the evolution of things but DAII was notoriously rushed. As an example, I cite the letter Cullen sends to Hawke in regards to Aveline. There were people who wanted her removed so the templars could assume the city guards' duties. In effect putting the Order in total control of Kirkwall and removing the only other force - lean though it was - capable of challenging them. Not only was it a burden Cullen didn't want as he already had many other responsibilities but it wasn't appropriate and he says he felt Aveline was a good woman and Captain of the Guard. He chose to act subversively to negate a power grab by the Order. There should have been more of these kinds of moments, in my opinion. Showing more of his doubts and developing him as a potential inside man would have made sense and shown more of his initiative. Instead we have only his spoken doubts, should one choose to speak with him throughout the game. But to simply remove that decision from Hawke - and thus the player - would have weakened an already lean game. Replacing that decision with something else the player can make a choice about would have taken more time, writing, coding, animation, voice work and all that making a game entails. Just to fit in a scene of Cullen doing something his detractors might find satisfying, when he was a minor NPC the devs were reprising for (I believe) the sake of continuity and connectivity of their games?
And again, the game wasn't about Cullen and what he chooses to do. He is a support character for the star: Hawke - the player. It would have made no sense to include such a scene and I doubt the devs thought it would be necessary at the time. DA II didn't need more Cullen-doing-what-we-think-he-should-have-done-to-make-DA:I-make-sense-to-everyone-before-it-even-ships; it needed more time, period. What Cullen does or doesn't do is never going to take precedence over the player's agency. Thus we only have what he says and chooses to support to gauge him on. Since there isn't much to go on from the first two games to definitively say much either way, we have to wait for DA:I to know more about his inner convictions. We see a bit of that at the end of DA II. It sets the stage for Cullen coming to realize the Order is no longer what he believes in anymore and begins to forge his own path. Meredith was just a symptom of a larger problem and I hope in DA:I Cullen has realized this. If he were just a follower, he'd be happily chugging the red lyrium and be Lambert's lapdog.
He gives his opinion and we can either take his advice
That's all it is advice, neither his choice or leadership matter because Hawke makes the decision. Same thing with Meredith, its her opinion and nothing else.
I think that the point that's trying to be made is that would you, as a player, be happy for all the decisions to be taken out of your hands at the end of the game and given to an NPC character to make? I wouldn't, that wouldn't be my ending that I chose would it? That's why it's not Cullen's decision. He gives his opinion and we can either take his advice -- which is very sound by the way -- or we can go ahead and do what ever we want. Could you imagine the uproar that it would cause if it's Cullen's decision that overall ended the game.
Right?!
How mad were people over not being able to stop Anders/Vengeance boom di boom? Could you imagine if not five minutes later you say "Spare the Mages" and they are killed anyway or you said "Kill the Mages" and Cullen stopped you or if you weren't even asked at all what to do with them? Lawd, people knickers be on fire!
That's all it is advice, neither his choice or leadership matter because Hawke makes the decision. Same thing with Meredith, its her opinion and nothing else.
So... what is it you want from Cullen, exactly? Legitimate question, I don't mean to sound snarky or anything, but you don't want him to lead, you don't want his advice, do you just not want him to be around at all?
So... what is it you want from Cullen, exactly? Legitimate question, I don't mean to sound snarky or anything, but you don't want him to lead, you don't want his advice, do you just not want him to be around at all?
I'll buy Option 'C' for $1000, Alex.
That's all it is advice, neither his choice or leadership matter because Hawke makes the decision. Same thing with Meredith, its her opinion and nothing else.
The Leadership aspect comes in later with his order of the Templars though if you spare the mages. They follow him. They walk off behind him. Not Hawke. They don't stay with Meredith. They follow him. He doesn't "follow" anyone stage left. His role in DA:I is exactly as it is here. He offers advice that you can accept or ignore then he tells the troops what to do and they listen. He isn't allowed to make a choice because he is an NPC. Now in DA:I he may be able to choose to give your Inquisitor a two finger salute and walk out the door if he disagrees with how you are handling things. We don't know that yet. But so far as what we were discussing in DA:2, he isn't allowed to make a choice because he is an NPC and they didn't include it. They only included him giving an opinion and giving him dialogue to order the troops away. They didn't have to do either of those, but the fact they do and the fact the Templars listen, points to him becoming a leader, not a follower. 
So that's what all that movement was up in my head? I thought the gerbil was rearranging his wheel again.
The fact he wasn't drumming his fingers over his lips after the Broken Circle was mighty impressive. His scowl-y face is quite a thing to revere I must admit. Also, I don't see him sitting back if Inquisitor starts acting all cuckoo for cocoa puffs. He will be watching you and everyone in the Inquisition like a hawk. The Uncle Ben to our Quizzy. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility or my ex-Templar boot implanted in your butt
Oh yeah.... about your gerbil.... real sorry... but it was just so small and I didn't see it in time... now my butt impression is all out of whack. It's wheel is fun though 
Yeah I can see him pulling my Inquisitor inline when needed. He seems to be a really straight forward guy that believes in doing the right thing. He can't of not learnt his lesson about not stepping in if it is needs to be done. I doubt he would ever lie or say something because it is what the Inquisitor wants to hear. He is honest and trustworthy, all attributes that are needed with a Military Adviser or we would have another Loghain on our hands.
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