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[The Elder King]

Sorry, but he calls mages weapons, and doesn't oppose Merediths insanity until she goes after Hawke.
 
You can call me offensive if you wish, but it still doesn't make Cullen have any wisdom.

He actually shown in Act 3, if you support the templars after Anders' actions, a different perspective.

[andy6915]

To be fare, he questioned Meredith's capability to act as Knight Commander right from the start of ACT 3 so he wasn't defending Meredith right up until she turned on Hawke. But it's the military, how easy do you think it would have been for him to tell his Commanding Officer to stand aside? I know we all like to say "Well, if I was in that position I would have stopped Meredith's crazy asap" but when it comes down to it military code is pretty strict, you follow your orders and Meredith had a lot of backing behind her. If he was to tell her to stand down earlier on in the game, who would have come to his side in agreement. Not many. 

 

But you are entitled to feeling this way, the same as I am in feeling about it the way I do. I like having good polite debates with people so thanks for letting me say my piece 

He had options though. The Seekers would have liked to know that the Knight Commander was breaking Chantry law and was far overstepping her bounds and acting as a viscount for years. Had Cullen contacted Cassandra and the other Seekers before it got out of hand, the situation at the end of act 3 might have never happened. They're pretty much the internal affairs of the Templars, best people to call when a knight commander with a lot of backing gets out of hand. It's a shame they didn't involved sooner, but they didn't know that situation was brewing because nobody told them like Cullen should have.

[The Elder King]

Cullen definitely made the wrong choice in believing in Meredith. It's possible he understood his mistakes though (and based on Gaider's words on Cullen's fan blurb, I think this theory is very likely).

[Danny Boy 7]

I think that we have to remember that although Templars are largely "policemen" they do act as an armed force whether during an Exalted March or at times such as Blights. Did Cullen potentially fight at the Battle of Denerim? Possibly. What's more important about that however is that Templars can and have worked as military units either during a mage annihilation or just when called upon which presents us with the evidence of military tactics and training. Whether this has been applied by Cullen is hard to know because largely any fighting he's done has been off screen. What I mean to say however is that the Templars act no different than a lot of medieval and modern militaries do during peace time, that doesn't necessarily make them any less capable, only less recognizable as an actual military if that makes any sense.

 

I think what's interesting is that Cullen presumably has the Battle of Kirkwall under his belt, survived both Meredith AND Hawke (though I admit he had the advantage) and from his little blurb either was indirectly responsible with helping clean up Kirkwall (whether he got orders is irrelevant since he presumably was the one implementing said orders) [Templar Ending] or was directly and almost instrumental to it's conclusion [Mage Ending]. I say instrumental because in the Mage Ending he didn't have Meredith, Hawke or Aveline (they were dead or fled Kirkwall) and so barring any theories to the contrary must have been the one leading the charge until Cassandra showed up. Sooo he has experience and presumably the training for such things is what I mean to say from all this lol.

[Ashelsu]

That reminds me. Why were Seekers not informed? Why Cassandra had to beat the truth out of Varric instead of questioning Templars starting with Cullen?

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

*SNIP*

 

You..... you are incredible! So eloquently written!

 

LIKE! With the fire of a thousand suns! I'm out of likes by the way. 

 

​EDIT: *APPLAUSE*

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

Sorry, but he calls mages weapons, and doesn't oppose Merediths insanity until she goes after Hawke.

 

You can call me offensive if you wish, but it still doesn't make Cullen have any wisdom.

Mages are weapons. That's not opinion, it's fact. Anyone who can set you on fire by thinking really hard about it are weapons. Just like Biotics are living weapons. They are still people and I am pro-mage. I never sided with the Templars. And he questions Meredith's ability to Hawke at the beginning of Act 3, but is unsure. He is unsure because he doesn't trust his own judgement. The end of Act 3 shows him finally see that he can trust his judgement. Neither side is 100% right. Wisdom comes from learning from your mistakes, which to me Cullen does. He admits when he was wrong. And what I found offensive wasn't this or even you. If you thought I was singling you out for something, I apologize. I wasn't singling anyone out which is why I didn't say what it was I found offensive.

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

You..... you are incredible! So eloquently written!

 

LIKE! With the fire of a thousand suns! I'm out of likes by the way. 

 

​EDIT: *APPLAUSE*

Thank you

[Blackout62]

[for] a startup organization like the Inquisition

 

Oh God, the Inquisition is a fantasy startup isn't it! The Inquisition version of camp will be an open office in a renovated gentrifying loft where the companions sit around pretending to be productive. As a startup, Inquisition Ventures is dedicated to an enjoyable work environment for its employees which is why Sera gets to go around the office on a Razor scooter. Cassandra as the official type is disgusted by the loose space they keep and in defiance is the only one with a desk but has her special chair that she needs for her back contrary to how much Varric tells her that a standing desk would be better. Varric himself will have a beanbag chair and a Moleskine notebook full of work on his next novel. Scribbles will walk through the building with a clipboard checking that everything's in order and occasionally sitting down on an exercise ball for one on one check ins with employees. Dorian and Vivienne have taken over a separate room at the office all but announcing it as only for cool people. On the opposite side of one of the free hanging drywalls of the cool room Leliana has setup her intelligence board taped with pictures of cute outfits and a few pieces of intel. At her feet is Smooples the "company dog". Solas is be sitting against a wall doing "important things" in the fade while everyone pretends they don't know that he's just regular sleeping. Blackwall seems to constantly be on the landing of the steps to the back entrance taking a smoke. And Iron Bull will go three weeks of stretched lunch breaks perfecting his game on the company ping pong table.

[Hizoku]

That reminds me. Why were Seekers not informed? Why Cassandra had to beat the truth out of Varric instead of questioning Templars starting with Cullen?

probably already did or plans to, but wanted to do what Seekers of Truth do and get both sides of the story.. although it does seem like she was very easily convinced by Varric.

[Danny Boy 7]

He had options though. The Seekers would have liked to know that the Knight Commander was breaking Chantry law and was far overstepping her bounds and acting as a viscount for years. Had Cullen contacted Cassandra and the other Seekers before it got out of hand, the situation at the end of act 3 might have never happened. They're pretty much the internal affairs of the Templars, best people to call when a knight commander with a lot of backing gets out of hand. It's a shame they didn't involved sooner, but they didn't know that situation was brewing because nobody told them like Cullen should have.

 

That's under the assumption that he didn't though or that protocol dictates when and how to report these kinds of abuses of power. Hell, he can accuse her of setting the Chantry on fire and bathing in the blood of the innocents and there's really no guarantee anything would have happened without photographable evidence. Not to mention that it'd be his word against hers, the leader of Eastern Thedas' largest Templar stronghold.
 

[Adanu]

Mages are weapons. That's not opinion, it's fact. Anyone who can set you on fire by thinking really hard about it are weapons. Just like Biotics are living weapons. They are still people and I am pro-mage. I never sided with the Templars. And he questions Meredith's ability to Hawke at the beginning of Act 3, but is unsure. He is unsure because he doesn't trust his own judgement. The end of Act 3 shows him finally see that he can trust his judgement. Neither side is 100% right. Wisdom comes from learning from your mistakes, which to me Cullen does. He admits when he was wrong. And what I found offensive wasn't this or even you. If you thought I was singling you out for something, I apologize. I wasn't singling anyone out which is why I didn't say what it was I found offensive.

I will have to agree to disagree. Mages are not weapons anymore than a warrior is a weapon because he has fists. Magic is a tool, and treating people as objects because of the tool they wield is the logic that broke the circles in the first place.

[Danny Boy 7]

That reminds me. Why were Seekers not informed? Why Cassandra had to beat the truth out of Varric instead of questioning Templars starting with Cullen?

 

She knew about the broad issue, rebellion and such, but Varric was the only person she could track down with the Champion's full story. Like I'm sure she knew Meredith went psycho, but why and what exactly caused it would be the knowledge of Hawke and co only.

[The Elder King]

That reminds me. Why were Seekers not informed? Why Cassandra had to beat the truth out of Varric instead of questioning Templars starting with Cullen?

I'm more on the mind that Seekers should've visited the various Circle in Thedas to keep templars in check, regardless of the input of others. And the Kirkwall Circle was... 'renown' for being the harshest Circle in Thedas.

[Hizoku]

That's under the assumption that he didn't though or that protocol dictates when and how to report these kinds of abuses of power. Hell, he can accuse her of setting the Chantry on fire and bathing in the blood of the innocents and there's really no guarantee anything would have happened without photographable evidence. Not to mention that it'd be his word against hers, the leader of Eastern Thedas' largest Templar stronghold.
 

I don't think the Seekers would leave the investigation at just asking Cullen or abandon it just because there isn't any "proof" lying around out in the open.. pretty sure they'd scour Kirkwall for any clues, take testimonials from the Circle mages and Templars (many of whom would likely have told the truth about what was going on), and anything else that would be considered protocol when investigating whether or not a high ranking Templar starts acting naughty..

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

I will have to agree to disagree. Mages are not weapons anymore than a warrior is a weapon because he has fists. Magic is a tool, and treating people as objects because of the tool they wield is the logic that broke the circles in the first place.

But you can take a warrior's sword away correct? The sword being his "weapon". Magic is part of who a mage is, not a tool. You can not take away the magic so that makes /them/ the weapon. It's not treating them as an object to acknowledge their abilities make them dangerous. The circle wasn't the right option, but Mages walking around all willy nilly with no training is like giving a bomb to a child. Mages have to be taught how to use their magic without sending everyone, including themselves, to the Maker because they had a bad teen day and their emotions set off a magic bomb because they didn't know how to control it. The Magic is the actual weapon, but since you can only remove that through tranquility, you have to acknowledge the person as a weapon. Tranquility should never be the choice to disarm someone.

[Danny Boy 7]

I will have to agree to disagree. Mages are not weapons anymore than a warrior is a weapon because he has fists. Magic is a tool, and treating people as objects because of the tool they wield is the logic that broke the circles in the first place.

 

Yeah...but its more like giving a child a gun to keep safe. I mean most of our companions have mentioned how they discovered their magic by setting things on fire or when they were being whispered to by demons. And it's not as though magic was just immediately set upon by zealots, it was an abuse of power that caused another abuse of power that will either cause an abuse of power on our part or the end of the cycle.

 

Don't get me wrong you're absolutely right that treating people as objects is just as stupid as assuming that they're precluded to BE weapons, but to ignore it is just as dangerous. A warrior can put down his weapons or have it taken away from them, mages really can't without lasting damage and unfortunately Tevinter is always there to make mages look bad.

 

Not that I won't free mages if I have to choose that or an unchanged circle.
 

[Adanu]

But you can take a warrior's sword away correct? The sword being his "weapon". Magic is part of who a mage is, not a tool. You can not take away the magic so that makes /them/ the weapon. It's not treating them as an object to acknowledge their abilities make them dangerous. The circle wasn't the right option, but Mages walking around all willy nilly with no training is like giving a bomb to a child. Mages have to be taught how to use their magic without sending everyone, including themselves, to the Maker because they had a bad teen day and their emotions set off a magic bomb because they didn't know how to control it. The Magic is the actual weapon, but since you can only remove that through tranquility, you have to acknowledge the person as a weapon. Tranquility should never be the choice to disarm someone.

Warriors fists and legs can't be disarmed, therefore they are weapons that must be controlled.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

He had options though. The Seekers would have liked to know that the Knight Commander was breaking Chantry law and was far overstepping her bounds and acting as a viscount for years. Had Cullen contacted Cassandra and the other Seekers before it got out of hand, the situation at the end of act 3 might have never happened. They're pretty much the internal affairs of the Templars, best people to call when a knight commander with a lot of backing gets out of hand. It's a shame they didn't involved sooner, but they didn't know that situation was brewing because nobody told them like Cullen should have.

 

That is very true and yes he is at fault for this but so are others. Cullen laid his faith in the wrong people. Had too much faith that Meredith wouldn't be so easily corrupted, he had too much faith that Elthina would step in when she should have instead of treating Orsino and Meredith like children and sending them back to opposite ends of the circle. It's a very human thing to do and unfortunately it all lead to disastrous events. But there were other people that held more power than him that could have stepped in and put a stop to what was happening. I think the system as a whole was at fault and it shouldn't all be laid to rest on one persons shoulders as theirs alone.

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

Warriors fists and legs can't be disarmed, therefore they are weapons that must be controlled.

They can if they are the Black Knight. :-P Sorry, thought I'd ease the tension. If a warrior's arms and legs are like say, Jackie Chan... they are a weapon and can be "disarmed" by tying them up. MMA fighters call themselves living weapons and they are. They can kill you with a punch, but if they are bound, they can't hit you. The only option to stop a Mage shooting a fireball at you is kill them or make them Tranquil. That is just a fact. It doesn't make them an object. It does make them a powerful person to be respected and possibly feared if the magic being wielded is wielded by a bad person.

[Danny Boy 7]

I don't think the Seekers would leave the investigation at just asking Cullen or abandon it just because there isn't any "proof" lying around out in the open.. pretty sure they'd scour Kirkwall for any clues, take testimonials from the Circle mages and Templars (many of whom would likely have told the truth about what was going on), and anything else that would be considered protocol when investigating whether or not a high ranking Templar starts acting naughty..

 

Well I meant that if he went to them with the information rather than them taking a vested interest. It's easier if they were already curious...and given that Lambert wasn't exactly fond of mages to begin with his own biases might have been to chastise Cullen or anyone really who questioned their superiors. I mean look how long it took for the issue to finally actually be investigated fully. The world had to actually fall apart, presumably because the Seeker, like any organization have to prioritize immediate threats whereas Kirkwall was slowly bubbling to the boiling point.

 

 

[Danny Boy 7]

Warriors fists and legs can't be disarmed, therefore they are weapons that must be controlled.

 

You can cut them off. Not to mention that comparing a fist to something more akin to dynamite or as Anders showed us a missile is assuming that you can disarm a mage just as easily as someone with fists...which you obviously just cant.
 

[Danny Boy 7]

Just to add to something Lost in Anarchy said about Jackie Chan....even though he is a weapon, as well as MMA fighters are weapons, you can conceivably with your own fists still put up a fight. The moment someone can set you on fire with their mind is when chances of an equal fight go out the window.

[Caja]

 

OMG. Good points ! Whatever happened to military personnel in Ferelden, Orlais (the two nations we will be going to), Aveline Vallen (who has more experience in being a leader than Cullen) and pro-Templar Hawke ?

 

All these people..who are way more qualified...swept under the proverbial bus for Cullen...

 

Talk about being a revisionist...

 

Yeah, this is because Cullen was carefully picked and selected to be a member of the team. It doesn't have anything to do with the Cullenites and the 1900+ pages about how good he looks.  

 

Well, in all fairness, just the last 26+ pages were about how good he looks .

 

On a more serious note, I'm a little bit annoyed by the statement because it makes everyone look very shallow, Cullenites and developers alike. If the information that Allan Schumacher provided earlier and the linked posts by David Gaider did not demonstrate convincingly enough that Cullen was not included as fanservice, then I guess you have already formed your opinion.   

 

 

 

The Inquisition is an organization whose purpose is to, essentially cancel the apocalypse in Thedas. You do that by having rational, logical and capable people on the team.

 

I would be very happy and very willing to have Cullen on the Inquisition team and being a military adviser if there is a rational and logical reason to do so. 

 

Problem is, there isn't any. 

 

He is not the best templar out there. He is good but there are better ones out there like Gregoir and Evangeline. 

 

He is being massively retconned both in Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age Origins.

 

People who are far more capable and far more suited to the role of the adviser exist and they are all being thrown under the proverbial bus to make way for him.

I haven't read the books so I can't comment on Evangeline. But out of curiosity, what would make Gregoir the better choice? After all, he was "hiding" behind sealed doors when the s*** hit the fan in the Ferelden tower, ready to invoke the Right of Annulment. Not exactly my definition of a badass leader. Also, Gregoir did nothing to improve the situation and basically let a group of strangers handle it (depending on your origin). Mind you, I've got nothing against the guy. I enjoyed his relationship with Irving.  And from a game design perspective we wouldn't have the tower quest if Gregoir had handled the situation all by himself. But what I find a bit odd here is why he would be the better choice as a military advisor? Furthermore, the wiki describes Gregoir as "strong in his beliefs and devoted to his duty". Well, the same is true for Cullen. As a matter of fact, I was under the impression that some users were bothered by the fact that Cullen believed in his duty as a templar so firmly (namely in Act 3 of DA 2). 

 

And yes, he was retconned in DA 2 but certainly not in DAO since it was the first game in the series, so not much continuity there to change. I admid that I am not a huge fan of altered continuity but it's just the way it is. Besides, I really think no one beats Leliana in this area .

 

That being said, I think it's a pity that people who dislike Cullen as a character in general or in the role of a military advisor in particular won't even wait to play the game, so they can see how he turned out. 

 

 

Edit: Seriously, there is a censorship for words?

Modifié par Caja, 05 juillet 2014 - 11:19 .

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

@ Dannyboy I keep trying to like your posts but my quota of LIKES for the day have already been swallowed by other posters --they are greedy, I know-- so here.................... *Lifts a bag over your head and showers you with LIKES* Those are way better cos it took more effort than clicking a 'LIKE' button.