147 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

I'm interested in where the line is drawn. What can a character do that is so vile, the character cannot be redeemed.

[SgtSteel91]

It would lend you the support of a popular if not powerful noble who can serve as a bulwark against Loghain and thus aid you i achieving your overall goal, that’s assuming that saving Redcliff wouldn’t for some reason provide you soldiers and supplies, yes the town is devastated but the arlshipis not.

 

But can the game allow you to make this case when you decide to defend Redcliff? Or is the game structuring this decision instead as "I'm a white knight hero and these helpless peasants are in need of our help so let's stay for the night and fight off some skeletons."

 

Or you're defending Redcliff because it's what heroes do, not because you get support, soldiers, etc.

[Tenebrae]

I'm interested in where the line is drawn. What can a character do that is so vile, the character cannot be redeemed.

 

I think that would depend on the personal morality of your current pc, you have to ask yourself what is a line your character would not cross and use the a measuring stick.

[Nimlowyn]

I think part of it is that we vicariously live through these characters...and when they are redeemed, we ourselves feel redeemed. 

 

Redemption is hope, and that is a very, very powerful thing. 

[Eveangaline]

Rendon Howe for companion and LI

[Tenebrae]

Employing a fetuspult.

 

Also, kitten abuse. Kicking puppies might be redeemable. But kittens? No. The Makers says.

 

I do wonder if Jaime would have followed through with that threat.

 

No! After the Anders debacle the Maker has declared all kittens to be enemies of theadas for they are allied with that vile abomination! All hail the age of the Mabari!

 

(Keep your doggy treats close at hand)

[Tenebrae]

I think part of it is that we vicariously live through these characters...and when they are redeemed, we ourselves feel redeemed. 

 

Redemption is hope, and that is a very, very powerful thing. 

 

I can respect that, and believe me i do enjoy playing the hero and redeemer at times i just wish there was more variety.

 

Playing the same role time after time tends to become tedious, and no matter how well written the story is i eventually find myself sighing and and thinking to myself: "Again? Really?".

[Tenebrae]

Rendon Howe for companion and LI

That is horrible and the mental image it has given me is scarring, i have no words that would describe the horror i feel at such a prospect , well done sir.

[wolfhowwl]

People hate the inability to change something.

[General TSAR]

Redemption stories are easier to write and are more sympathetic to the audience. 

[In Exile]

If they're the protagonist, they're an anti-hero.

 

No. They're Villain Protagonists. Like Light in Death Note. An anti-hero (even if we use the broader modern meaning vs. the original one) typically is a reference to more a grey character. An anti-hero in the original sense is someone who just doesn't have the typical (traditional) heroic qualities.

[In Exile]

Can you actually say this, that taking time to save Redcliff will give resources in the fight against the Blight, to her when you make the decision? I know there are parts of the game where companions will object to your decisions and you are given a persuade option that will give less or even positive approval for them.

 

You can't. You also can't tell her that saving Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon's potential her at a time when the Arl himself might well be dead, is your best move to gather political support. 

 

In fact, that her whole plot against Loghain is "walk up and kill him" is a pretty clear sign that strategic, political thinking is not even remotely Morrigan's strength. I mean, Alistair of all people comes up with a perfectly rational criticism of her plan. Alistair. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Those are called villains, and we generally kill them. 

They're not even interesting villains.  Like The the Joker in The Dark Knight.  I hated that movie, because the villain was so one-dimensional.

[In Exile]

They're not even interesting villains.  Like The the Joker in The Dark Knight.  I hated that movie, because the villain was so one-dimensional.

 

I agree. Though I would say that I think that the Joker is the best portrayal about that time of villain, someone who is just simply chaotic evil, with no rhyme or reason.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree. Though I would say that I think that the Joker is the best portrayal about that time of villain, someone who is just simply chaotic evil, with no rhyme or reason.

It just really drove home how much I don't care about stories about those sorts of characters.

 

You want an interesting film villain?  I recommend The Young Poisoner's Handbook.  It's one of my all-time favourites.

[In Exile]

It just really drove home how much I don't care about stories about those sorts of characters.

 

You want an interesting film villain?  I recommend The Young Poisoner's Handbook.  It's one of my all-time favourites.

 

Thank you for the recommendation! It looks great. 

[Devtek]

If you come up with an answer in this thread make sure to tell nearly 5000 years of philosophers so I don't have to sit through another lecture about the "nature of man".

[SgtSteel91]

You can't. You also can't tell her that saving Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon's potential her at a time when the Arl himself might well be dead, is your best move to gather political support. 

 

In fact, that her whole plot against Loghain is "walk up and kill him" is a pretty clear sign that strategic, political thinking is not even remotely Morrigan's strength. I mean, Alistair of all people comes up with a perfectly rational criticism of her plan. Alistair. 

 

What do you expect from a women who lived her life in a forest with Flemeth? Even shaking hands is a foreign concept to her.

[Steelcan]

I suspect their popularity is rooted in Judeo-Christian mythology and the traditions it has inspired

[SynGMW]

Coming from one who has a strong Christian faith, I believe that redemption stories are often popular and are so common because all of existence is a story of redemption, so when we can interact with it in a game, it touches a part of our very nature as human beings. I also think that the reasons for one's actions make a large difference in how best to interact with them. As for redemption and repentance, I am curious to see what difference you see between the two terms. In my mind, both have to do with an individual coming to a point where they believe their actions/beliefs are wrong and need to change. As a result, redemption would not undermine a character to me, because the character is realizing the correct way to live. Please don't confuse that idea to mean I think everyone has to see everything in the exact same way, though. Obviously different viewpoints can be beneficial, but I do believe that some choices are right, while others are wrong.

[In Exile]

What do you expect from a women who lived her life in a forest with Flemeth? Even shaking hands is a foreign concept to her.

 

I expect a person whose entire ideology is an obsession about power to understand at even a basic level what power is and how it can be acquired.

[meganbytez]

i personally believe redeeming pass wrong doings is one of the strongest things a person can do and not weak at all.

 

i also think people love villains and they often have more interesting, dark attitudes. heroes are cool but villains idk they just seem to be more interesting. but them dying isn't such a great ending for them. so if they redeem themselves, they keep their dark character while still living and helping save the day. 

 

i personally haven't experienced so many redemption's stories in my life to the point where i see them as genetic and common. but I'm sure there are a lot. could they be done differently? probably. there is always room for more creativity once a certain type of plot is used many times. 

 

i do believe most people are not evil at all and most people are have good/bad in them. there is a very small percentage of people that i think are truly evil with no mental health issues. but i do think that small percentage exist and i wouldn't be against a purely evil person. but it's nice to also have the gray.  i think that is interesting and realistic. 

[Helios969]

And by the time he finally yields, I could care less.
 
By that point he's committed countless atrocities, allowed atrocities to go on by the people working under his nose, refused to heed the advice and warnings of the people around him (including Anora and Howe, of all people), refused to admit the possibility that he might be mistaken or wrong, blame everyone under the sun for his own terrible actions except himself (the entire Landsmeet is pretty much him flinging all the blame for his decisions back on the Wardens and Cailan), and potentially refused your offer to join forces twice. (The first time when Eamon first calls the nobles, the second time during the Landsmeet before he attacks).
 
By that point, I'm fed up. He had his chance to yield, compromise, and come forward "times beyond counting" (as he likes to say), and refused every single time. He wanted things his way or no way and was willing to sacrifice as many people as it took to make his vision a reality. I'm done. He had his chance and he refused it. He knew the potential consequences of his actions and he chose to go forward with it anyway. He can die by it for all I care.
 

 
Nah, his punishment's public execution. Serve as an example to other nobles who want to try to pull that **** in the future.

Hell yes this. I love a good redemption story but there are lines you don't cross. Loghain and Anders are two examples of characters I have no time for...they're willing to sacrifice untold numbers of innocents to achieve their goals. And I don't think either is evil but the acts they committed are and thousands pay the price. I feel no remorse putting either down...and I'm about as empathetic as you can get.