83 réponses à ce sujet

[Magdalena11]

It can take a long time before a solo mage can afford luxuries like Mana Clash, like middle to late teens. And even then it cannot be taken without seriously compromising combat ability. I'd rather take the earth line, angle for Entropic Death, or go into shapeshifting.

I beg to differ, good gentle.  While I can't speak for nightmare, since I've not done a whole playthrough on it yet and may never grow enough ego to try, mana clash is nearly obligatory.  The PC's most dangerous opponents are arguably the mages, and taking them out right at the start of combat is an ability I would like to possess as early in the game as possible.  I kinda think the reason MC was dropped after DAO was that they didn't realize how big of an unfair advantage it was.  Of course, the archers spamming scattershot at you are nearly as bad, but they're the bad guys.  They're allowed to cheat.

[DarthGizka]

Mhmm... Mana Clash is insanely effective against mana users but totally useless against everyone else. That makes it useless 99% of the time, and expendable almost all the time. Gaxkang and two or three other bosses - those with Blood Wound or Crushing Prison - are a lot easier with Mana Clash, but that spell can be resisted and then you have to fall back on general CC/nukage anyway.

 

Of the rest, a few may require special caution to incapacitate and kill them before they get into casting range, but Mana Clash requires the same caution in these cases. In the Deep Roads and Orzammar there are four or five such occasions, and Mana Clash could be mildly useful there. That's four or five kills out of 701 for the whole expedition, which includes 15 bosses against almost all of whom Mana Clash is totally useless. And bosses aren't the only headaches a soloing mage has to contend with. Think golems, informal trailing, kill stealing situations...

 

On the headache-solving scale for soloing mages, Mana Clash ranks so low as makes no odds, and there are always more useful spells to hanker after. E.g. Blood Wound or the Earth line of spells for my Ajira, who just turned 18 at the end of the end of the Orzammar campaign. That's why I said the thing that you quoted, about Mana Clash being a luxury item.

[Mike3207]

Well-with the Mana Clash line for me it comes down to-are you going to use Spell Might? Spell Wisp and Spell Might together will add a significant amount to your spellpower, even if you don't use SOTC. Spell Might is always something you can pick up later on.If you choose not to get Spell Might, then you might as well not pick up Mana Clash.It does let you oneshot mages, but there are numerous ways to take out mages. Arrow of Slaying, Dog, a ranger pet, a stealthed rogue, quite a few others.The first two spells are pretty useless in the line, so if you don't need Spell Might you might as well not pick up the line.If you pick up Spell Might however, no reason to not get Mana Clash as well.

[Elhanan]

Sorry, but Mana Clash also works very well against Demons, and the areas with those and Mages are so much faster and easier that I often keep this tier in my lists for the odd encounter. While the occasional CTD is irritating, the results are worth the reloads.

[DarthGizka]

Mana users are rare and dangerous ones are extremely thin on the ground. That's maybe one encounter in fifty where Mana Clash might be nice but ten times as many where those wasted spell points hurt.

 

A soloing mage has a lot more headaches than spell points to address them, so it's always a balancing act. For example, Ajira lost three hostile deshyrs to kill-stealers because she didn't have Blood Wound, and she had to opt for the easier 'inside' version of the Kolgrim fight because at that time she just didn't have the firepower to solo the 'outside' fight with the all the trimmings (including that blasted fire-proof drake).

 

Of the things ahead, Denerim calls for Blood Wound because it's the only way to get a perfect score during the mass encounters with friendlies (Sgt. Kylon, and the hostage thing for the Crows), and the same holds true for the dwarves you have to rescue from a darkspawn horde, and the Roadside encounter with the three bumbling suicidal mages who pick an unwinnable fight with a group of darkspawn. Plus Civil War, and the Refugees thing.

 

On the other hand, Redcliffe urgently calls for Combat Magic, Earth Quake and maybe even a healing spell, and it will be blastedly difficult even so. Something will have to give here, and the count of lost kills will probably rise in any case. I've already lost one friendly - a werewolf during the Zathrian fight - and I have no intention of losing any more if I can help it.

 

There's just no space for luxuries until the Redcliffe/Landsmeet bounty of extra spell points rolls in, and even then there's better things to get. Like Shock/Tempest or Entropic Death. None of my solo mages has ever taken Mana Clash because the number of actual problems it solves is almost zero. Same for Spell Might. Or investing into WIL instead of MAG outside of a no-pots run, for that matter. Wasting spell/attribute points during a solo run pretty much invariably entails falling down on the job, at least with legit DAO builds. Judging by the numbers you posted in the other thread you seem to have lost/ignored some five hundred kills, despite the broken respec mod you must have used. And how many friendlies fell by the wayside, I wonder? Be honest.

[Elhanan]

Again, I can Respec as I wish, but generally leave Mana Clash on the lists anyway due to outstanding performance. OTOH, rarely have taken Blood Magic; prefer Spirit Healer, and have never used Shifter as it holds no interest for me. Takes down Mages and many Demons with ease, has a good AoE, and is worth the invested points for me.

All of my Mages invest in Willpower; both solo and party support, and all take AW to avoid hats at the very least. As for FF, that depends on the Mage, as some care to avoid it; others care less, as personality comes into play.

Simply not into min/ max being the priority. While I do not waste points on say Cunning over 16 for most characters, I do see advantages for WILL, DEX, and occasionally CON for Mages; the latter on rare occasions when I have tried Blood Magic. Otherwise, it usually gets left as is.

[DarthGizka]

It's not about min/maxing, that's just a side effect. It's about not falling down on the job; everything else follows from that.

 

Until now Ajira has a near perfect score (three lost kills out of 1886, and one friendly lost) but Redcliffe will likely put an end to sitting on the fence and she will have to decide whether she's a Jedi Knight or a Sith. That is, whether to save all friendlies (even if lots of kills are lost and maybe even strict soloing rules broken) or whether to go for a perfect kill score and if Lloyd insists on storming into a burning Inferno again then he is more than welcome.

 

The whole concept of a 'build' falls down if you eliminate the cost of choosing (respec mod), add half a dozen levels' worth of disposable attribute points (broken respec mod that allows redistribution of non-distributable origin, class and Fade bonusses), not to mention eliminate the only objective criterion for judging the worth of a build, which is fitness for purpose. That's why I asked after the number of friendlies you sacrificed with an approach to stats/ability choice that seems to be based more on whim and superstition than on reasoned choices.

 

I also wondered about the total number of Rose's attribute points, which is 118 above base and thus 4 more than level 25 plus 2 tomes plus Fade. Frozen Wastes (3) plus Caladrius (1) perhaps? Four points is nothing in the big scheme of things, but I found it odd...

 

By the way, I investigated the hit rate thing. It refers only to melee attacks and those with ranged weapons, not to spell casting. For a non-AW mage that would mostly be staff blasts, with misses due to blockage or to enemies dying while a blast is en route to them.

[Elhanan]

That was the DAO end game stats I posted for Rose. And the Respec mod does not appear to be broken in my game, where the Player sets the rules; hence no Falling Down business in my game.

And I am not a fan of stats, as they can be made to dance for the one presenting them; simply posted some evidence that the 'proper' way to play the class was not the only way; cannot post screenshots for some reason.

FF dmg for Rose was 5410; 25,000+ for Blood Mage, 3100+ for canon Mage. Cannot say why Rose has extra pts; took off all items when I looked at those attributes, and have never used Frozen Wastes or the deal from Caladrious. Perhaps the draught from Warden's Keep? Or the two Specializations?

In any event, prefer versatility and adaptability to static builds, and they are certainly viable. And Mana Clash is a worthy spell to have on the lists.

[Ironman Gaming]

I've gotten mana clash before on builds and without, but tend to skip it in general for the reasons stated.  Not too useful in the early game and expensive if playing solo/noreload (only way I've been playing for the past few years)...It also gets resisted a lot (from my experience), if say, I do the mage tower treaty first after Lothering so can't really depend on it.  Fireball and glyph stun seems to hit with far more consistency so those work much better for me.

 

I do tend to take Spell Shield to get the 75% spell resist and just depend on that for the early game...probably worth getting mana clash at the later levels for spell might as well.