32 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

So we know that Seekers are supposed to be the Chantry's elite problem-solvers; veteran witchfinders and the people who keep the Templar Order in check, the "watchers of the watchmen" if you will. However, as of late they seem to be experiencing an affliction of total incompetence, failing to fulfill both mandates of their order to such an extent that the entire Circle system now lies in shambles.

 

The most critical example of this would be the rebellion and subsequent annulment of the Kirkwall Circle. According to the timeline on the wiki, the Seekers did not begin an investigation of the events that lead up to the disaster until 9:40 Dragon, three years after the annulment had already occurred, and after the Templars and a section of the Seekers had already gone renegade. In DA2, Lelianna says that the "whole world [was] watching Kirkwall", so even before Anders blew up the Chantry, clearly it was well-known that there was a problem, and I simply cannot understand why things were allowed to spiral out of control* in the presence of an organization who's primary directive is to intercept and prevent such disasters from occurring.

 

So what is the problem here, and how do we fix this? The Seekers are supposed to be experts of inquiry and espionage, but in practice they look like little more than Templars working above their pay grade, utilized in the manner of some blunt instrument. The Lord Seeker himself (I pray for his sake he wasn't in this position during the events of DA:2) was a bit of a grunt, not exactly the skill-set and frame of mind I'd want in charge. Is this the product of complacency, or maybe the folly of some Chantry doctrine? Was it a mistake in their recruitment methods, assuming they were drawing primarily from the Templar Order? How would you use the Inquisition to address the performance of this Organization and reform the Seekers of Truth?

[Karlone123]

I always feel like the Seekers will be assimilated into the Inquisition because of their skills.

[Mistic]

One of my favourite guesses is that the Seekers will be replaced by the Inquisition. So instead of an elite Chantry force to keep mages and Templars in check, it will be an independent organization. My reasons are that the Seekers are the nearest example to the original Inquisition, so having two of them at the same time would be overkill, and that it would allow the setting to remain more or less the same with only a very big change for future installments.

 

But yeah, the Seekers have been doing a shitty job for some time now. Maybe filling their numbers with elite Templars wasn't the right call, since Asunder saw the Lord Seeker himself putting his Templar tendencies over his main duty, that is, to serve the Divine. Still, it worked for centuries, so probably they weren't as useless in the past.
 

[azarhal]

Going by Asunder, the Chantry was a bit busy between 9:37 and 9:40.

 

Also, we know from a codex entry posted on the official DA website, that the Seekers have downsized over the year to the point of closing down training facilities in 8:99 because of lack of funding. In DotS, the a Warden-Commender mention that they send all their members attack the bloodmages at the start. There is like 30 people. I think they might have suffered from lack of members to oversee everything more than being incompetents. DotS also mention that the Templar corruption have increased in the last few years.

 

Now the question is why has the Chantry reduced the Seekers funding. Seems like someone wanted them out of the picture. Putting more templars into the group was also probably another way to deal with them.

[AresKeith]

Now the question is why has the Chantry reduced the Seekers funding. Seems like someone wanted them out of the picture. Putting more templars into the group was also probably another way to deal with them.

 

That's a good question, hopefully we get to investigate that

[Lucijenifer]

I get the feeling that dealing with the Seekers will be a part of a companion quest involving Cass.

[Basement Cat]

I get the feeling that dealing with the Seekers will be a part of a companion quest involving Cass.

Quite possible. Didn't she leave the Seekers because she didn't agree with their agenda anymore? 

[Lucijenifer]

Quite possible. Didn't she leave the Seekers because she didn't agree with their agenda anymore? 

 

Something along those lines, yes. They likely view her as a heretic or a traitor of some kind.

[Mistic]

Also, we know from a codex entry posted on the official DA website, that the Seekers have downsized over the year to the point of closing down training facilities in 8:99 because of lack of funding. In DotS, the a Warden-Commender mention that they send all their members attack the bloodmages at the start. There is like 30 people. I think they might have suffered from lack of members to oversee everything more than being incompetents. DotS also mention that the Templar corruption have increased in the last few years.

 

It's the economic crisis. It has affected Thedas too

 

Still, they had enough numbers to take part and lead Darsmuid's annulment in 9:40.

 

Something along those lines, yes. They likely view her as a heretic or a traitor of some kind.

 

Yes, according to the character profile, that's what her fellow Seekers think of her. Of course, according to DAII, she had a small band of Seekers, so maybe some of them joined her. Since Seekers are supposed to be loyal to the Divine first and foremost, the traitors should be the others, shouldn't they?

[Lucijenifer]

Yes, according to the character profile, that's what her fellow Seekers think of her. Of course, according to DAII, she had a small band of Seekers, so maybe some of them joined her. Since Seekers are supposed to be loyal to the Divine first and foremost, the traitors should be the others, shouldn't they?

 

Mhm, she likely thinks they are. So when she finally has these 'traitors' at her mercy, I suppose we'll have some impact on what she decides to do with them.

[Basement Cat]

Mhm, she likely thinks they are. So when she finally has these 'traitors' at her mercy, I suppose we'll have some impact on what she decides to do with them.

I just pictured Cassandra bashing them around the head with her shield and scolding them. That would so be her. 

[Mistic]

Mhm, she likely thinks they are. So when she finally has these 'traitors' at her mercy, I suppose we'll have some impact on what she decides to do with them.

 

That's going to be a tense moment, if it happens. Those Seekers betrayed the Divine, but depending on the playthrough, Cassandra may end up working for a non-Chantry organization whose leader could be a pagan necromancer. That would look bad on her CV.

[AresKeith]

Quite possible. Didn't she leave the Seekers because she didn't agree with their agenda anymore? 

 

She didn't really leave the Seekers, there were still some who stayed loyal like some Templars did

[The Baconer]

Going by Asunder, the Chantry was a bit busy between 9:37 and 9:40.

 

Still, Seekers should have been on the scene before it reached the bombing in 9:37. They should be anticipatory and preventive, not reactive, especially so long after the fact.

 

Now the question is why has the Chantry reduced the Seekers funding. Seems like someone wanted them out of the picture. Putting more templars into the group was also probably another way to deal with them.

 

This seems like a good point, maybe there's something more sinister at work here. My plan for dealing with Lambert should we encounter him in Inquisition would be to imprison him and denounce him as a sleeper agent of the Venatori. Perhaps that's actually closer to the truth than I might believe.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I just figured they all became a part of the Inquisition like Casandra and Leliana did.

[AresKeith]

I just figured they all became a part of the Inquisition like Casandra and Leliana did.

 

Yea, I figured the remaining Seekers and Templars (or atleast the one's that followed Cass and Leliana) all joined the Inquisition. And then we would build on top of that

[KC_Prototype]

Well, to get on Cassandra's good side, adsorb them into the Inquisition.  

[azarhal]

Still, Seekers should have been on the scene before it reached the bombing in 9:37. They should be anticipatory and preventive, not reactive, especially so long after the fact.

 

That really depends when the Seekers are called into action and how. We don't know much about how they work exactly, beside them not having to fill in paper works and their judgement being final.

 

I can see Elthina sending letter saying "everything is fine no need to send a Seeker to investigate". Also, if Lambert was already the head of the order, he probably approved of Meredith and would have discouraged his members from investigate Kirkwall.

 

I'm still wondering what Cassandra was doing between 9:37 and 9:40 though.

[Basement Cat]

That really depends when the Seekers are called into action and how. We don't know much about how they work exactly, beside them not having to fill in paper works and their judgement being final.

 

I can see Elthina sending letter saying "everything is fine no need to send a Seeker to investigate". Also, if Lambert was already the head of the order, he probably approved of Meredith and would have discouraged his members from investigate Kirkwall.

 

I'm still wondering what Cassandra was doing between 9:37 and 9:40 though.

Stabbing books? That might be why the Seekers don't do paper work, it just triggers Cassandra.

[Maria Caliban]

However, as of late they seem to be experiencing an affliction of total incompetence...

This is called PC-syndrome and it can impact any competent organization when in the sphere of influence of the PC.

A group can spend hundreds of years working efficiently, have elite, highly-trained operatives, and have handled massive responsibility in the past, yet the moment the PC approaches they go full moron. Their highly placed commanders become blind to the obvious, their efficient communication systems break down, all their elite soldiers forget how to fight, their decision making abilities grind to a halt, and any sane member of the organization will desire to quit and join the PC.

PC-syndrome has managed to destroy entire countries, planets, and galaxies.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is called PC-syndrome and it can impact any competent organization when in the sphere of influence of the PC.

A group can spend hundreds of years working efficiently, have elite, highly-trained operatives, and have handled massive responsibility in the past, yet the moment the PC approaches they go full moron. Their highly placed commanders become blind to the obvious, their efficient communication systems break down, all their elite soldiers forget how to fight, their decision making abilities grind to a halt, and any sane member of the organization will desire to quit and join the PC.

PC-syndrome has managed to destroy entire countries, planets, and galaxies.

 

Which begs the question:

 

Should the people of the land hope for a PC to come and save them, or pray that the PC dies early and never comes near?

 

I think you could have a great story in which the PC is a blatant avatar figure for outside beings, and the primary villain of the piece is game master figure who throws the land into the chaos just so that the Avatar/PC can have fun either saving the day or making it even worse.

[Xilizhra]

Which begs the question:

 

Should the people of the land hope for a PC to come and save them, or pray that the PC dies early and never comes near?

 

I think you could have a great story in which the PC is a blatant avatar figure for outside beings, and the primary villain of the piece is game master figure who throws the land into the chaos just so that the Avatar/PC can have fun either saving the day or making it even worse.

You know, it might not be the PC that causes it; rather, the PC may be the only one immune to it, and it's caused by the villain.

[Gervaise]

I used to wonder what on earth happened to the Seekers in the period leading up to Anders' bomb.   After all we know that the Divine was considering making an Exalted March on Kirkwall.   However, this may have been to appease certain people and she sent Leliana specifically to try and find out without involving the Seekers.   The problem is that they were under the control of the Divine, so if she chose not to send them in, then I imagine they would not be permitted to act independently.   So rather than accuse the Seekers of incompetence I would suggest that actually it was down to an error in judgement on the part of Justinia.  

 

The fact is, based on Lambert, if they had gone into Kirkwall in 9:37 before the bomb, would they have come to any different conclusion concerning the conduct of the Templars, their treatment of the mages or Meredith's decision to call for an Annulment?    In Act 3 there were blood mages active on the streets of Kirkwall, there was a conspiracy of Templars and mages within the Gallows and at least some of those mages were using blood magic, which would lead the Seekers to assume that the Templars had been mind controlled.   To be honest Elthina seemed the only person standing in the way of Meredith tearing the Gallows apart even before the bomb.   As I understand it, that was why Orsino was heading there to get her support once again.    The mage who gave us the message specifically says "I fear there will be blood".     Which is why, with Elthina dead, the way was clear for Meredith to call for an Annulment.      Anders guessed this much.   He wanted the Templars to react as they did and was perfectly prepared to sacrifice the Circle mages, innocent as well as corrupt, to stir things up.

 

In the aftermath, Cullen was the one left in charge.   He would have made a report, which would have included the fact that Meredith went insane and thus justified his stand against her.    However, for the most part, there would have been nothing left for the Seekers to investigate at that time.    The mages were dead or escaped.   The city had been restored to order and the Templars would therefore appear to be back in control of things.  

 

We have yet to discover why Cassandra suddenly decided to follow up but it would seem to have come after the events at the White Spire but before the peace conference.    It would seem that the Divine/Cassandra felt that Hawke might be able to make a useful contribution to this, whichever side they had supported in Kirkwall, and this was the reason for trying to track them down.

[The Baconer]

Poast

 

Yeah, I put an asterisk next to the phrase "spiral out of control" in the OP because I was going to make a note that of course I knew why, DA2 needed a conflict for the player to not-really-solve.

 

 

The fact is, based on Lambert, if they had gone into Kirkwall in 9:37 before the bomb, would they have come to any different conclusion concerning the conduct of the Templars, their treatment of the mages or Meredith's decision to call for an Annulment?

 

It's not just about investigating the abuse of the mages necessarily, but other factors that made the Circle dysfunctional. Like, "why do the general populace and nobles hate the Templars so much, would it have anything to do with Meredith dissolving the local government?" or "Why are there so many insubordinate Templars in the Kirkwall Circle". In an ideal world, where Meredith was afraid to touch the Champion at all, they could have targeted Hawke and the known apostates that followed him/her.

 

 

In the aftermath, Cullen was the one left in charge.   He would have made a report, which would have included the fact that Meredith went insane and thus justified his stand against her.    However, for the most part, there would have been nothing left for the Seekers to investigate at that time. 

 

I emphatically disagree.