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The geth reaper code upgrade scenario was poorly written.


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#1
InvincibleHero

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What would the result of this be geth lose their collective cohesion (data transfer and decision making via consensus) and harmonious working together. They gain indivuality and free-will which is not the gift it seems to be at least for an efficiency logic-based non-organic "race".

 

So great all geth are now equal so who's in charge? Why would you have to obey them as each geth are autnomous now. Each geth can choose to do what it will other than its primary function. A navigation program might decide to spend its time downloading asexy robot pics fromt eh extranet in lieu of crunching numbers and calculating paths for ftl or relay travel. A gunnery program might decide hey pacifism its pretty cool and I do not want to hurt another sapient being. What will be done are "they" to be destroyed and replaced to have their duties carried out? The replacement may likewise be found unsuitable because of free-will. Isn't that a shame?The likeliest outcome IMO is the geth recreate the lesser geth as slaves to reliably carry out all the work. Yes so the geth that rebelled against their quarian masters would make a su-class slave of its own.

 

It was all hand-waved as geth just got better and more powerful and did things as normal. What astronomical odds that every program suddenly has free-will let alone is not confused by it and acts according the role it was defined previously without complaint. Millions and billions and there would not be failure of any kind no rebellion? Heck some geth may well think you know what it is best to kill all organics. They can think for themselves now thank you very much. So the upgrade is seamless and they all harmoniously perforn their menial functions they never chose. Yeah right i have land On Luna anyone interested? lol



#2
Excella Gionne

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Your assumption is understandable, but the endings do render your worries as irrelevant. Picking Destroy destroys them, picking Synthesis diminishes the line between Organics and Synthetics(reapers are still alive), picking Control will make the Geth seem little to no threat. Regardless of the endings, they are no threat. 



#3
Excella Gionne

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People mostly discuss Legion's ME3 personality vs his ME2 personality. There's been several debates on Legion himself and why does he differ in his opinion on the geth and what they want. Most individuals pick Destroy, and even if they do save the geth, or make peace, any ending belittles the geth. 

 

No offense, but I don't know if there's much to discuss on this topic. If you wanted to talk about the geth themselves as individuals, sure. But as something beyond the endings? Like I said, it's either they're vaporized or they're of little to no threat.

 

The quarians can always rebuild the geth, but I doubt they'd want to make such a mistake again. There will always be conflict between organics and their synthetic creations, and this is a true fact, no doubt. If we are discussing how synthetics will behave post reaper war, then your worries of free-will synthetics would not be as trifling. 



#4
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What made the Geth so cool in ME2 was how alien they were. They were completely different from organics, and even better they didn't want to become more like organics. Legion even questions the value of individuality. I was never going to pick Geth over Quarians tbh (but that's a different topic), but even still I was well annoyed with how they suddenly wanted to use Reaper technology, which they didn't want to use before, to become more like organics, which they didn't want to do before. Irritating 190.

 

Plus it's not exactly an uplifting message that we can coexist with synthetics despite our differences - just as long as the synthetics correct those differences. Although I wasn't convinced we could really coexist with the Geth regardless, but the point still stands.

 

It's kind of a moot point in a way since I picked Quarians and then Destroy, but it's not like that really makes how the Geth were handled any better. In fact, part of the reason I'm never going to pick Geth is because I'd rather not go along with the Pinocchio thing.


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#5
KaiserShep

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The geth being more effective and more intelligent individually does not preclude them from being a networked intelligence that still reach consensus as they always have. It only means that they are no longer reduced in intelligence and disoriented as their numbers decrease. Nothing in the game indicates that the geth are now going to have some sort of hierarchy just because each program is no longer just a basic VI when it's alone.


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#6
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^ Now that you've put it like that and I've gone back and looked on the wiki, maybe I misunderstood exactly what the Reaper code does to the Geth. So it's that it just enhances every program so that when they get together in a unit they're just more advanced? I was under the impression that it kind of locked them into a unit and made every cluster of programs a 'person'.

 

I think I've been bitching about this for 2 years for the wrong reason. Oops.

 

Okay. Well... Bleh, still not completely happy with how the Geth were handled, but that does remove a gripe I had for apparently no reason. Still not keen on the Geth accepting Reaper influences and seeing becoming more 'human' as advancement, but yeah...



#7
Iakus

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^ Now that you've put it like that and I've gone back and looked on the wiki, maybe I misunderstood exactly what the Reaper code does to the Geth. So it's that it just enhances every program so that when they get together in a unit they're just more advanced? I was under the impression that it kind of locked them into a unit and made every cluster of programs a 'person'.

 

I think I've been bitching about this for 2 years for the wrong reason. Oops.

 

Okay. Well... Bleh, still not completely happy with how the Geth were handled, but that does remove a gripe I had for apparently no reason. Still not keen on the Geth accepting Reaper influences and seeing becoming more 'human' as advancement, but yeah...

No, you're right.

 

Once the geth nomnom-ed on the Reaper code, they became individuals, referring to themselves as "I" 

 

Because organics don't operate in a consensus, hence it's bad... :angry:



#8
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Yeah, I actually put a little more thought into it and regardless of how it works, the effect is still the same. The geth become a race of metal 'people'. In fact I'm pretty sure when it brings it up Legion actually says something along the lines of the code making the Geth interact in a more "organic" way. So no, I was a bit quick to change my mind there.



#9
CptFalconPunch

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No, you're right.

 

Once the geth nomnom-ed on the Reaper code, they became individuals, referring to themselves as "I" 

 

Because organics don't operate in a consensus, hence it's bad... :angry:

Who says they're no longer operation in a consensus? The connection between the geth is the same.

 

The difference is, that instead of having to gather many Geth in the same area to achieve the same level of intelligence, each one, is advanced enough to be that intelligent, and more.

 

To put things in perspective, imagine us living under constant brain connection. Yeah we're individuals but we're all connected and each one of us acts as a platform, each one of us can receive and send data.

 

And the "individual" thingy in ME2 poses some problems. If all Geth weren't individuals, why did they separate? Why were the heretics created?


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#10
CptFalconPunch

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Yeah, I actually put a little more thought into it and regardless of how it works, the effect is still the same. The geth become a race of metal 'people'. In fact I'm pretty sure when it brings it up Legion actually says something along the lines of the code making the Geth interact in a more "organic" way. So no, I was a bit quick to change my mind there.

I don't know if the effects are the same, the Geth still remain in the consensus, they are all still connected. The human equivalent would be for all people to have their brains connected somehow, which is clearly far different than what we are.

 

All they really did was upgrade the code so each geth can act as a true intelligence. Not needing other geth to achieve that,



#11
ImaginaryMatter

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The problem with the "I" thing as I see it isn't one of intelligence but one of philosophy -- for lack of a better word because the Geth are computer and alien. The Geth understood the concept of an individual but they just didn't think it applied to them as they saw themselves as shattered pieces of a same, larger conscience; this is what has shaped their culture, goals, and interactions with others. By suddenly referring to the individual programs (or platforms?) as "I" it implies that they no longer have this shattered mind view but rather see themselves as something else.



#12
Oni Changas

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Long story short. Chris L. wanted the geth to be unique a stand alone and develop/evolve/upgrade in their own way. Patrick Weekes, awesome as he is, tossed that depth out the window in favor of pinnochiobots and self-contradictory Legion.
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#13
DeinonSlayer

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Point #1 from an earlier thread:

1. The geth gestalt was replaced by individuality – All that other stuff is just lazy and stupid, this is straight up offensively bad to me. This is the worst thing in the trilogy for me. Long after the sting of the endings has faded, this still keeps me up some nights. In ME2, Legion offers us a picture of what the geth are, and in short, they are awesome. They are the most interesting, most alien culture in Mass Effect. Their creator Chris E’toile said that he intentionally avoided the two big AI clichés – the geth don’t want to destroy organics, nor do they want to become organics. They don’t have individuality and they don’t want it (Legion says this specifically). They believe themselves (and all sentient races) to have rights (Legion says this specifically too.) They looked down on organic violence over ideas – they sought to understand, but not to judge (Legion basically says this). When the heretics wanted to leave, the geth let them go peacefully. When Legion discovered that the heretics had changed enough to sneak spy software onto geth servers, they were astonished. Legion makes it very clear – the geth do not value individuality, but togetherness. They know each other’s mind and they understand. They wanted to build their Dyson sphere so that no geth would ever have to be alone, so they could all communicate, all think together, and be the best they could be, and exercise their right as sentient beings to forge their own path in peace.

And then in ME3 this is all gone. Their Dyson sphere is destroyed as an afterthought and the geth get (as aforementioned, nebulously-described, goofy-ass) Reaper upgrades that confer individuality on them. What this means for all of the runtimes that don’t have platforms is never explained (does one of Legion’s 1183 runtimes become an AI and the rest just disappear, or what?) The geth get the opportunity for individuality and Legion finds it ‘beautiful… indicative of life’. They want it, after ME2 establishing specifically that they didn’t want it (“If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment”). The geth go from super inventive awesomeness to a run of the mill Pinocchio story (which EDI already had covered).

Here’s the thing: The geth already were people. They were sentient, they were capable of making moral judgments, and they had rights just like organic races do. They did not need individuality to do this. The geth consensus is not a pile of slaves pining for individuality, it is a superorganism, where individuality is not only irrelevant, but counterproductive. It is not hard to imagine why non-geth characters might not be able to grasp this – I understand why Shepard would assume the geth wanted individuality – but LEGION should not say they think the geth need an upgrade to be considered alive. It is abundantly clear that Legion thought they were alive already (and they were right to). The way it all went down with the geth, with them abandoning both their fondness for self-determination and their clever non-individuality, was lame, unimaginative garbage that missed out on a huge chance to play into Mass Effect’s organic vs synthetic themes to instead clobber them with a big, fat, unsubtle Bat of Mediocrity plus 10.

And the final straw that broke poor Sloth’s heart? After the mission, the character who delivered the moral of the story, the character who pointed out that Legion had switched to the “I” pronoun, indicating that they had finally, finally graduated from a meaningless automaton into true personhood, the character who didn’t have any problem at all with the implication that the geth hadn’t been people before the Reaper upgrades…

...was EDI.

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#14
Iakus

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Beautiful post, simply beautiful.



#15
ImaginaryMatter

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Beautiful post, simply beautiful.

 

The guy also does a great Zaeed.

 



#16
CptFalconPunch

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Point #1 from an earlier thread:

1. The geth gestalt was replaced by individuality – the geth don’t want to destroy organics, nor do they want to become organics. They don’t have individuality and they don’t want it (Legion says this specifically). They believe themselves (and all sentient races) to have rights (Legion says this specifically too.) They looked down on organic violence over ideas – they sought to understand, but not to judge (Legion basically says this). When the heretics wanted to leave, the geth let them go peacefully. When Legion discovered that the heretics had changed enough to sneak spy software onto geth servers, they were astonished. Legion makes it very clear – the geth do not value individuality, but togetherness. They know each other’s mind and they understand. They wanted to build their Dyson sphere so that no geth would ever have to be alone, so they could all communicate, all think together, and be the best they could be, and exercise their right as sentient beings to forge their own path in peace.

 

Erm, who said the Geth became organics exactly? Organics don't have all their brains connected into a server. The Geth are the same as they were before, but capable of achieving AI status ( and more ) through only 1 unit.

If Geth wanted to know each others mind and achieve understanding, I don't see how the geth reaper code would change that. They will still be together, they will still understand each other and know each other perfectly.



#17
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Who says they're no longer operation in a consensus? The connection between the geth is the same.

 

The difference is, that instead of having to gather many Geth in the same area to achieve the same level of intelligence, each one, is advanced enough to be that intelligent, and more.

 

To put things in perspective, imagine us living under constant brain connection. Yeah we're individuals but we're all connected and each one of us acts as a platform, each one of us can receive and send data.

 

And the "individual" thingy in ME2 poses some problems. If all Geth weren't individuals, why did they separate? Why were the heretics created?

 

This would be all the more reason to side with the Quarians and let the Geth die. Do you not realize how much more powerful they'd become then? If they reached consensus to wipe out organic life in the galaxy it would be easy. Remember you do not know what the Crucible does. This is the scenario the reapers were coming to prevent.



#18
Excella Gionne

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But the geth can just go into your body if they have enough processing power. :)



#19
shodiswe

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Point #1 from an earlier thread:

1. The geth gestalt was replaced by individuality – All that other stuff is just lazy and stupid, this is straight up offensively bad to me. This is the worst thing in the trilogy for me. Long after the sting of the endings has faded, this still keeps me up some nights. In ME2, Legion offers us a picture of what the geth are, and in short, they are awesome. They are the most interesting, most alien culture in Mass Effect. Their creator Chris E’toile said that he intentionally avoided the two big AI clichés – the geth don’t want to destroy organics, nor do they want to become organics. They don’t have individuality and they don’t want it (Legion says this specifically). They believe themselves (and all sentient races) to have rights (Legion says this specifically too.) They looked down on organic violence over ideas – they sought to understand, but not to judge (Legion basically says this). When the heretics wanted to leave, the geth let them go peacefully. When Legion discovered that the heretics had changed enough to sneak spy software onto geth servers, they were astonished. Legion makes it very clear – the geth do not value individuality, but togetherness. They know each other’s mind and they understand. They wanted to build their Dyson sphere so that no geth would ever have to be alone, so they could all communicate, all think together, and be the best they could be, and exercise their right as sentient beings to forge their own path in peace.

And then in ME3 this is all gone. Their Dyson sphere is destroyed as an afterthought and the geth get (as aforementioned, nebulously-described, goofy-ass) Reaper upgrades that confer individuality on them. What this means for all of the runtimes that don’t have platforms is never explained (does one of Legion’s 1183 runtimes become an AI and the rest just disappear, or what?) The geth get the opportunity for individuality and Legion finds it ‘beautiful… indicative of life’. They want it, after ME2 establishing specifically that they didn’t want it (“If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment”). The geth go from super inventive awesomeness to a run of the mill Pinocchio story (which EDI already had covered).

Here’s the thing: The geth already were people. They were sentient, they were capable of making moral judgments, and they had rights just like organic races do. They did not need individuality to do this. The geth consensus is not a pile of slaves pining for individuality, it is a superorganism, where individuality is not only irrelevant, but counterproductive. It is not hard to imagine why non-geth characters might not be able to grasp this – I understand why Shepard would assume the geth wanted individuality – but LEGION should not say they think the geth need an upgrade to be considered alive. It is abundantly clear that Legion thought they were alive already (and they were right to). The way it all went down with the geth, with them abandoning both their fondness for self-determination and their clever non-individuality, was lame, unimaginative garbage that missed out on a huge chance to play into Mass Effect’s organic vs synthetic themes to instead clobber them with a big, fat, unsubtle Bat of Mediocrity plus 10.

And the final straw that broke poor Sloth’s heart? After the mission, the character who delivered the moral of the story, the character who pointed out that Legion had switched to the “I” pronoun, indicating that they had finally, finally graduated from a meaningless automaton into true personhood, the character who didn’t have any problem at all with the implication that the geth hadn’t been people before the Reaper upgrades…

...was EDI.


EDI was never like the Geth, EDI was always kind of dismissive of Legion. She never approved of their "social" structure, or habits tbh. She kind of regarded them in the same way as Raegan regarded Communists. She wasn't a fan of all that excessive networking.
When she comments on them finding themselves and seeing their own individual worth, she's like Reagan expressing delight at hearing the confession of a converted communist.

The Geth's extreme networking developed out of necessity due to programming limitations that could only be overcome by networking or extremely powerful hardware.
They will still be able to network after the upgrades but it wont be a necessity, they payoffs won't be the same as before.

The Old Geth and EDI represented two different kinds of AI's, and EDI's belief was that she was superior in every way, the Geth on the other hand considered the benefits from networking a strength. Until the Geth-Quarian war showwed that it made them vulnerable. 1-0 to EDI.
Still, EDI isn't network free, her platform is using networking to enhance the platforms capabilities, but it is capable of sustaining sentience and functionality even without the network.

EDI belvies she's one entity. The old Geth belive they are many minds forming a single Geth Entity.
The New Geth, have found their capability to operate on their own, but the question is. Will they stay unified? Will they start breakign up into different factions? or even individuals who just walk away finding meaning and adventure elsewhere?

Does it really matter? Organics are just as crazy and unpredictable, even more so, and they are constantly at war or trying to kill or steal or manipulate each other.

#20
Dubozz

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Five minutes after the beginning of the game

- Liara: "I've discovered a plan for a prothean device, one that could wipe out the reapers"

So the whole game i was like "whatever, plot is not a big deal in this game anymore"


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#21
KaiserShep

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The plot kinda took a weird turn when Shepard up and decided to tell the Council that the reapers were coming at the end of ME1.

 

Anderson: Shepard, aren't the reapers trapped in dark space now?

[Shepard waves script]

 

Shepard: Read ahead. There's a big ass invasion in the end.


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#22
CptFalconPunch

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This would be all the more reason to side with the Quarians and let the Geth die. Do you not realize how much more powerful they'd become then? If they reached consensus to wipe out organic life in the galaxy it would be easy. Remember you do not know what the Crucible does. This is the scenario the reapers were coming to prevent.

If you believe so there is the OPTION not to upload the reaper code. I don't see the game doing anything wrong here.

 

And lets just say I don't believe it, the Geth may be powerful, but really not powerful enough to wipe out all organics. And there are no signs that they want to wipe every organic out. As legion said, they didn't care about it.

 

The fact that the reapers were coming to prevent a hypothetical sccenario doesn't make it true. 

 

Just look, there is a mass effect 4 coming and things are going pretty well!  :wizard:



#23
Barquiel

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Five minutes after the beginning of the game
- Liara: "I've discovered a plan for a prothean device, one that could wipe out the reapers"
So the whole game i was like "whatever, plot is not a big deal in this game anymore"


I think some kind of superweapon was unavoidable after the citadel battle in ME1 and ME2...it's more that the crucible is a completely unknown thing that people all too willingly run toward to work on. It does not ring true as something that would be universally accepted. No authentic debate is raised about the wisdom of making something that is so unknown. There's one discussion that Shepard has with Liara...and it ends with "Yes, it would be nice to know we are not kids playing around with a loaded gun." And we're not much smarter at the end of the game.

Anyway, I think most people like ME because of the characters and the setting...and not so much because of the story. Even ME1's story was rather mediocre, and it only went downhill from there. I still think the Rannoch arc was one of the better parts. The missions are alright (I especially love the geth consensus mission), choices mattering is cool and the resolutions (siding with the geth for me) are done well. But even these missions are far from perfect, of course.



#24
Steelcan

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I especially love the geth consensus mission

I would leave that mission alone in a room with Ramsay Snow given half a chance


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#25
Steelcan

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Erm, who said the Geth became organics exactly? Organics don't have all their brains connected into a server. The Geth are the same as they were before, but capable of achieving AI status ( and more ) through only 1 unit.

If Geth wanted to know each others mind and achieve understanding, I don't see how the geth reaper code would change that. They will still be together, they will still understand each other and know each other perfectly.

The geth in ME3, especially Legin, abandon their "we don't want to be an "I"" viewpoint, and instead jump aboard the "I wanna ba real boy" train, and this is different from their ME2 characterization