201 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

@Ferettinabun

 

There are more reasons than what you listed to kill the Architect. For example, in his backstory you learn he tried to turn everyone into Darkspawn hybrids as a means of co-existence even though millions would die from the taint. Here's what I posted on an old thread on the very same subject.

 

 

At first glance this seems like a hard decision but with deep thinking it isn't. You have to kill the architect. Why?

 

1. Peaceful co-existence between humans, elves, etc. and darkspawn isn't really possible.

2. Thinking darkspawn so far have proven to be a very bad thing.

3. The Architect has done or tried to do things that put Loghain to shame.

4. The Architect is incompetent.

 

 

The explanation for "1" revolves around the fact that darkspawn have to abduct another species to use for brood mothers to reproduce. Not a good thing. Also, can you picture darkspawn that are practically zombies becoming part of society?

 

The reasoning behind "2" is that thinking darkspawn have proven to be huge threats in small numbers despite not fighting during a blight. When against others, they are far more dangerous than the mindless darkspawn were. Thinking darkspawn have also "reacted poorly" to thinking for themselves as the Architect mildly put it. The main antagonist of Awakening, the Brood Mother, is the best example. Becoming aware of what she was drove her mad. Not surprising. Now imagine all darkspawn gaining this awareness. It's pretty scary.

 

"3" is because the Architect has done things like brutal experiments and trying to turn all people into darkspawn hybrids that would kill millions because of the taint death ratio all for the "greater good." For him no price is too high for his cause and that makes him far too dangerous.

 

"4" is valid because the Architect may have arguably noble goals but bungles the job quite often. He caused the 5th blight after all because of an "oops." Can you trust him to keep fiddling with the minds of darkspawn; especially since some have gone crazy and/or turned other darkspawn to their violent cause?

[Jaison1986]

That's an unresonable argument. I spared Loghain and killed the Architect. Why? Loghain is just an single man, and when you force him to take your side there is not much he can do, especially with his own daughter, the queen, fully supporting you. But what about the architect? He can wipe out the darkspawn and replace them with his own custom army. And then he can absolutely do whatever he wants, and then he would have the power to act on whatever he decides. You have no control over that. That's why the architect is an risk infinitely higher then Loghain.

[Elhanan]

I kill him most of the time, and spare him on occasion; depends on the Warden. I play my Mages as they have Clairvoyance (ie; use the foreknowledge gained from previous campaigns), and select what is the best choice for that PC.

No vote for me.

[gottaloveme]

@caradoc2000

 

Gangnam Style huh? no emoticon for pulling my hair out.

[DrBlingzle]

Please enlighten me, but isn't the Architect one of the tevinter mages that corrupted the golden city and became one of the first darkspawn?

Edit: Its been awhile since I've played both origins & awakening

I dont think so. If I remember correctly he's just a rare "mutated" hurlocks emissary who is unaware of why he doesn't hear the "song" (as far we know anyway).

[Ferretinabun]

@congokong

 

1. Peaceful co-existence between humans, elves, etc. and darkspawn isn't really possible.

 

I see that as a conclusion without any premises. True, Darkspawn do abduct and violate others to reproduce. So a simple solution would be for the Darkspawn to agree not to do that. It would ultimately mean the extinction of the Darkspawn as a species, true, but perhaps a truly sentient, reasonable Darkspawn would understand this and willingly agree to it.

 

2. Thinking darkspawn so far have proven to be a very bad thing.

 

During Awakening we enounter several intelligent Darspawn, but not all of them are antagonistic. The Architect is, of course, ambiguous. There is also the messenger at the end who seems rather helpful. I agree the Mother went mad, but judging a race of individuals (even a potential one) on your encounter with a few of them is flawed reasoning.

 

3. The Architect has done or tried to do things that put Loghain to shame.

 

In as far as his experiments go, yes, he's guilty there. But it seems like the work of an autistic child who just doesn't 'get' what he is doing is wrong. The solution is to educate him to empathise with others. He seems willing (proactive, indeed) to learn the ways of others. I don't think he's a lost cause there. And as for wanting to infect everyone with the Darkspawn taint, is that in Awakenings? Because if it is, I totally missed that. Isn't he just trying to acquire the Wardens' resistance to the taint to spread to the Darkspawn?

 

4. The Architect is incompetent.

 

Hard to argue with this point. The Architect has bungled. More than once. And with serious consequences. But I think it's been largely down to naivety. And crucially, the alliance you can forge with him might help alleviate that. Now that he's made contact, he might benefit from the guidance and advice of the other races.

[congokong]

@Ferretinabun

 

 

1. No species is going to let themselves go extinct so they don't have to harm others. Survival instincts will take precedent.

 

2.  I said intelligent darkspawn have proven to be a bad thing so far. Overall that's true. It only takes a few bad apples to cause monstrous damage apparently. It's also evidently cruel to give them awareness with examples like the Brood Mother. i can't imagine how I'd react waking up looking like that. Even your shining examples of intelligent darkspawn (the Architect, the messenger) are not  "good people."

 

3. It happens before DA:O in The Calling.

 

4. Ugh, this rehabilitation mentality is so tiresome.

[Ferretinabun]

@congoking

 

1) I think that's yet to be established. The Darkspawn's method of reproduction is rather unique. I'm sure that a thinking Darkspawn would at least be able to see the harm in it. We really don't know Darkspawn attitudes to reproduction and child-rearing. It's not like they have sex, and they don't really strike me as having many maternal/paternal instincts.

 

2) The question of whether the Darkspawn would want sentience (or whether 'inflicting' it on them is actively cruel) is a good one. But I simply don't think that's the Warden's call to make. Let the Darkspawn work that out for themselves.

 

3) Fair enough. But personally, I'm not taking anything outside of the games as canon. 

 

4) That's very cynical. It seems a key component of the Architect's personality that he is trying. He wants to learn, to get it right.

[congokong]

1. They continue to breed; intelligent or not. That's evidence enough that they are willing to harm other races to preserve their own. That's what makes the Architect so dangerous. He's willing to do whatever it takes to other species to "help" his people.

 

2. It became the Wardens call when the decision falls into their lap whether to kill the Architect. Besides, who is more qualified to judge the Architect than the Hero of Ferelden, a Grey Warden who has had many encounters with various darkspawn?

 

3. Even if you don't want it to be canon so it doesn't weaken your rebuttal it still is canon.

 

4. Cynical? Whatever. It's a monstrous example of negligence which can be a criminal offense, and would be were this real.

[congokong]

Please enlighten me, but isn't the Architect one of the tevinter mages that corrupted the golden city and became one of the first darkspawn?

 

Edit: Its been awhile since I've played both origins & awakening

Spoiler

That's Corypheus from the Legacy DLC in Dragon Age 2.

[KaiserShep]

I vote kill it. The messenger meets the same fate, because all darkspawn are a cancer that must be purged, regardless of their intentions.

[Ferretinabun]

@congoking

 

1) Do we know of a specific example of a thinking Darkspawn who has abducted a member of an outside race to be transformed into a Darkspawn?

 

2) The Grey Wardens are experienced at killing them. That doesn't mean they understand them enough to be their judge, jury and executioner.

 

3) If so, then we can simply add this to the list of offenses the Architect needs educating on Why It's A Bad Idea. Granted this list is long, but I think he deserves the chance. He seems willing to listen, which is the most important step.

 

4) Or it could be the greatest opportunity in the fight against the Blights - a state of peace with the Darkspawn. If that is possible, then I don't see how extermination is more moral.

[congokong]

1. What do you think a Brood Mother (the main antagonist of Awakening for example) does? Where do you think "The Children" came from?

http://dragonage.wik...ki/The_Children

2. Again, the decision fell into the Warden's lap. Who else is going to judge?

3. Again with the rehabilitation mentality...

4. I direct you back to my OP on this subject.

[TEWR]

My Dwarf Noble spared him. Thus far, his solution to awaken the Darkspawn seems in fact largely different from his original desire of Ghouling the entire population of Thedas. Seems that through study of the Taint he discovered it was a bit... unnecessary. Originally, he thought giving Darkspawn blood to everyone in Thedas was a good idea (ha!) but now he's going to give Warden blood to the Darkspawn.

 

Part of the problem was how his attempt to liberate the broodmothers backfired spectacularly. The Mother wasn't a Darkspawn, but a Ghoul. And the song was the only thing that kept her from realizing what she'd become: a monster. Without it, she had to live knowing that she was no longer human and it drove her insane. With that she was able to influence other Awakened Darkspawn who questioned their new state.

 

People who kill the Architect don't really seem to realize that we don't know what will happen when the last two Old Gods are killed in a Blight. The Song is the result of the Old Gods calling to the Darkspawn. Without that, the Darkspawn (theoretically) could Awaken on their own without the slightest clue as to what's going on.

 

Could actually be dangerous.

 

At least through this method, the Architect can work towards helping them understand. And peace between the two races doesn't necessarily mean they need to live side-by-side. The Darkspawn don't require food to live as it sustains them, can live for hundreds or even housands of years (assuming they're not immortal), and have regenerative capabilities. They could just isolate themselves.

 

The Messenger is indicative of how the Darkspawn can be good people. Of course, the Taint is problematic, but remember that Armaas was guaranteed protection from the Taint (and he's not a ghoul), which says that the Architect has something that could help protect the people of Thedas without being Tainted as a result.

 

As for congokong's response... well, yes there will be some overlap between some players, but not everyone. Faerunner is a person who always kills Loghain yet as she just said she spares the Architect. And so what? Are people not allowed to make their own decisions without being maligned for it?

 

Spared him. I thought he would help against the Mother and that I could talk to him after the battle to make the final decision. Then he was no help and the credits rolled immediately after the final cutscene. *sigh*

 

You can get a powerful spell at your disposal from siding with him.

[TEWR]

1. What do you think a Brood Mother (the main antagonist of Awakening for example) does? Where do you think "The Children" came from?

http://dragonage.wik...ki/The_Children

2. Again, the decision fell into the Warden's lap. Who else is going to judge?

3. Again with the rehabilitation mentality...

4. I direct you back to my OP on this subject.

 

There's no evidence that the Mother was someone the Architect kidnapped, made a broodmother, and then awakened. Literally, none. All that's known is that she was a broodmother the Architect awakened at some point in time. Whether she was like that before the Architect came upon her or not is unknown.

[congokong]

There's no evidence that the Mother was someone the Architect kidnapped, made a broodmother, and then awakened. Literally, none. All that's known is that she was a broodmother the Architect awakened at some point in time. Whether she was like that before the Architect came upon her or not is unknown.

 

If you're going to chime in, at least understand what we're discussing. The question was if intelligent darkspawn have kidnapped people to reproduce. They have as is evident by The Children.

 

As for congokong's response... well, yes there will be some overlap between some players, but not everyone. Faerunner is a person who always kills Loghain yet as she just said she spares the Architect. And so what? Are people not allowed to make their own decisions without being maligned for it?

 

 

Again, pay attention if you're going to chime in. We're not discussing if we're "allowed" to make our own decisions. We're discussing if sparing the Architect is the right thing to do from a logical/moral perspective.

[TEWR]

If you're going to chime in, at least understand what we're discussing. The question was if intelligent darkspawn have kidnapped people to reproduce. They have as is evident by The Children.

 

 

Again, pay attention if you're going to chime in. We're not discussing if we're "allowed" to make our own decisions. We're discussing if sparing the Architect is the right thing to do from a logical/moral perspective.

 

Eh, the Children are the progeny of the Mother in her Awakened state, and again we don't know whether she was the result of the Architect kidnapping her and broodmothering her or not (only that she was a broodmother he Awakened). That's not really intelligent darkspawn kidnapping people to reproduce.

 

You want a better example, look towards Kal-Hirol where intelligent Darkspawn kidnapped a dwarven unit of Legion of the Dead members and made the women into broodmothers. That's more in line with what you're arguing then the Children are, since the latter are an abnormality born from an Awakened broodmother

 

Sure, but it seemed like the way you were phrasing your "Loghain defenders do this as well!" post was saying "YOU'RE ALL WRONG." without anything more then that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Aiding the darkspawn defeats the purpose of  your whole entire journey in origins. The whole reason for so much corruption in the world is because of the darkspawn. You might as well shoot yourself in the head if you think negotiating with talking darkspawn is a good idea. It really is mindblowing to me to see people wanting peace with them.

 

Actually, no it doesn't, mainly because my purpose was not some visceral, emotionally-charged, "it's us or them"-nonsense.

 

The Darkspawn are a problem to be dealt with. Fighting them in a Blight is one way to deal with said problem. Allowing the likes of Avernus or the Architect to do research on the Taint so people can understand it better and turn knowledge into intelligence on the root of the problem is another. That's why I let him live.

[Dabrikishaw]

Spare him.

[Orberon]

My Warden sparred him but to this day I still regret it! Then again Awakenings as a whole saw my Warden change alot from the humble beginnings of Origins I think.

 

I even let Amaranthine burn because I was convinced it was too late to save the city, so many bad choices I made with my canon character towards the end and I was always trying to do the right thing but by the end it was like, my mage was lost! But I'll never change it because thats what I choose, I feel like I'll be cheating if I said I wanted to go back and redo it again. Unless it was with a alt of course!

 

I just hope to see my warden in DA:I just to see how he's getting on as he hasn't been seen since Witch Hunt.

[DrBlingzle]

I've updated the results in the OP.