When one's race very existence poisons and sickens the land and the other races around them there really isn't room for compromise. Especially not considering what darkspawn do to reproduce.
I'm given to understand that unless the darkspawn die in battle they're essentially immortal. Which means that the reproduction question is less important than all that.
Darkspawn have regenerative properties. The Architect talks of this in The Calling about Bergan, and he himself loses an arm but shows up with one later. The Ogre's codex entry talks of how Wardens urge people to ensure they're definitely dead because they can regenerate.
So reproduction isn't all that necessary to their survival.
I'm given to understand that unless the darkspawn die in battle they're essentially immortal. Which means that the reproduction question is less important than all that.
True but that being how they reproduce is just one more issue to me points to the unlikelihood of a peaceful coexistence.
True but that being how they reproduce is just one more issue to me points to the unlikelihood of a peaceful coexistence.
Fair enough. And as you say, even if I didn't concede this one it's not like there aren't plenty of things about this that should set off alarm bells in our heads.
Fair enough. And as you say, even if I didn't concede this one it's not like there aren't plenty of things about this that should set off alarm bells in our heads.
Yep.
I'm usually all for meeting in the middle but the darkspawn...there's not a real middle there.
Spare. Aside from the vital factor of his not attacking me at the time, he's too much of a potential ally; there's plenty the Grey Wardens could accomplish by working together with him. Additionally, we know that his goal changed once already; he's clearly open to negotiation and compromise.
I always kill him during playthroughs, because no matter how good his intentions are, he's a darkspawn and killing darkspawn is my job. I will be using the keep to spare him in one world state, though.
Reading The Calling convinced me this was the right thing to do, as did learning that he was responsible for causing the blight. He also might have learned the location of other old gods from Bregan as well and decide to try again because he's going to change one of the variables and that should make the difference.
I think his bad luck in predicting outcomes makes him a poor choice to count on as a research tool.
Kill. His track record of taking homicidal darkspawn and freeing them into... intelligent homicidal darkspawn who had free will and merrily killed anyway was not promising for long-term coexistence, and he certainly had enough reason to lie about his long-term intentions -- manipulating you into killing the Mother and sparing him while he's away, and once the Mother is dead and he's safely away from you, who knows what he'd try? "I do not wish to rule"... yet, you have disciples commanding an army on your behalf and apparently following your plan rather than acting independently while you move on giving other darkspawns the red pills.
Hell, for all I know, the whole "run back to your keep and save it" advice from the Messenger might not have been out of concern for the keep itself, but so that the darkspawn would overrun Amaranthine and spread the Taint, and for the humans to be greatly weakened in Amaranthine overall. If the Architect had an inkling of strategy, he'd be aware that in the long run fortresses are difficult to maintain without a population base to support them -- food, armaments, recruits, whatever. Darkspawn power++, human power--.
I also figured that this was consistent with killing Zevran and Loghain; I could overlook lesser offenses, but attempting to kill me was not forgivable. If he'd wanted to convince me that he wanted an alliance with the Wardens, he shouldn't have tried to kill the Warden-Commander at the end of his attempted escape from the Silverite mine; he *could* have tried his magic again to cause sleep or to collapse the entrance before I could escape, and then pointedly invite me over for polite discussion over tea and crumpets, but instead he chose to send Dragon Thralls to kill me and mine, and then walk away when the thralls failed.
(edit: addition below)
Another reason to be suspicious of him when you finally have the chance to make a decision:
He's almost alone, accompanied only by his non-stealthy ex-Warden ghoulfriend, deep inside the Mother's lair. There are *very* few ways for him to have gotten there, he's made no attempt at all to disguise himself, and you've already encountered and had to kill numerous on-full-alert forces on your own path to catch up. That screams of a possibility that he's there w/ the Mother's permission to parley (perhaps he thinks he can restore her to the Calling and end the war?) and not even there to kill her -- you'd expect that he'd have brought more help and left a swath of either sleeping or dead defenders were that the case. Then you catch up to him, he sizes up the odds and understands that you're there for the Mother (since you had little reason to expect him to be there at the same time), and decides that you can do the dirty work for him while he escapes to rejoin his forces; if you comply, the worst that can happen is that the Mother kills you all in which case he's probably better off having waited for backup and for you to have caused some damage anyway.
Spared him.
My Warden's judgement was severely impaired by the choice between Sacrifice and the Dark Ritual back in DA:O. He chose the Dark Ritual, despite feeling in his gut that it risked another Blight further down the line, should the Old God Baby ever be found by Darkspawn. He just didn't want to die.
When the Architect appeared and offered the possibility of ending all Blights, ever, my Warden accepted the offer. Despite the risks, he wanted to undo his earlier mistake.
And maybe, by trying to undo one mistake, he just made another.
(I like that about my Warden. I deliberately roleplayed him to be flawed. I'm planning something similar with DA2&3.)
The Seeker doesn't display all that much intelligence; he just displays more than Velanna. I'll also note that he shows less intelligence than Oghren, given that Oghren sees that something's wrong with the staged battle scene at a glance. This automatically makes The Seeker at best the second-cleverest creature in the series, and the more companions are able to see through it (I don't remember how many that is off-hand) the more places he drops.
As to the Architect trying to make use of the Old Gods, I'll grant that he could. But it runs counter to his claimed goals. He doesn't want to wipe out the non-awakened darkspawn. He wants them to Awaken. He might have some other ideas that a Blight could help, but I don't think there's any evidence of this yet in either the games or the books. He could also destroy the Old Gods with this knowledge; he clears the path to the Old Gods, and a Warden kills them. If this does result in a Blight somehow (which it shouldn't, since Wardens don't seem to spread the Taint) it'll be a very short one. (Though as TEWR warns, there being no Old Gods might also instantly Awaken all the darkspawn, and we don't know what happens then. I will note that this possibility would be in line with the Architect's goals, though the Wardens might not find that it helps theirs.)
Nor do we see any evidence that only Hurlocks can become disciples. Even if there are no non-Hurlock disciples (and I could almost swear we encounter a genlock disciple somewhere in Drake's Fall, not to mention the Broodmother disciple) that's not evidence that they can't become disciples. The fact that we don't see something in-game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Heck, The Seeker could be a shriek for all we know.
I spared him. A race of generic monsters developing true intelligence? How's that not interesting? And an enemy that's intelligent is an enemy with whom peace might be made. It'll probably backfire horribly, but I feel like I ought to try.
Nor do we see any evidence that only Hurlocks can become disciples. Even if there are no non-Hurlock disciples (and I could almost swear we encounter a genlock disciple somewhere in Drake's Fall, not to mention the Broodmother disciple) that's not evidence that they can't become disciples. The fact that we don't see something in-game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Heck, The Seeker could be a shriek for all we know.
I feel like if it was impossible to make non-hurlocks into disciples, it would've been directly mentioned. It seems important. "My goal is to free my brethren from the Call -- well, at least a third of them". Of course, the Architect isn't going to be fond of telling you this (he pointedly does not mention previous plans that involve the death of most of humanity[/elvenity/dwarfity]), but I feel like it'd at least come up in a codex "Architect's Log" or maybe be pointed out by a companion.
Origins is no stranger to having the game not quite match the reality, after all. No Qunari mercenary has horns, no Tranquil has the brand on their forehead... I don't know how easy it'd be to convert a genlock model or anything and the hurlocks are basically the "face" of the darkspawn, or if they just want the darkspawn to look... slightly human-y so as to appear more like an actual race for these purposes.
I now really want to see an Ogre disciple, however.
I now really want to see an Ogre disciple, however.
You're not the only one. I've been advocating an Ogre Emissary Disciple for years.
I did both. I've not got one single canon playthrough, I consider all my imported playthroughs to be canon. However, I "spared" him most of the time.
I actually spared the Architect every time but one when I played awakening. As much as I hate the Architect and what he did, I understand why he did it. He wants to stop the blights as much as everyone else does.
If anyone says I think that because I didn't read 'The Calling' your wrong. I read it and the Architect pissed me off even more after I read it but I also understand he's a darkspawn. He doesn't have the same moral compass as people do and he has a hard time understanding our way of thinking.
So there's my vote.
I actually spared the Architect every time but one when I played awakening. As much as I hate the Architect and what he did, I understand why he did it. He wants to stop the blights as much as everyone else does.
If anyone says I think that because I didn't read 'The Calling' your wrong. I read it and the Architect pissed me off even more after I read it but I also understand he's a darkspawn. He doesn't have the same moral compass as people do and he has a hard time understanding our way of thinking.
So there's my vote.
Well, if you're not meta-gaming when you role-play your warden's decision it's very conceivable they'd side with him in a weak moment of sympathy. As I've already said though, through a meta-gaming perspective he has to die regardless of his potentially noble intentions considering his ruthless nature in achieving his goal. That being said, I always felt some guilt killing him regardless; especially when he doesn't respond angrily but rather wearily when you refuse to help him.
He has to die because of meta-gaming? Isn't that backwards? Metagame wise I can see killing him and Utha because you want their loot, but killing him always seemed easier to justify from someone who wanted to role-play.
I had been wondering all along if the darkspawn really had free will, or even had enough intelligence in the first place for that to be relevant as opposed to just being mindless monsters, so I was intrigued to discover one that appeared to have both and didn't seem to want to kill everything in sight. I let him live, though I was intending to make sure he didn't start experimenting on live Grey Wardens or otherwise doing anything violent or dangerous if he'd stayed around, but then the Mother just made him disappear somehow.
Has BW ever said whether we should expect to see him turn back up again? (I haven't played DA2 yet but will probably start it sometime this week - I'm just wrapping up with the DAO DLCs.)
He has to die because of meta-gaming? Isn't that backwards? Metagame wise I can see killing him and Utha because you want their loot, but killing him always seemed easier to justify from someone who wanted to role-play.
Yes, since you learn the worst of what he did through meta-gaming such as his actions in The Calling. You'll also never learn that he started the last blight if you kill him.
Oh that. I don't really call that metagaming, but then again I don't really whine about it when it comes up in discussions about the plot either so what do I know? I object to the ideas that he has to die because you know this stuff. I always kill Loghain but spare the Architect.
Any decision that's at least partially made based on knowledge the player knows but the pc doesn't is a meta-gamed decision. Many who kill the Architect will use the knowledge of his past actions not revealed at that point in-game as a factor.
For what the Architect has done and what he easily could do I felt killing him was the far better option despite his good intentions. Loghain is in a similar but even less sympathetic situation because his "good intentions" were based on many false premises including one of vanity that only he could save Ferelden. They're both similar in that their efforts only succeeded in mucking things up further.
Well I can say that my sparing of the architect has no 'metagameing' in it. I spared him my first time and only killed him once for the trophy my second time through.
By the way Flying squirrel I was the same way. I was fully about to yell at the architect for his stupid mistake but then the 'mother' decided to interrupt.
I spared him the first time too on my blind playthrough with no reloads if an outcome sucked. I was forced to put down Sigrun and Justice. My pc was rather evil and siding with him seemed like the evil thing to do.
i killed him for the reason that your a grey warden and he caused the fifth blight.
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