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[x Raizer x]

I know all you Cullen fans are going to love this one, so before I get into detail, let me say first that I do respect Cullen, and I actually enjoy him being back.

As the leader of the military arm of my Inquisition, though, seems sketchy.  He does look like he is far more confident than he did earlier in the series, and helping overthrow and rebuild the Templars in Kirkwall definitely lends credibility to his leadership capability.

But don't be too quick to forget:  He was the second in command of Kirkwall's Templars for a long time.  He had power, pull, and position.  And assets.  Yet he turned a blind eye to Meredith's atrocities for a while.  In fact, when people accused the Templars of their wrong-doings, he defended them.

 

He could have contacted the Divine.  Or even the Seekers.  Somebody.  Anybody.  But instead he was not only part of that system, but proudly voiced his defense of the atrocities.

Most people say its because he was part of a powerful system, and its hard to direct change when you are in that kind of situation.  But that is a load of bullocks.  Cullen went along with it because, at the time, he thought it was correct.  He seen, as he said himself, first hand confirmation that mages are very dangerous and should be controlled.  He seen Uldred and his madness.  He saw a tower full of people he grew to know turn into demons and burn.  So while his jadedness against Mages can be understood, it does't discredit his lack of morality.  As a person of sound values and morals, no matter what the circumstance, would stand true to those morals, and would be able to know when things are getting too far.

 

Cullen only chose to "do something" when the situation more or less already went into disaster.  Far too late.  A real leader would have prevented this from occurring.

He may be different now.  He may be respectable, of sound morality, and a good asset.  But is this change permanent?  Or is it merely rhetorical of the situation around him?  Who is to say in peace time he won't sink back into his old ways?

[Ailith Tycane]

Then you don't have to agree with him. He's not the only adviser who's going to be masking suggestions to you. You could side with Leliana's approach to a problem instead for example. 

[x Raizer x]

Then you don't have to agree with him. He's not the only adviser who's going to be masking suggestions to you. You could side with Leliana's approach to a problem instead for example. 

 

I am pretty cunning and intuitive, so if I feel like he is being loyal and honest then we might get along.  But I have always had a soft spot for espionage (and Leliana as well!) so I tend to see myself going that route a lot.  I do in other games.

In Civilization my nation knows everything, about everyone.  And I win by causing civil wars all over the world, then I clean up or reunite the mess under my banner.

If I can do similar things in Inquisition, Oh Dear.  Lol.

[Ailith Tycane]

I will probably do the same thing honestly. I'll only try to flex my military muscles for the sake of intimidating or overthrowing people who I feel can't be intimidated or overthrown any other way. But, most people have more motivations that can be exploited and don't require complete annihilation, so I hope that's an option. 

[x Raizer x]

They said the game play footage where Leliana was being tortured would occur depending on in game actions.  That almost makes me wonder if sometimes going to espionage route can backfire.  Even if it seems the best option, perhaps.

If I end up getting Leliana killed, I'd feel terrible.  (Spoilers) Almost as terrible as I felt when I couldn't talk Mordin out of doing what he did in Mass Effect 3.  While I agreed with what he wanted to do completely, I just wished there could have been another way.  Actually shed some tears during that scene.

[MisterJB]

What were Meredith's attrocities?

 

I remember Ser Alrik comitting attrocities and illegalities but, as Cullen said, where was the evidence to acuse him?

[x Raizer x]

What were Meredith's attrocities?

 

I remember Ser Alrik comitting attrocities and illegalities but, as Cullen said, where was the evidence to acuse him?

 

More mages were being made tranquil then ever before, Meredith utilized political pull and used the Templars for "intimidation":  There were countless reports and conversations of mages being beaten, and even one conversation can be overheard in the Gallows of a mage being raped, more or less, in his quarters on multiple occasions.

There were also Templars who were abusing their power as well that Meredith didn't seem to care about.  In fact, she seeked to employ Templars who had negative views of mages, as noted by Cullen's Dragon Age 2 codex entry.

She did a good job at trying to cover it up, but the game more or less lets you know.  (:

[Xilizhra]

You don't have to, and there's not much of a reason to to begin with. Luckily, he'll be under your control, so I don't think you'll need to worry about him too much.

 

"Don't worry, Jim. He's our snake now."

[MisterJB]

More mages were being made tranquil then ever before, Meredith utilized political pull and used the Templars for "intimidation":  There were countless reports and conversations of mages being beaten, and even one conversation can be overheard in the Gallows of a mage being raped, more or less, in his quarters on multiple occasions.

It's obvious that ambient dialogue aren't meant to be general knowledge. He wear them because we're the player but nobody else does.

As for the rest, why should we assume that these are "attrocities"? The Circle of Kirkwall was breeding blood mages and Abominations like a broodmother breeds Darkspawn therefore, what makes you think some Tranquilities or beatings weren't justified? Cullen himself admits Meredith wasn't an easy taskmaster, but guarding mages is no easy task.

 

There were, of course, ilegalities ocurring but they were either secret (Alrik's ilegal Rites of Tranquility and Karras's nigthly visits to Alain) or general knowledge (Meredith's takeover). In both of these cases, just what is Cullen supposed to do?

 

[Ailith Tycane]

Meredith was definitely an extremist but that was her role in DA2, just like it was Orsino's role to be the opposite extreme. 

 

Meredith was definitely a hard ass, probably more than she needed to be, but I kind of feel sorry for what happened to her with the red lyrium. It made her insane and made her anti mage prejudices about 1000 times worse.

 

I have a harder time feeling bad for Orsino in a way because he was aware of the activities of the serial killer in Kirkwall who ends up murdering your mother and did nothing about it, so there was a more personal element to that one.

 

Meredith represented the dangers of biased hatred of mages can have, and Orsino represented the dangers of unchecked and irresponsible magical practices.

[Xilizhra]

It's obvious that ambient dialogue aren't meant to be general knowledge. He wear them because we're the player but nobody else does.

As for the rest, why should we assume that these are "attrocities"? The Circle of Kirkwall was breeding blood mages and Abominations like a broodmother breeds Darkspawn therefore, what makes you think some Tranquilities or beatings weren't justified? Cullen himself admits Meredith wasn't an easy taskmaster, but guarding mages is no easy task.

 

There were, of course, ilegalities ocurring but they were either secret (Alrik's ilegal Rites of Tranquility and Karras's nigthly visits to Alain) or general knowledge (Meredith's takeover). In both of these cases, just what is Cullen supposed to do?

Legally? Not much. But Cullen's legal compass isn't the topic of the thread.

 

Meredith was definitely an extremist but that was her role in DA2, just like it was Orsino's role to be the opposite extreme. 

 

Meredith was definitely a hard ass, probably more than she needed to be, but I kind of feel sorry for what happened to her with the red lyrium. It made her insane and made her anti mage prejudices about 1000 times worse.

 

I have a harder time feeling bad for Orsino in a way because he was aware of the activities of the serial killer in Kirkwall who ends up murdering your mother and did nothing about it, so there was a more personal element to that one.

 

Meredith represented the dangers of biased hatred of mages can have, and Orsino represented the dangers of unchecked and irresponsible magical practices.

Orsino didn't actually practice anything forbidden until the end; his only crime was trying to prevent the Annulment. Including his hiding Quentin.

[In Exile]

To me, Cullen came off as stupidly loyal to a cause despite blatant and clear failings of his superior. He insisted in believing in his appointed leader at all times, defended her from public criticism, and until she went completely stone cold insane, backed her every play. 

 

That sounds like an ideal subordinate, frankly. 

[Ailith Tycane]

Orsino didn't actually practice anything forbidden until the end; his only crime was trying to prevent the Annulment. Including his hiding Quentin.

 

Orsino was aware of what Quentin was doing in Kirkwall and did nothing to stop it. I'd say that's a pretty big crime, at least morally. 

[Xilizhra]

Orsino was aware of what Quentin was doing in Kirkwall and did nothing to stop it. I'd say that's a pretty big crime, at least morally. 

I would say that it wasn't good, but I would also not call it evil because he feared that far more deaths would come if he did reveal it.

[In Exile]

I would say that it wasn't good, but I would also not call it evil because he feared that far more deaths would come if he did reveal it.

 

Quentin was a serial killer. Covering for a serial killer is pretty morally repugnant, regardless of his worry about a crackdown. And we know he was active for some time at the start of Act 1 where, while Kirkwall was far harsher than other Circles, it did not quite reach the level of human rights abuse in Act 3. 

[Ailith Tycane]

I would say that it wasn't good, but I would also not call it evil because he feared that far more deaths would come if he did reveal it.

 

And in the meantime dozens of women got murdered. 

 

The Templars reaction to Quentin was not in his control. Stopping Quentin was though and he chose not to. 

[MisterJB]

I would say that it wasn't good, but I would also not call it evil because he feared that far more deaths would come if he did reveal it.

Then Meredith's Annulment of the Circle isn't evil because she feared that far more deaths would come if the mages lived.

AH!

[In Exile]

And in the meantime dozens of women got murdered. 

 

The Templars reaction to Quentin was not in his control. Stopping Quentin was though and he chose not to. 

 

I think the worry is the templar reaction to the rest of the Circle, finding out that a mage serial killing apostate was loose. But even so, you'd think even a loon like Meredith would reward, rather than punish, mages for outing each other. Even dictatorships to that, if only to encourage reporting. 

[Xilizhra]

Then Meredith's Annulment of the Circle isn't evil because she feared that far more deaths would come if the mages lived.

AH!

Nope. Orsino failed to take an action, whereas Meredith took a destructive action. Similarly, if Cullen just didn't participate in the Annulment but didn't do anything to stop it either, I wouldn't call it good, but still not quite evil.

 

 

And in the meantime dozens of women got murdered. 

 

The Templars reaction to Quentin was not in his control. Stopping Quentin was though and he chose not to. 

How do you know that he didn't? He didn't work through the templars, but nothing says that he didn't try to deal with Quentin through some unofficial channel.

[Gannayev of Dreams]

I never really liked his character in DA:O.  He was an abject coward.  He was quite prepared to sacrifice innocent lives at the Circle Tower just so he wouldnt have to face his job.  In DA2 he was just another "tranquil first, ask questions later" type Templar with relation to mages.

 

I wish we, as the Inquisitor, had a say in who we put in charge of our military.  Our only option now if we don't like the way he does things is to simply not use him.  That wouldn't make sense for a real world organization.  I shouldn't have to forego the military option because I don't like my general, I should just find a new general. 

 

But I guess that's just the concession we must make for being given as much power as we are.

[In Exile]

I never really liked his character in DA:O.  He was an abject coward.  He was quite prepared to sacrifice innocent lives at the Circle Tower just so he wouldnt have to face his job.  In DA2 he was just another "tranquil first, ask questions later" type Templar with relation to mages.

Before being tortured for a few weeks, Cullen was pretty reasonable for a templar. Also an incredible creep, but reasonable. 

[TK514]

Nope. Orsino failed to take an action, whereas Meredith took a destructive action. Similarly, if Cullen just didn't participate in the Annulment but didn't do anything to stop it either, I wouldn't call it good, but still not quite evil.

 

 

How do you know that he didn't? He didn't work through the templars, but nothing says that he didn't try to deal with Quentin through some unofficial channel.

 

The fact that he says he didn't.  He fully admits to knowing about it, supporting it, and then pulling his support when it got to a certain point.  As he's pleading for understanding at that moment and well into 'full disclosure' mode, if he'd done anything else to stop it after pulling his support, he'd have said so.

[Lucijenifer]

I never really liked his character in DA:O.  He was an abject coward.  He was quite prepared to sacrifice innocent lives at the Circle Tower just so he wouldnt have to face his job.  In DA2 he was just another "tranquil first, ask questions later" type Templar with relation to mages.

 

I wish we, as the Inquisitor, had a say in who we put in charge of our military.  Our only option now if we don't like the way he does things is to simply not use him.  That wouldn't make sense for a real world organization.  I shouldn't have to forego the military option because I don't like my general, I should just find a new general. 

 

But I guess that's just the concession we must make for being given as much power as we are.

 

The Inquisitor isn't necessarily in charge of the Inquisition. It might be a core role, but that certainly doesn't mean that we're the top dog and we still have the Divine to answer to.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that he says he didn't.  He fully admits to knowing about it, supporting it, and then pulling his support when it got to a certain point.  As he's pleading for understanding at that moment and well into 'full disclosure' mode, if he'd done anything else to stop it after pulling his support, he'd have said so.

No he's not. He knows that asking for understanding at that point, given that Hawke's gone full evil and sided with the templars, is futile.

[Aolbain]

There is already a thread about how Cullen is the worst thing ever and the company equaliant of suicde.