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[KBomb]

Karras is first listed as "a great crony of Meredith," and Thrask also said that Meredith would consider him justified in killing all of the Starkhaven mages if they were found hiding in the caves. And Meredith did so many things wrong herself that we don't really need to blame Alrik on her.

Decimus was rumored to have burned down the circle there. He was a bloodmage and was holed up in a cave with other mages. He wasn't some poor innocent mage. Also, if the rest of the mages escape, don't they get recaptured and turned tranquil? If Meredith doesn't mind slaughtering mages, then why turn them tranquil then? Why not have the templars kill them upon recapture? A lot of what you heard about Meredith was rumor and never proven.

 

It would make sense that Cullen didn't believe half of the things said about her. It would be natural to doubt the sky is falling when you see people throwing acorns every day.

[Xilizhra]

Decimus was rumored to have burned down the circle there. He was a bloodmage and was holed up in a cave with other mages. He wasn't some poor innocent mage. Also, if the rest of the mages escape, don't they get recaptured and turned tranquil? If Meredith doesn't mind slaughtering mages, then why turn them tranquil then? Why not have the templars kill them upon recapture? A lot of what you heard about Meredith was rumor and never proven.

 

It would make sense that Cullen didn't believe half of the things said about her. It would be natural to doubt the sky is falling when you see people throwing acorns every day.

Yes, well, that's Decimus alone and not every mage. And it's probable that the lieutenant who captured them later was more moderate than Karras.

[KBomb]

Yes, well, that's Decimus alone and not every mage. And it's probable that the lieutenant who captured them later was more moderate than Karras.

If it was rumored that he burned down a circle and was in the company of other mages, it would be a probable assumption that they were his cohorts. It also doesn't matter who captured them. They were returned to Meredith's keeping and were turned tranquil instead of being executed. That doesn't sound like someone who just justifies the killing of mages for no reason. 

[GVulture]

Which you can't blame Meredith for Karras or Alrik. Maybe they flourished in her Order more than they would've in others, but that doesn't make their actions hers. We have no evidence that Karras doesn't just kill mages and then just tell his superiors that he was defending himself. We DO have evidence that Meredith thought Alrik was a nutter with his Tranquil Solution nonsense. We DON'T have evidence that ANYONE knew what Alrik was doing to his charges. He threatens Elma? quietly. He wasn't brazenly telling the other Templars what he was planning to do to her when they got back if she didn't behave.

 

Considering how strongly that Cullen feels about PROTECTING his charges, you could be dang sure he wouldn't have let that fly if he knew about it.

 

The nasty Templars got away with a lot in Meredith's Order because of all the chaos in Kirkwall and most of that chaos could be directed back to Orsino. Not Meredith.

[Xilizhra]

Which you can't blame Meredith for Karras or Alrik. Maybe they flourished in her Order more than they would've in others, but that doesn't make their actions hers. We have no evidence that Karras doesn't just kill mages and then just tell his superiors that he was defending himself. We DO have evidence that Meredith thought Alrik was a nutter with his Tranquil Solution nonsense. We DON'T have evidence that ANYONE knew what Alrik was doing to his charges. He threatens Elma? quietly. He wasn't brazenly telling the other Templars what he was planning to do to her when they got back if she didn't behave.

 

Considering how strongly that Cullen feels about PROTECTING his charges, you could be dang sure he wouldn't have let that fly if he knew about it.

 

The nasty Templars got away with a lot in Meredith's Order because of all the chaos in Kirkwall and most of that chaos could be directed back to Orsino. Not Meredith.

Alrik, maybe, because Alrik took great pains to hide from Meredith. Karras, however, did no such thing, instead being her eager crony. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Meredith doesn't approve of Karras, and a fair bit that suggests that she does. And Orsino hardly ever did anything in any case.

[thetinyevil]

Alrik, maybe, because Alrik took great pains to hide from Meredith. Karras, however, did no such thing, instead being her eager crony. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Meredith doesn't approve of Karras, and a fair bit that suggests that she does. And Orsino hardly ever did anything in any case.

Orsino really couldn't really do anything.

[Ryzaki]

If it was rumored that he burned down a circle and was in the company of other mages, it would be a probable assumption that they were his cohorts. It also doesn't matter who captured them. They were returned to Meredith's keeping and were turned tranquil instead of being executed. That doesn't sound like someone who just justifies the killing of mages for no reason. 

 

Oh god Decimus and Grace. The one time Meredith should've taken the kill them all and let the maker sort them out solution but nooooooo.

[Xilizhra]

Oh god Decimus and Grace. The one time Meredith should've taken the kill them all and let the maker sort them out solution but nooooooo.

Grace was probably possessed; she turns into an abomination in that fight.

[KBomb]

 

 

Alrik, maybe, because Alrik took great pains to hide from Meredith. Karras, however, did no such thing, instead being her eager crony. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Meredith doesn't approve of Karras, and a fair bit that suggests that she does. And Orsino hardly ever did anything in any case.

Perhaps he didn't feel the need to hide anything from her. Maybe she never ordered him to kill innocent mages. As I said, her actions prove that rumor was unfounded. Personally, Karras would have been justified killing those mages, considering they assumed Hawke and company were templars and attacked on sight, without any provocation. 

 

Jesus, my quoting keeps messing up. I apologize in advance.

[The Hierophant]

Alrik, maybe, because Alrik took great pains to hide from Meredith. Karras, however, did no such thing, instead being her eager crony. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Meredith doesn't approve of Karras, and a fair bit that suggests that she does. And Orsino hardly ever did anything in any case.

Seems unlikely. Karras threatened Alain not to speak out about his rape, which shows that Karras feared punishment under Meredith's command for his actions.

[GVulture]

Alrik, maybe, because Alrik took great pains to hide from Meredith. Karras, however, did no such thing, instead being her eager crony. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Meredith doesn't approve of Karras, and a fair bit that suggests that she does. And Orsino hardly ever did anything in any case.

There isn't any evidence that she even knows Karras exists, either. Going around and acting like a bully when your boss is a hardass and expecting people to think that your boss' reputation gives you carte blance to be a bully is one thing. Approving of the bully behavior is another. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Meredith cares just as much for the mages as Cullen she just has limits to her mercy.

[Xilizhra]

Seems unlikely. Karras threatened Alain not to speak out about his rape, which shows that Karras feared punishment under Meredith's command for his actions.

Well, for that one, but only that one that we know of.

[Xilizhra]

There isn't any evidence that she even knows Karras exists, either. Going around and acting like a bully when your boss is a hardass and expecting people to think that your boss' reputation gives you carte blance to be a bully is one thing. Approving of the bully behavior is another. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Meredith cares just as much for the mages as Cullen she just has limits to her mercy.

She does care for the mages, I won't deny that. It's just an extremely abusive form of it.

[thetinyevil]

Grace was insane. She didn't seem that way when you first met her but she was when you get to Best Served Cold. 

[thetinyevil]

Seems unlikely. Karras threatened Alain not to speak out about his rape, which shows that Karras feared punishment under Meredith's command for his actions.

Or maybe he was afraid another templar would report him to Elthina and actually make her get of her but and do her job.

[GVulture]

She does care for the mages, I won't deny that. It's just an extremely abusive form of it.

Not denying that. She knows what happens when you make allowances because of empathy. Her tiny little sister killed 70 people when she was possessed. She has an entire Tower full of mages that can happen to at any moment. Especially when the Broken Circle at Kinloch Hold showed that even mages that passed their Harrowing can be turned into abominations (with blood mage assistance).

 

But, I wouldn't credit anything her Templars do to her because they ONLY time we had direct evidence that she is going to hurt an innocent is IF you side with the Templars and she decides to carry out the Rite of Annulment to the letter of the law and take EVERY mage. Which... by that time... she has started to unravel visibly. The Chantry exploding does that.

If Meredith was as awful as everyone painted her, guess what she wouldn't have allowed? HAWKE to decide Anders' fate after he admitted fault.

 

Orsino on the other hand... admits to letting blood mages run loose to throw Meredith off balance. Admits to letting his own charges run loose to throw Meredith off balance. Admits to knowing about Quentin. Admits helping Quentin with his research. Admits to Bethany that he KNEW what Quentin was doing before Leandra was killed and did nothing. Guess what, you sow that much chaos and upset the balance of your Templar counter part instead of working with them to ensure the safety of your charges? That's what you get Orsino. That's what you get.

 

Irving grated Gregoire whenever he could, but at least he knew better than to shut off the raptor fences let Jowan escape the Tower.

 

So... yeah. Long story short. The narrative in DA II is so grey it could fight Darkspawn. Orsino was just as much at fault for the state of Kirkwall as Meredith was.

[Xilizhra]

Not denying that. She knows what happens when you make allowances because of empathy. Her tiny little sister killed 70 people when she was possessed. She has an entire Tower full of mages that can happen to at any moment. Especially when the Broken Circle at Kinloch Hold showed that even mages that passed their Harrowing can be turned into abominations (with blood mage assistance).

 

But, I wouldn't credit anything her Templars do to her because they ONLY time we had direct evidence that she is going to hurt an innocent is IF you side with the Templars and she decides to carry out the Rite of Annulment to the letter of the law and take EVERY mage. Which... by that time... she has started to unravel visibly. The Chantry exploding does that.

If Meredith was as awful as everyone painted her, guess what she wouldn't have allowed? HAWKE to decide Anders' fate after he admitted fault.

 

Orsino on the other hand... admits to letting blood mages run loose to throw Meredith off balance. Admits to letting his own charges run loose to throw Meredith off balance. Admits to knowing about Quentin. Admits helping Quentin with his research. Admits to Bethany that he KNEW what Quentin was doing before Leandra was killed and did nothing. Guess what, you sow that much chaos and upset the balance of your Templar counter part instead of working with them to ensure the safety of your charges? That's what you get Orsino. That's what you get.

 

Irving grated Gregoire whenever he could, but at least he knew better than to shut off the raptor fences let Jowan escape the Tower.

Again, Meredith was perfectly willing to murder anyone who'd taken in an apostate mage, ever, in that one quest you didn't do. Among many other things never contradicted. As for Meredith letting you decide Anders' fate... as you said, visibly unraveling.

[GVulture]

Again, Meredith was perfectly willing to murder anyone who'd taken in an apostate mage, ever, in that one quest you didn't do. Among many other things never contradicted. As for Meredith letting you decide Anders' fate... as you said, visibly unraveling.

Heh, I was actually referring to once you arrive at the Gallows and she gets all shifty eyed and looking over her shoulder and scowling like she was going to murder anyone that didn't jump when she barked. You know... visibly. Rather than... "He is your companion, you decide his fate" and calmly walking away.

[KBomb]

Again, Meredith was perfectly willing to murder anyone who'd taken in an apostate mage, ever, in that one quest you didn't do. Among many other things never contradicted. As for Meredith letting you decide Anders' fate... as you said, visibly unraveling.

What mission is this? I can't remember it. I am certainly not doubting you, I am only asking hoping to jog my memory.

 

I do know that On the Loose, she doesn't seem to be too upset that you didn't kill anyone(except the ones you had to kill. Huon? or something like that and the crazy demon lady) She just seems satisfied that the other one had been apprehended. 

 

But to the original point and as I stated before: Whether Cullen likes/trusts mages or not is a secondary issue. He is to supply advice on military strategy and tactics and as long as his mistrust doesn't interfere with his job, he can dislike them all he wants. 

[thetinyevil]

What mission is this? I can't remember it. I am certainly not doubting you, I am only asking hoping to jog my memory.

 

I do know that On the Loose, she doesn't seem to be too upset that you didn't kill anyone. She just seems satisfied they've been apprehended. 

 

But to the original point and as I stated before: Whether Cullen likes/trusts mages or not is a secondary issue. He is to supply advice on military strategy and tactics and as long as his mistrust doesn't interfere with his job, he can dislike them all he wants. 

Noble Agenda. You work with Nobles who want a new Viscount but can't get one because Meredith is preventing it.

[The Hierophant]

Or maybe he was afraid another templar would report him to Elthina and actually make her get of her but and do her job.

I doubt it'll change much since she'll have to contact Meredith about the crime anyway, as it should be up to the latter to discipline her subordinates.

[thetinyevil]

I doubt it'll change much since she'll have to contact Meredith about the crime anyway, as it should be up to the latter to discipline her subordinates.

True.

[Urazz]

I think the main reason why things in Kirkwall went as bad as they did was mainly due to Orsino and Meredith.

 

Meredith was harsh on the mages in Kirkwall in the first 2 acts of DA2 and I really wasn't really all that supportive of causing a revolution against the Chantry and Templars at that point.  She was harsh on the mages of Kirkwall for sure but wasn't real bad until Act 3 when she was under the influence of the red lyrium.

 

Orsino pretty much made things worse by actually trying to hide blood mages and hampering the Templars from going after the actual bad mages.

 

I think Meredith would've still went crazy regardless due to the red lyrium but if Orsino hadn't done what he did, then maybe the Templars wouldn't have supported Meredith's orders at the end of Act 3 because then they would've been making some real progress on the bad mages.

[GVulture]

I actually just watched a Let's Play with the quest. Annnnd... again... no real evidence. The Templar that is threatening the lady that fed her apostate cousin is cut off before he can actually SAY what the penalty is and then the rest is Hawke randomly killing Templars who say absolutely nothing and a noble woman giving her interpretation of the events. The templars never say what they're doing. They show up and suddenly they start murdering each other. A terribly ill-written quest if you ask me because there is nothing going on other than "kill some Templars" and "Nobles don't like Meredith".

 

At least with on The Last Holdouts there is some you know... meat to it. There is a clear narrative and you have an opportunity to see the whole schism in the Templar Order between the bullies and the moderates standing up to them and you still kill Templars.

 

I would recommend siding with Meredith the next time you do Act III because The Noble Agenda is a TERRIBLE quest from start to finish.

[KBomb]

Noble Agenda. You work with Nobles who want a new Viscount but can't get one because Meredith is preventing it.

Thanks. I think I remember it, but I only sided with Orsino in one playthrough, so I can't recall enough to make a proper statement on it. I tried to watch it on Youtube, but I can't find a walkthrough with subtitles. Does it actually mention specifically that Meredith orders the families to be killed, or is it implied like the other rumors were, or what?