490 réponses à ce sujet

[GVulture]

You seem to misunderstand me.

He was a fairly nice guy mage until he was forcibly taken by the Templars to the Kirkwall Circle for being an apostate mage. He was then driven to insanity and blood magic and demons because of them. That;s his excuse.

This is on the Templars entirely.

And not protecting him properly from mistreatment in the Circle is on Orsino. If he was... you know... taking care of his charges instead of screaming in the middle of the streets or helping mages escape the Tower... he might have kept an eye on him.

[LobselVith8]

Honestly, it does seem like a quest that wasn't thought out too well and was placed there just to "hate Meredith". If you side with her, hunting bloodmages does make sense.

 

I don't see that as the case. Meredith is wielding power as the de facto Viscount, and Ser Marlein was inspired enough by the Champion to assist him in dealing a blow to the templars, including gathering nobles who will support the Champion's cause.

 

A Noble Agenda doesn't really. I mean, her commanding death squads is a huge deal, but was delegated to one small mission? In all the rumored atrocities that were flung around and this wasn't at the forefront? Seems a bit odd to me. Also, the allegations of her having hand-picked the zealots as well as her being in command of the "Death squad" come solely from the nobles, who certainly would not benefit from her being in power. Maybe the whole mission was to be left up to the interpretation of the player, since no absolutes were presented. 

 

Act III seems a bit rushed, and Acts I and II are padded out with fetch quests; I think it's an issue of time constraints, since we have missing quests from the smugglers and the mercenaries, as well as the money we were supposed to get from the Bone Pone only partially implemented in the game code itself. Frankly, Meredith and Orsino both make mistakes. In this case, I think it's supposed to address the darker side of Meredith's rule over Kirkwall.

[GVulture]

I don't see that as the case. Meredith is wielding power as the de facto Viscount, and Ser Marlein was inspired enough by the Champion to assist him in dealing a blow to the templars, including gathering nobles who will support the Champion's cause.

 

 

Act III seems a bit rushed, and Acts I and II are padded out with fetch quests; I think it's an issue of time constraints, since we have missing quests from the smugglers and the mercenaries, as well as the money we were supposed to get from the Bone Pone only partially implemented in the game code itself. Frankly, Meredith and Orsino both make mistakes. In this case, I think it's supposed to address the darker side of Meredith's rule over Kirkwall.

She can't have death squads if Ser Agatha tells us that Meredith wouldn't want innocents to be killed.

 

Just saying.

 

But yeah. I wouldn't use A Noble Agenda as evidence against Meredith when there is such strong conflicting evidence otherwise. That you can't access without playing a certain way...

 

It is almost as if the narrator was skewing the events leading up to the end of the game to support the final decision Hawke makes...

 

*blinks... Shakes fist* Varrrrrriiiiiiic!

[LobselVith8]

Yeah, that is ridiculous. He was a good husband and a nice guy until he turned to blood magic and began consorting with demons. That is on him entirely. No excuse for it.

 

I think the argument is being made that his captivity lead to this, since Huon lost his mind after ten years in the Circle of Kirkwall (after having lived most of his life as an apostate), and is matched by Evelina (from the Circle of Ferelden) becoming an abomination after turning herself in to the templars at the Gallows. It paints a grim picture to those of us who disagree with Meredith.

[KBomb]

You seem to misunderstand me.

He was a fairly nice guy mage until he was forcibly taken by the Templars to the Kirkwall Circle for being an apostate mage. He was then driven to insanity and blood magic and demons because of them. That;s his excuse.

This is on the Templars entirely.

Oh, I see what you meant now. Sorry.

 

However, I don't know if the templars are to blame. It seems as though every single mage that turns to blood magic or summoning demons or whatever, do so with the lament of "The Circle made me do it!" "The templars are the cause of this!"

 

None of them take responsibility for their actions. They claim no circle is needed, no templars are needed because mages can govern themselves. Yet, they turn to forbidden magic to fix their problems. Proving Meredith and anyone else pro-Circle correct. Huon had the sound mind to study blood magic. He had the sound mind to go to his wife so she could hide him. Of course he blamed his misdeeds on the Circle. It's a great go-to excuse for wanting to break the law. (So to speak)

[LobselVith8]

She can't have death squads if Ser Agatha tells us that Meredith wouldn't want innocents to be killed.

 

Just saying.

 

But yeah. I wouldn't use A Noble Agenda as evidence against Meredith when there is such strong conflicting evidence otherwise. That you can't access without playing a certain way...

 

It is almost as if the narrator was skewing the events leading up to the end of the game to support the final decision Hawke makes...

 

*blinks... Shakes fist* Varrrrrriiiiiiic!

 

I have to say, while I disagree with you, I appreciate that you've been civil throughout this discussion. I had a rather unpleasant experience earlier (in another thread) when someone decided to compare the Dalish to the Taliban, and it's nice to have a civil disagreement with someone.

[GVulture]

I have to say, while I disagree with you, I appreciate that you've been civil throughout this discussion. I had a rather unpleasant experience earlier (in another thread) when someone decided to compare the Dalish to the Taliban, and it's nice to have a civil disagreement with someone.

Cheers, same.

Just to let you know, I was unabashedly Pro-Mage in my first DA2 game. It was ages ago, which leads to some memory lapses. During my most recent Pro-Templar run (roleplayed for maximum Inquisition drama for Cullen... had to have a "good mage" as Champion) I was shocked to discover how... surprisingly Pro-Mage you could make a Templar run. Be the change you want to make and all that. It led to some interesting insights, especially in regards to Meredith. I recommend it at some point (as I would a Pro-Mage run for a stout Templar supporter) if only to experience ALL the content and derive your view points from knowing both sides.

 

Meredith is surprisingly not that bad in person and in private. Which is something you just don't see in a Pro-Mage run and I honestly think that most of the Templar abuses happened without her knowledge but in her name because whenever there is someone present to call them on it, the story is different.

 

It such a grey area most of the time. When they are bad, you know it (blood mages and the Abusive Templars) but everything is so... vague. You can make the argument that Meredith's tight grip caused a lot of problems, but you can also say that if Orsino had supported her instead of undermining her there would've been less incidents to cause her to grip harder.

 

Also... the Viscount was useless. The Nobles were just as useless for squabbling instead of taking up the mantle themselves. Seriously. It shouldn't take two years to find someone to rule. 

[SgtSteel91]

Maybe the Blood Mages are innocent too?

 

When I said this, I wasn't talking about the Blood Mages throughout the game, just the ones in The Last Holdouts. Maybe they are innocent? There are apparently letters from these mages that mostly talk about getting out of Kirkwall or getting back at what appears to be Templars going after friends and family.

[Xilizhra]

And if we're going to bring up his character the Last Holdouts... well.... Agatha makes it clear that Meredith only wanted BLOOD MAGES dead. Not innocents and certainly not the families that were with those innocents. So again... now we have two different quests displaying two conflicting different sides of Meredith. We have hyperbole from noble houses (a politician lying to further their agenda... that's unheard of) making sweeping statements about Meredith and we have one of her actual knights that says "She doesn't want dead innocents". Which is... you know... more reliable?

Cullen was adamant about Meredith not being crazy until her craziness could no longer be denied. Given the actual proof of the quest in A Noble Agenda, it seems far more likely that Agatha is simply in denial.

 

 

I recommend it at some point (as I would a Pro-Mage run for a stout Templar supporter) if only to experience ALL the content and derive your view points from knowing both sides.

I would sooner burn my computer.

[GVulture]

Cullen was adamant about Meredith not being crazy until her craziness could no longer be denied. Given the actual proof of the quest in A Noble Agenda, it seems far more likely that Agatha is simply in denial.

 

 

I would sooner burn my computer.

I have already pointed out my skepticism about this "proof" in A Noble Agenda.

 

Wow, what's the point of having the game then if you refuse to expose yourself to half of the content? Do you always make the same decisions over and over in each game too?

[SgtSteel91]

Actually, from the way the conversation is going the whole "Death Squad" debacle can be interpreted as such,

 

• Zealot Templars go beyond the duty and start weeding out and purging associates of mages, whether they are blood mages or not; despite Meredith telling them not to do this
• Nobles hear or see this going on, and with Hawkes opposition to Meredith, assume that these "Death Squads" are some sort of retaliation on Meredith's part, and ask the Champion to stop them

So maybe Meredith didn't order Death Squads, but you do have a chance to take out Bad Templars.

[GVulture]

 

Actually, from the way the conversation is going the whole "Death Squad" debacle can be interpreted as such,

 

• Zealot Templars go beyond the duty and start weeding out and purging associates of mages, whether they are blood mages or not; despite Meredith telling them not to do this
• Nobles hear or see this going on, and with Hawkes opposition to Meredith, assume that these "Death Squads" are some sort of retaliation on Meredith's part, and ask the Champion to stop them

 

Yeah, there is never any evidence that Meredith was behind anything and thanks to The Last Holdouts we know that Mettin is a blood crazy nutter that would kill anything holding a long stick. Or anyone standing near them.

Not exactly someone I would trust in performing something super controversial like murdering innocents as they stand in the streets in front of their neighbors.

 

In fact, I would like to point out that the "hidden supply cache" has more mercenaries in it than Templars and there is no evidence there of it being Templar owned/run at all. Those Templars could've simply been there to investigate a merc hideout but Hawke just shows up and slaughters them all.

 

Like I said, this quest was a poorly written mess.

 

I don't think any thought went into it other than "okay the Pro-Templar people have a quest killing blood mages... they have an option to kill/save some innocents and they have to decide which Templar to support."

"What about the pro-mage quest?"

"Oh I dunno. Meredith is bad. Kill Templars."

[KBomb]

Cullen was adamant about Meredith not being crazy until her craziness could no longer be denied. Given the actual proof of the quest in A Noble Agenda, it seems far more likely that Agatha is simply in denial.

 

 

 

I don't believe Meredith was crazy until the very end--and then because of the idol. By then, Cullen was starting to doubt. Until then, he had no legitimate reason to assume her mental state was in decline. 

[SgtSteel91]

Yeah, there is never any evidence that Meredith was behind anything and thanks to The Last Holdouts we know that Mettin is a blood crazy nutter that would kill anything holding a long stick. Or anyone standing near them.

Not exactly someone I would trust in performing something super controversial like murdering innocents as they stand in the streets in front of their neighbors.

 

In fact, I would like to point out that the "hidden supply cache" has more mercenaries in it than Templars and there is no evidence there of it being Templar owned/run at all. Those Templars could've simply been there to investigate a merc hideout but Hawke just shows up and slaughters them all.

 

Like I said, this quest was a poorly written mess.

 

Maybe not

 

It could be just the game appearing to be straightforward, "Meredith is so evil she's ordering hits on people who oppose her!"

 

But you can see from the other side that things might not have been as straightforward as you had once assumed. Much like the overall Mage/Templar conflict in the game.

 

Maybe the developers were trying to be clever by playing into your bias against Meredith and the Templar Order.

 

Of course this works if you actually play the other path to see this.

[Xilizhra]

I have already pointed out my skepticism about this "proof" in A Noble Agenda.

 

Wow, what's the point of having the game then if you refuse to expose yourself to half of the content? Do you always make the same decisions over and over in each game too?

I have no desire to expose myself to content that makes me feel unclean, any more than I would shower in cat urine. As for decisions, no; I've flipped between Isabela's and Sebastian's friendship and rivalry, and gone through different DAO origins. One might even be a Morrigan-romancing male.

 

 

Yeah, there is never any evidence that Meredith was behind anything and thanks to The Last Holdouts we know that Mettin is a blood crazy nutter that would kill anything holding a long stick. Or anyone standing near them.

Not exactly someone I would trust in performing something super controversial like murdering innocents as they stand in the streets in front of their neighbors.

 

In fact, I would like to point out that the "hidden supply cache" has more mercenaries in it than Templars and there is no evidence there of it being Templar owned/run at all. Those Templars could've simply been there to investigate a merc hideout but Hawke just shows up and slaughters them all.

 

Like I said, this quest was a poorly written mess.

 

I don't think any thought went into it other than "okay the Pro-Templar people have a quest killing blood mages... they have an option to kill/save some innocents and they have to decide which Templar to support."

"What about the pro-mage quest?"

"Oh I dunno. Meredith is bad. Kill Templars."

We hardly need anything else. More dialogue would have been nice, but it's quite satisfying as-is. Also, far fewer hoops need to be jumped through to just assume that Agatha is in denial.

[GVulture]

I don't believe Meredith was crazy until the very end--and then because of the idol. By then, Cullen was starting to doubt. Until then, he had no legitimate reason to assume her mental state was in decline. 

Agreed. There is no evidence of her decline until the Chantry blows up and then guess what? Cullen starts going, "Uh, slow your roll girl."

 

If killing innocents and death squads was Her Thing, he wouldn't blink twice when she orders surrendering mages killed. But he stands up to her.

[Xilizhra]

Agreed. There is no evidence of her decline until the Chantry blows up and then guess what? Cullen starts going, "Uh, slow your roll girl."

 

If killing innocents and death squads was Her Thing, he wouldn't blink twice when she orders surrendering mages killed. But he stands up to her.

Fair-weather bastard. I could have taken him at the end, but the game wouldn't let me.

[GVulture]

I have no desire to expose myself to content that makes me feel unclean, any more than I would shower in cat urine. As for decisions, no; I've flipped between Isabela's and Sebastian's friendship and rivalry, and gone through different DAO origins. One might even be a Morrigan-romancing male.

 

 

We hardly need anything else. More dialogue would have been nice, but it's quite satisfying as-is. Also, far fewer hoops need to be jumped through to just assume that Agatha is in denial.

I think considering all the other evidence that the dickish Templars are acting without her consent, that Mettin is doing just that in A Noble Agenda.

[GVulture]

Fair-weather bastard. I could have taken him at the end, but the game wouldn't let me.

...

[Xilizhra]

I think considering all the other evidence that the dickish Templars are acting without her consent, that Mettin is doing just that in A Noble Agenda.

And I disagree, especially since "dickish" templars are all different people doing different things; they're not all in one Tranquil Agenda conspiracy.

[Xilizhra]

...

The maxim of human existence: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged."

If I have my way, though, I'll put him on trial for his participation in the Annulment when all this is over. Templar Nuremberg, if you will.

[SgtSteel91]

Going back to Cullen, I really would have liked to see the scene with the surrendering Mages on the path where Hawke sides with the Mages and isn't there to (potentially) be the voice of reason.

 

See Cullen really show doubt and disgust when Meredith orders them to be killed. Would he stand up and say no without Hawke to egg him on? It would make his latter decision to go against Meredith when she orders Hawkes immediate execution and letting Hawke leave much more impactful, imo.

[KBomb]

The maxim of human existence: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged."

If I have my way, though, I'll put him on trial for his participation in the Annulment when all this is over. Templar Nuremberg, if you will.

Can I ask you something? And please know that I won't judge your answer. I absolutely believe you have the right to play your character any way you wish without having to justify, defend it or explain it. I am simply just curious. Do you believe that mages should be allowed to resort to any means necessary to gain their freedom? Whether it's turning to blood magic, consorting with demons, etc? 

[Xilizhra]

Can I ask you something? And please know that I won't judge your answer. I absolutely believe you have the right to play your character any way you wish without having to justify, defend it or explain it. I am simply just curious. Do you believe that mages should be allowed to resort to any means necessary to gain their freedom? Whether it's turning to blood magic, consorting with demons, etc? 

Mages can resort to any means necessary within my ethical boundaries, which include things like only killing people in combat, not unnecessarily endangering innocents, and the like.

[KBomb]

Mages can resort to any means necessary within my ethical boundaries, which include things like only killing people in combat, not unnecessarily endangering innocents, and the like.

Interesting. Thank you for answering.