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[LobselVith8]

Going back to Cullen, I really would have liked to see the scene with the surrendering Mages on the path where Hawke sides with the Mages and isn't there to (potentially) be the voice of reason.

 

See Cullen really show doubt and disgust when Meredith orders them to be killed. Would he stand up and say no without Hawke to egg him on? It would make his latter decision to go against Meredith when she orders Hawkes immediate execution and letting Hawke leave much more impactful, imo.

 

I think it's a bit problematic that Cullen only intervenes once the Champion's life is on the line (and odd given that Hawke isn't giving any indication of surrendering to the templars, especially given how he's killed a plethora of templars simply to reach the courtyard). I can understand Xil's frustration with the character, due to Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment against the Circle for the actions of a single man, and Cullen is present when Meredith admits she's proceeding with this simply to appease a hypothetical mob; however, I think it's a flaw with the story, and what the developers were trying to do with the character. Having him be an active participant, and only standing in Meredith's way once Hawke's life is threatened, is quite jarring, particularly if the player is opposed to Meredith's actions (and I know it's a course of action some disagree with on both sides of the mage/templar debate).

 

This isn't the only example, of course. Cullen's rather odd handwave of Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry comes to mind, and I can't help but feel that it could have been handled better in both situations.

 

Of course, issues like this are likely to color how some feel about Cullen, and whether or not they are inclined to trust him and his moral compass. I get the feeling these "missteps" may not arise in Inquisition, given the amount of time that was given to the developers to work on the storyline. I'm certainly willing to wait and see who Cullen is now (in Inquisition), and give him a chance.

[SgtSteel91]

That's kinda of why I wish there was a scene that I just described, show him conflicted with the entire situation so that his turn is believable on both sides.

 

Also, I found it weird that when Meredith orders Hawke's execution on the Templar path, Cullen still says that they were originally going to arrest the Champion.

 

Arrest Hawke for what, exactly?

[The Elder King]

The maxim of human existence: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged."

If I have my way, though, I'll put him on trial for his participation in the Annulment when all this is over. Templar Nuremberg, if you will.

I doubt you'll get the chance, honestly.

That's kinda of why I wish there was a scene that I just described, show him conflicted with the entire situatio so that his turn is believable on both sides.
 
Also, I found it weird that when Meredith orders Hawke's execution on the Templar path, Cullen still says that they were originally going to arrest the Champion.
 
Arrest Hawke for what, exactly?

That's a problem with the limited dev time they had, I guess. They probably didn't have the time to check the dialogues and made correction a based on the path you were (plus, Act 3 is obviously rushed). Becuase it makes no sense for Hawke to be arrested in the pro-templar run.

[TK514]

That's kinda of why I wish there was a scene that I just described, show him conflicted with the entire situation so that his turn is believable on both sides.
 
Also, I found it weird that when Meredith orders Hawke's execution on the Templar path, Cullen still says that they were originally going to arrest the Champion.
 
Arrest Hawke for what, exactly?

I assumed Hawke's arrest tied into Meredith's usurpation of temporal power. The Champion is a threat to her regime, one of the few that could really act as a rallying point of the nobility and force the election of a Viscount she couldn't control. She had plenty of charges she could dig up and make stick. Harboring and consorting with Apostates, including the one that just blew up the Chantry. Harboring/consorting with a pirate. Harboring/consorting with an unclassified potential apostate/murderer.

Hawke, potentially, hung out with what Normal people would consider 'unsavory' characters, and didn't make any particular secret of it. And once she's arrested him, Hawke has one of many unfortunate accidents, and problem solved.

[RGC_Ines]

Two games where Cullen was included left feelings that he shouldn't be on position BioWare gave him in DA:I, He never showed any leadership skills. His ignorance about Anders thread, when Hawke tried to warn them, didn't help too. Even the moment when Cullen oposed Meredith, when she wanted Hawke death,, makes me wonder about his reasons. Was it, becouse he saw that something is wrong in this situation, or becouse he was feared, that there is a big chance, that Templars will not survive fight against Champion and her/his friend.I just never get any vibe from him as a strong warrior and good leader, and Im surprised that he become so capable between DA2 and DA:I to become Military Adviser ( this same was ih ME3 with VS high rank/SPECTRE status). Those facts, and my doubts that I will be ok with three pro-Chantry Advisers, are the reason, that I would prefer another NPC in this position than Cullen. From other hand, Im curious how BioWare will explain Cullen capability as military leader, and how this character evolved. Im wonder, if BioWare is able to convice me, that Cullen is a good choice for MA and that he is trustworthy even for pro-mage players. But I will see it in October, for now I have my doubts.

[duckley]

As we judge Cullens moral compass lets remember how he survived his ordeal and resisted Uldred. That certainly speaks to his spiritual devotion and strength of character.
Some may not agree with his belief in the Order and the Chantry, but I for one, respect it. Clearly, he can be strong and tenacious!


Lets also keep in mind that no potential ally in Kirkwall was strong. Orsino, Elthina, Dumas, were all weak in my opinion. They toobwere aware of the rumours, stories, gossip etc. I think Cullen was pretty much out there without a lot of support.

Pretty challenging for a young man thrust into a leadership role. Makes sense to me that it would take him time to grow into the role. He wanted to believe - that is what saved him in Ferelden - but ultimately could not.

[GVulture]

The maxim of human existence: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged."

If I have my way, though, I'll put him on trial for his participation in the Annulment when all this is over. Templar Nuremberg, if you will.

I just have to take steps back from conversations whenever someone brings out the "Imma gonna kill them when I get a chance" card because... yeah... let's kill people for disagreeing with you. That's healthy and not at all... scary.

 

Also, hehe, isn't that what people dislike about Meredith? So when people say that it's kinda... do you hear yourself?

 

That and I always think it is funny that people harp on all the poor little mages (because them being a mage makes it worse somehow, whut?) getting killed by all the big bad Templars but excuse (YMMV) Anders for the Chantry, Fenris for the Fog Warriors, Isabela for people caught up in the Qunari conflict, Merrill for her tribe (for some), Zevran for being an assassinating, and Leliana for being an assassin/bard.

 

Nearly all of the Dragon Age 2 companions have blood on their hands, but because Templar that means no forgiveness? Despite the fact that in Origins he doesn't kill any mages while under the throes of the worst of his PTSD (DA2 and The Witch Hunt DLC retcons the other possible endings for him) and in DA2 the only person he manhandles is another Templar? I don't follow the logic at all.

[KBomb]

I just have to take steps back from conversations whenever someone brings out the "Imma gonna kill them when I get a chance" card because... yeah... let's kill people for disagreeing with you. That's healthy and not at all... scary.

 

Also, hehe, isn't that what people dislike about Meredith? So when people say that it's kinda... do you hear yourself?

 

That and I always think it is funny that people harp on all the poor little mages (because them being a mage makes it worse somehow, whut?) getting killed by all the big bad Templars but excuse (YMMV) Anders for the Chantry, Fenris for the Fog Warriors, Isabela for people caught up in the Qunari conflict, Merrill for her tribe (for some), Zevran for being an assassing, and Leliana for being an assassin/bard.

 

Nearly all of the Dragon Age 2 companions have blood on their hands, but because Templar that means no forgiveness? Despite the fact that in Origins he doesn't kill any mages while under the throes of the worst of his PTSD (DA2 and The Witch Hunt DLC retcons the other possible endings for him) and in DA2 the only person he manhandles is another Templar? I don't follow the logic at all.

I always find it strange when some forumites make comments about how they love Sten, but then on some threads hate on other companions for being less than moral. (Certainly not directing this to XIIIzhra or anyone in this thread. Just something I have seen throughout my time here) I also find it odd when people want the ability to punch/slap/kill companions for not agreeing with them, disobeying, flirting with their LI and the weirdest of all--because they dislike them. To each their own, though. To each their own. 

[GVulture]

I always find it strange when some forumites make comments about how they love Sten, but then on some threads hate on other companions for being less than moral. (Certainly not directing this to XIIIzhra or anyone in this thread. Just something I have seen throughout my time here) I also find it odd when people want the ability to punch/slap/kill companions for not agreeing with them, disobeying, flirting with their LI and the weirdest of all--because they dislike them. To each their own, though. To each their own. 

I get that sometimes you don't LIKE a character but to hate and wish death and pain on someone because they don't gel with you? I mean, come on. ESPECIALLY with the Dragon Age story... because... honestly? The only companion that can claim not to have innocent blood on their hands is Oghren. And maybe Alistair if he doesn't rip the still beating heart out of the Warden's chest he romanced to be king. Oh, and Aveline. Not a good track record.

 

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Cullen is the Virmire Survivor of the Dragon Age fandom. There is always those people that are all "HUR HUR nuked 'em dead on Virmire" and "Derrrr Kaiden [sic] is such a jerk for standing up for his ideals and not chasing after me!" But then shower praises on Tali despite that she doesn't join Shepard until her Personal Business is dealt with. Kaidan/Ash are the exact same way except the obligations they have aren't tied up until Mass Effect 3... And considering that Garrus didn't agree to go with Shep, Shepard just kinda kidnaps him while he is laying bleeding on the floor.

[RenAdaar]

Yes I can just see the conversation between Orsino and Meredith.

 

"Meredith, I unintentally helped a blood mage he is Kirkwa...(gawww)" Head thumps on the floor.

 

"The first enchanter is a blood mage! Grand Cleric I need the ROA."

 

"Orsino was a blood mage, You have permission"

 

Templars kill every mage in the Gallows.

Lol I don't like orsino but I could totally see that happening. 

[Xilizhra]

I just have to take steps back from conversations whenever someone brings out the "Imma gonna kill them when I get a chance" card because... yeah... let's kill people for disagreeing with you. That's healthy and not at all... scary.

 

Also, hehe, isn't that what people dislike about Meredith? So when people say that it's kinda... do you hear yourself?

 

That and I always think it is funny that people harp on all the poor little mages (because them being a mage makes it worse somehow, whut?) getting killed by all the big bad Templars but excuse (YMMV) Anders for the Chantry, Fenris for the Fog Warriors, Isabela for people caught up in the Qunari conflict, Merrill for her tribe (for some), Zevran for being an assassinating, and Leliana for being an assassin/bard.

 

Nearly all of the Dragon Age 2 companions have blood on their hands, but because Templar that means no forgiveness? Despite the fact that in Origins he doesn't kill any mages while under the throes of the worst of his PTSD (DA2 and The Witch Hunt DLC retcons the other possible endings for him) and in DA2 the only person he manhandles is another Templar? I don't follow the logic at all.

Oh, good grief. Let me clarify that I don't approve of capital punishment. It's a trial, not a slaughter.

[GVulture]

Oh, good grief. Let me clarify that I don't approve of capital punishment. It's a trial, not a slaughter.

But how would that make sense? This is how I picture an Inquisitor trying that:

"Imma put you on trial for shiz that happened months ago. All I have is vague second hand accounting of your actions~! You were vetted by Cassandra, Leliana, and (one assumes) the Divine! Buuuuut... I like mages so you're on trial for Kirkwall! Even though there is no evidence of you having any part of wrong doing! This is how the Inquisitor thanks those Templars that didn't go bat poopy insane and kill everyone in Kirkwall! The one that stayed behind and helped rebuild before getting tapped to start up this shiz... cuz... uh... I hear you didn't like mages once upon a time!"

"Uhm... well, that isn't true. Not anymore at least... there was a dark period of my life..."

"GUILTY!!!"

 

You can question him about it, but to act like the Inquisitor has any kind of moral right to judge him for it is... silly.

[KBomb]

Two games where Cullen was included left feelings that he shouldn't be on position BioWare gave him in DA:I, He never showed any leadership skills. His ignorance about Anders thread, when Hawke tried to warn them, didn't help too. Even the moment when Cullen oposed Meredith, when she wanted Hawke death,, makes me wonder about his reasons. Was it, becouse he saw that something is wrong in this situation, or becouse he was feared, that there is a big chance, that Templars will not survive fight against Champion and her/his friend.I just never get any vibe from him as a strong warrior and good leader, and Im surprised that he become so capable between DA2 and DA:I to become Military Adviser ( this same was ih ME3 with VS high rank/SPECTRE status). Those facts, and my doubts that I will be ok with three pro-Chantry Advisers, are the reason, that I would prefer another NPC in this position than Cullen. From other hand, Im curious how BioWare will explain Cullen capability as military leader, and how this character evolved. Im wonder, if BioWare is able to convice me, that Cullen is a good choice for MA and that he is trustworthy even for pro-mage players. But I will see it in October, for now I have my doubts.

About Cullen showing leadership skills--well he wasn't given much chance to, was he? Every time we have met him, he has been under the orders of someone else. As I said in another thread, my little dalish elf had none either. She was happy with Tamlen, just hunting and whatever else elves do in the woods. However, Duncan saw something in her (perhaps much like Cassandra sees something in Cullen) and she soon rose to the challenge of saving the Circle, placing a Dwarven king on a throne, uniting an entire country under her cause, winning a Landsmeet, placing another king on the throne and being personally chosen to lead his armies against the darkspawn, among other things. She did okay for not having any leadership skills. Cullen has military training and is a warrior. He is also trained in killing demons--which is good, considering they're going to be oodles of them about. As far as I know, and as I have stated previously, his duties will be to advise you in military tactics and strategies. He is qualified to do so. 

 

Also, doesn't he tell you he'll pass the information about Anders onward if you warn him? How do you know he doesn't?  As for why he was insubordinate to Meredith, I guess that could be left to interpretation, but I doubt it was born from fear. He always seemed duty bound, arresting Hawke for a trial was one thing, outright killing him was another. 

[Xilizhra]

But how would that make sense? This is how I picture an Inquisitor trying that:

"Imma put you on trial for shiz that happened months ago. All I have is vague second hand accounting of your actions~! You were vetted by Cassandra, Leliana, and (one assumes) the Divine! Buuuuut... I like mages so you're on trial for Kirkwall! Even though there is no evidence of you having any part of wrong doing! This is how the Inquisitor thanks those Templars that didn't go bat poopy insane and kill everyone in Kirkwall! The one that stayed behind and helped rebuild before getting tapped to start up this shiz... cuz... uh... I hear you didn't like mages once upon a time!"

 

"Uhm... well, that isn't true. Not anymore at least... there was a dark period of my life..."

"GUILTY!!!"

Properly. I'll gather Hawke's party, all surviving mages, and those templars who wish to talk about it, and call everyone I can get as witnesses.

 

And this isn't just for Cullen, keep in mind; it's for every last templar who participated in the Kirkwall Annulment. If possible, I'd do the same for the Darismuid Annulment. Of course, this would likely all be terribly impractical, but the point is to see that justice is done.

[GVulture]

About Cullen showing leadership skills--well he wasn't given much chance to, was he? Every time we have met him, he has been under the orders of someone else. As I said in another thread, my little dalish elf had none either. She was happy with Tamlen, just hunting and whatever else elves do in the woods. However, Duncan saw something in her (perhaps much like Cassandra sees something in Cullen) and she soon rose to the challenge of saving the Circle, placing a Dwarven king on a throne, uniting an entire country under her cause, winning a Landsmeet, placing another king on the throne and being personally chosen to lead his armies against the darkspawn, among other things. She did okay for not having any leadership skills. Cullen has military training and is a warrior. He is also trained in killing demons--which is good, considering they're going to be oodles of them about. As far as I know, and as I have stated previously, his duties will be to advise you in military tactics and strategies. He is qualified to do so. 

 

Also, doesn't he tell you he'll pass the information about Anders onward if you warn him? How do you know he doesn't?  As for why he was insubordinate to Meredith, I guess that could be left to interpretation, but I doubt it was born from fear. He always seemed duty bound, arresting Hawke for a trial was one thing, outright killing him was another. 

Agreeing here. Besides, his write up indicates that his position with the Inquisition is because of his actions after Kirkwall. How he handled things after it all fell apart.

 

He was a baby Templar in Origins. No say at all.

 

Act I Cullen was still a bit PTSD and not quite... there. There is also evidence of him caring a lot about the Templars under his command and any danger they might face.

Act II and Act III had Cullen proactively seeking out help and delegating things to Hawke when he felt that the Templar presence would make tensions worse. Good awareness skills about things like that are useful in a leader. Just sayin.

[Steelcan]

Roll as Stannis the Mannis and listen to whoever promises you to burn those who stand in your way

[Mr.House]

Properly. I'll gather Hawke's party, all surviving mages, and those templars who wish to talk about it, and call everyone I can get as witnesses.

 

And this isn't just for Cullen, keep in mind; it's for every last templar who participated in the Kirkwall Annulment. If possible, I'd do the same for the Darismuid Annulment. Of course, this would likely all be terribly impractical, but the point is to see that justice is done.

And who shall bring Anders and Hawke to justice for what they did?

[KBomb]

Properly. I'll gather Hawke's party, all surviving mages, and those templars who wish to talk about it, and call everyone I can get as witnesses.

 

And this isn't just for Cullen, keep in mind; it's for every last templar who participated in the Kirkwall Annulment. If possible, I'd do the same for the Darismuid Annulment. Of course, this would likely all be terribly impractical, but the point is to see that justice is done.

Well, good luck with gathering a jury of his peers who will sit through a trial while demons are killing everything in sight. Priorities. Priorities. 

 

I don't see anyone trusting Merrill's word, either. A dalish elf and blood mage who was kicked out of her clan. Bethany, who didn't hate Cullen at all. And I am sure they would love hearing Ander's testimony. Also, once again: Priority.

[Hellion Rex]

And who shall bring Anders and Hawke to justice for what they did?

Huh? Anders I can understand, but why must Hawke stand trial?

[Mr.House]

Huh? Anders I can understand, but why must Hawke stand trial?

If your Hawke supports what Anders did and had no guilt or issues with helping Anders put the bomb there? You can state that afterall if you want.

[CronoDragoon]

Cullen's supposed leadership skills that got him appointed to the Inquisition occur after DA2 ends in Kirkwall. It's reasonable for the player to believe that he's grown as a character and that turning against Meredith was a turning point for him.

 

As for his moral compass: that is my job. It won't be required of him to make moral decisions; only to carry out my orders. At that he seems fairly versed.

[GVulture]

Properly. I'll gather Hawke's party, all surviving mages, and those templars who wish to talk about it, and call everyone I can get as witnesses.

 

And this isn't just for Cullen, keep in mind; it's for every last templar who participated in the Kirkwall Annulment. If possible, I'd do the same for the Darismuid Annulment. Of course, this would likely all be terribly impractical, but the point is to see that justice is done.

And you don't think that this hasn't already been done by the Divine? Well... not the most recent Annulment... since most of the Templars told her peace out and rebelled... but THOSE are being brought to justice by the Inquisition? Yes? The Red Templars and all that noise.

 

The Inquisition doesn't fire up its engines when your PC gets spat out of the Fade. It has been in the works for nearly a year. After the Kirkwall rebellion. Before Asunder and The Masked Empire. So... yeah... what would you be accomplishing?

 

But Kirkwall, as far as the next game is concerned. Old news. You'd be dragging up past tensions and again holding him responsible for... what exactly? Not stopping Meredith sooner is the only real bad thing that Cullen has done...

 

Which you know... if he had... then... that would make him the hero of Kirkwall. Not Hawke. Narrative roles to fill and all. Someone in a position of authority has to be left to show how grateful they are you killed the giant red lady.

[LobselVith8]

I'm only arguing that identifying a negative (in one's own mind) about someone in no way intimates that they cannot "look past it" to work together.

 

It is, after all, what humanity's been doing since the beginning of time.

 

I'd have a hard time trusting someone who viewed me as a heathen. If I was Dalish, I'd have a serious issue putting my faith in someone who looked down on me for my religious beliefs, particularly when my people say this was the cause of the war between the elves and humanity in the Dales. With clans being intimidated to convert by some narrow-minded Andrastians (as the Sabrae Clan faced in Sundermount), I'd have little reason to put any degree of trust in Cullen's moral compass if he hadn't changed. I'd presume the Dwarven and Vashoth protagonist may have had similar experiences as well, particularly if neither one converted to the Andrastian faith and lived near followers of the Chantry. And this doesn't even touch on the issue of magic.

 

If this blurb (that Gaider tweeted) is accurate to who Cullen is now, I'm inclined to think Cullen's dramatically changed, and that this likely won't be an issue.