490 réponses à ce sujet

[GVulture]

Yes I love that. I love how he wrestles with "a good templar does this..." with how he thinks a good templar should be and to me decides the two are seperate when he goes "I believe that's what being a templar is about." to Meredith when he tries to spare the mages. Watching her eye twitch when Hawke backs him always has me smile.

Yeah... let's murder one of the good Templars that the Order should be made up of because... Rite of Annulment... that he didn't participate in. HE WAS THERE as evidence could also be used against Evangeline. She was there. Why not kill her?

[Steelcan]

Yes I love that. I love how he wrestles with "a good templar does this..." with how he thinks a good templar should be and to me decides the two are seperate when he goes "I believe that's what being a templar is about." to Meredith when he tries to spare the mages. Watching her eye twitch when Hawke backs him always has me smile.

. Sadly telling her to stand down after she has exceeded her legal authority, doesn't seem to be enough, if he isn't white knighting for their chosen group he needs to be stringed up

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah one of my white knights did but I'm pretty sure that's something Isabela would never tell him. Not because he'd do something stupid like attack her but I guess the other fallout is something she really doesn't want to deal with and why reopen that wound. Just better to take it to the grave.

 

Since my canon Hawke was vicious, greedy, and cared about nothing other than her family and friends, yet got all her family killed except Bethany and let Anders blow up the city in which her friends were located, I'd like to think Isabela felt comfortable enough to let Hawke see her at her worst, too.

[GVulture]

. Sadly telling her to stand down after she has exceeded her legal authority, doesn't seem to be enough, if he isn't white knighting for their chosen group he needs to be stringed up

But then this same group will praise Evangeline to the last. Despite most of her "white knighting" is copy and paste Cullen Act III.

[Xilizhra]

Of which, you never see him participate in. Because he doesn't. He isn't there when Meredith calls for the Annulment. He isn't there until Meredith gets to the Gallows and starts swinging her murder knife at innocent mages. THEN HE STEPS IN.

 

If you side with the mages, you miss that tidbit. He walks in with her, apparently briefed on the situation. Meredith goes all murder eyes on some surrendering mages and he says, "SLOW YOUR ROLL, LADY!"

 

Until then, he does nothing because there is NOTHING to stop.

Then he might be found not guilty. It'll come out in the trial either way.

 

Except in the world in which the game is set.

 

FFS, mages aren't jews. Templars aren't Nazis. Get your irrelevant real life analogs out of the game where it doesn't fit.

The law in this case will be the Inquisition's.

[Steelcan]

There isn't going to be a trial, no more than Shepard's ME2 squad was put on trial

[KBomb]

Ugh. The KILLALLTEMPLARS crowd is just as bad as the KILLALLMAGES crowd.

I have seen some state that Anders was justified in killing Elthina because she did nothing to help mages. Honestly, I am a huge supporter for people adopting play styles that bring them the most enjoyment, regardless of what anyone thinks. That being said, I still can't fathom how anyone could advocate what he did. 

[GVulture]

Then he might be found not guilty. It'll come out in the trial either way.

 

The law in this case will be the Inquisition's.

There doesn't need to be a trial.

 

*face palm*

 

You don't seem to be getting that I am implying that Cullen has already gone through his Cassandra/Leliana murder stabbing his favorite book interrogation?

 

He is part of the Inquisition...So again... what are you accomplishing as Inquisitor by trotting one of your advisers up for a trial based on some SEVERELY OUT OF CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF IT hatred for his behavior in Kirkwall or Kinloch Hold?

[Ryzaki]

Since my canon Hawke was vicious, greedy, and cared about nothing other than her family and friends, yet got all her family killed except Bethany and let Anders blow up the city in which her friends were located, I'd like to think Isabela felt comfortable enough to let Hawke see her at her worst, too.

 

Yeah I had a uber nice Hawke that tried his best to help people (lost everyone cause yay angst but he tried damnit). So I guess Isabela probably felt he had enough life bombs without adding hers to the mix XD (well more than teh Qunari ones).

 

. Sadly telling her to stand down after she has exceeded her legal authority, doesn't seem to be enough, if he isn't white knighting for their chosen group he needs to be stringed up

 

I loved that scene so much. It's especially lovely with templar Carver (but since templar Carver sucks everywhere else really not worth not letting him be a warden).

 

Yeah... let's murder one of the good Templars that the Order should be made up of because... Rite of Annulment... that he didn't participate in. HE WAS THERE as evidence could also be used against Evangeline. She was there. Why not kill her?

 

**** even if he did. Damn thing was legal. And it's Anders fault the damn thing was legal. Killing Elthina allowed Meredith to call for it.

[Ryzaki]

There isn't going to be a trial, no more than Shepard's ME2 squad was put on trial

 

I'm not even going to lie. Leaving Zaeeds jackass to burn int he power plant is one of my fav choices. He earned that.

 

I only did it once but he really earned that death.

[CronoDragoon]

**** even if he did. Damn thing was legal. And it's Anders fault the damn thing was legal. Killing Elthina allowed Meredith to call for it.

 

I suppose you could argue that Meredith called for the Rite not to extinguish demonic influence but because she lost control of Kirkwall mages in general, which may constitute overstepping her authority.

[In Exile]

Furthermore, ROA is an entirely legal process. Cullen isn't the one who declared it. He just followed orders. My Hawke helped him. There is nothing to contest because there is nothing to charge.

 

Following orders is clearly not a defence. The supposed legality of conduct that is deemed to be immoral and a grevious crime is irrelevant. If there is an institution that has the power to try Cullen and that institution considers his conduct to be potentially criminal, neither of these two justifications would help him in the least. 

 

Particularly in an analogy to Nuremberg, which explicitly rejected both defences. 

 

. The Circles are a prison system, an Annulment is putting down a prison riot. It would be genocide if there was a simultaneous annulment across multiple Circles for the expressed purpose of wiping out Mages because they are Mages, not because the tower has fallen to demonic influence.

 

It is irrelevant to murder every single prisoner if there is a prison riot. Mages are killed because they are mages: only mages can become blood mages, after all, and only mages can be part of a Circle. 

 

Also, you do not understand what genocide means, nor what a crime against humaity means. Both are far broader than just the wholesale eradication of a group of people. For your edification: 

 

"Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group; 

(.  Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable: 

(a) Genocide; 

(.  Conspiracy to commit genocide; 
© Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide; 
(e) Complicity in genocide. "

 

The ROA meets the definition in article II(a), as mages are an ethnic group. 

 

. The SS answered to Hitler, their authority was not recognized by other nations, the Chantry's authority is

 

Their authority was recognized in Germany, and all of their actions were carried out within German jurisdiction. Other nation states recognized Germany and Hitler's government as the legitimate governors of Germany and its territory. None of this was relevant. 

 

Except in the world in which the game is set.

 

FFS, mages aren't jews. Templars aren't Nazis. Get your irrelevant real life analogs out of the game where it doesn't fit.

 

The Circles are crimes against humanity, by definition. The ROA is genocide, by definition. 

 

Thedas obviously does not have these concepts. But we do, and we can certainly classify the behaviour even if the game world itself is incapable. 

 

Notice that I didn't say that Cullen should be tried, or that I would try Cullen, or even that Thedas should recognize any of these crimes. But if we are talking about them, then the conduct at issue clearly meets the definition. 

[Steelcan]

I'm not even going to lie. Leaving Zaeeds jackass to burn int he power plant is one of my fav choices. He earned that.
 
I only did it once but he really earned that death.

I'm not even going to lie. Leaving Zaeeds jackass to burn int he power plant is one of my fav choices. He earned that.
 
I only did it once but he really earned that death.

Zapped was a top guy

[Xilizhra]

There doesn't need to be a trial.

 

*face palm*

 

You don't seem to be getting that I am implying that Cullen has already gone through his Cassandra/Leliana murder stabbing his favorite book interrogation?

 

He is part of the Inquisition...So again... what are you accomplishing as Inquisitor by trotting one of your advisers up for a trial based on some SEVERELY OUT OF CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF IT hatred for his behavior in Kirkwall or Kinloch Hold?

I did admit that it'd be impractical. To be honest, I fully expect that I'll have to brush this aside. But it's what I'd prefer to do if I had the option.

 

Of course, serving a Dalish mage might be punishment enough.

[LobselVith8]

Well, good luck with gathering a jury of his peers who will sit through a trial while demons are killing everything in sight. Priorities. Priorities. 

 

I believe Xil's issue is with the order of all mages for an act they didn't commit, which (to be fair to Xil) is something Cullen was privy to, since he's standing in attendance when Meredith admits that she's proceeding with the Right of Annulment, in her words (right after Orsino explicitly says the Circle didn't commit this act): "The grand cleric is dead, killed by a mage. The people will demand retribution, and I will give it to them."

 

As I said before, this is going to impact how some people view Cullen. I also think Cullen made a mistake in how he acted that day, but it's not as though we haven't had companions before who did terrible things in their past. Leliana killed people as a bard, Zevran assassinated people for the Crows, Loghain sold elves into slavery because of the civil war, and the protagonist can even do some radical things in the name of the greater good - encouraging Avernus and sparing the Anvil, to name two. Cullen trusted Meredith, and he was wrong; his entry seems to make it perfectly clear that he knows that.

 

I don't see anyone trusting Merrill's word, either. A dalish elf and blood mage who was kicked out of her clan. Bethany, who didn't hate Cullen at all. And I am sure they would love hearing Ander's testimony. Also, once again: Priority.

 

I understand where Xil is coming from. I'm willing to judge Cullen on who he is (which makes the most sense to me for a character who has no prior history with these people or this former Knight-Captain), but I also know that might not be the case for some people.

[KBomb]

I'm not even going to lie. Leaving Zaeeds jackass to burn int he power plant is one of my fav choices. He earned that.

 

I only did it once but he really earned that death.

I remember playing that mission with a friend in the room. I chose Zaeed's way and because I am deaf and it didn't show on subtitles, I didn't know that you could hear the people you leave to burn screaming. When my friend told me that, for some reason it bothered me so bad lol. I admit, I had to reload. 

[Steelcan]

"© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

Annulments are meant to protect, they are essentially a self defense, by the Time an Annulment is called the intention is not to kill Mages but abominations, how this translates to practical usage is another matter

[Ryzaki]

I suppose you could argue that Meredith called for the Rite not to extinguish demonic influence but because she lost control of Kirkwall mages in general, which may constitute overstepping her authority.

 

The Right of Annulment is the right of the templars to kill all mages in a Circle of Magi used as a last resort to restore order.^[1]

Divine Galatea granted the Right of Annulment to all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry in 2:83 Glory after an abomination slaughtered all mages and templars in the Nevarran Circle.^[2][3] Normally, the Right can only be invoked by a Grand Cleric or a de facto successor (Revered Mother); if there is no access to a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother, then Knight-Commanders of the Templar Order have legal authority to invoke the Right.^[4] Depending on the exact circumstances and how long it takes the relevant Grand Cleric to respond, the Right can be invoked but not carried out.

 

Sounds like it can be used as a last method to restore order not just demons (which I fully admit is wrong doesn't stop it from being legal).

 

Codex:

 

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the grand clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. 

 

Meredith had been asking for the right since the beginning of act 3. It's not a random splurge of the moment cause the chantry explosion. It just gave her the means and a (bad) excuse.

[GVulture]

Following orders is clearly not a defence. The supposed legality of conduct that is deemed to be immoral and a grevious crime is irrelevant. If there is an institution that has the power to try Cullen and that institution considers his conduct to be potentially criminal, neither of these two justifications would help him in the least. 

 

Particularly in an analogy to Nuremberg, which explicitly rejected both defences. 

 

 

It is irrelevant to murder every single prisoner if there is a prison riot. Mages are killed because they are mages: only mages can become blood mages, after all, and only mages can be part of a Circle. 

 

Also, you do not understand what genocide means, nor what a crime against humaity means. Both are far broader than just the wholesale eradication of a group of people. For your edification: 

 

"Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group; 

(.  Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable: 

(a) Genocide; 

(.  Conspiracy to commit genocide; 
© Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide; 
(e) Complicity in genocide. "

 

The ROA meets the definition in article II(a), as mages are an ethnic group. 

 

 

Their authority was recognized in Germany, and all of their actions were carried out within German jurisdiction. Other nation states recognized Germany and Hitler's government as the legitimate governors of Germany and its territory. None of this was relevant. 

 

 

The Circles are crimes against humanity, by definition. The ROA is genocide, by definition. 

 

Thedas obviously does not have these concepts. But we do, and we can certainly classify the behaviour even if the game world itself is incapable. 

 

Notice that I didn't say that Cullen should be tried, or that I would try Cullen, or even that Thedas should recognize any of these crimes. But if we are talking about them, then the conduct at issue clearly meets the definition. 

Not arguing that. Circles are gross. Annulment is sickening. But to act like our rules apply in this situation. They don't. Period. The rules are in place because ONE possessed mage can burninate a small village. In cases where mages start actively attacking people (and resorting to blood magic to overpower Templar Anti-magic... which happened in all three examples of ROA's)... well... and entire Tower full of mages is akin to a nuclear plant exploding. It might not matter than Not All Mages ™ were involved, that kind of swath of destruction... the mages would be killing each other. Again... seen in all three ROAs.

[In Exile]

"© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

Annulments are meant to protect, they are essentially a self defense, by the Time an Annulment is called the intention is not to kill Mages but abominations, how this translates to practical usage is another matter

 

You don't understand how a piece of legislature works. Genocide does not need to meet all four clauses. It is sufficient that it meets one of the four. Which it does. 

 

The Circles, however, could fall under Article II©, when you consider the conduct that clearly falls under II(d) (because we know that templars forcibly remove children from mages, cf. Rhys) and we have the Rite of Tranquility being deliberate used to strip mages of their free will along with other targeted attempts to prevent Circle mages from, well, reproducing. 

[Ryzaki]

Zapped was a top guy

 

We already know from the Oghren incident that you have no taste. *hmphs*

 

I remember playing that mission with a friend in the room. I chose Zaeed's way and because I am deaf and it didn't show on subtitles, I didn't know that you could hear the people you leave to burn screaming. When my friend told me that, for some reason it bothered me so bad lol. I admit, I had to reload. 

 

Yeah I did it once on a jerkass Shep. Had to reload. Even he wasn't that cold. Then the screaming stopped and I was just

To make it freaking worse it doesn't even make a difference in ME3! I just curse him out paragon style now.

[Steelcan]

And you argument for Germany is invalid, there were higher laws being broken, such as parts of the Geneva Convention and the international treaties, in Thedas the Chantry is the only organization with reach like that, and it allows Annulments

[Xilizhra]

Not arguing that. Circles are gross. Annulment is sickening. But to act like our rules apply in this situation. They don't. Period. The rules are in place because ONE possessed mage can burninate a small village. In cases where mages start actively attacking people (and resorting to blood magic to overpower Templar Anti-magic... which happened in all three examples of ROA's)... well... and entire Tower full of mages is akin to a nuclear plant exploding. It might not matter than Not All Mages ™ were involved, that kind of swath of destruction... the mages would be killing each other. Again... seen in all three ROAs.

Duly noted. And ignored. All templars who've participated in Annulments will be called to account regardless.

 

Luckily, most of them are likely to have turned Red, so slaughtering them in droves will have no moral issues--they appear to be far too warped to be saved. Whether other members of the Templar Order survive will depend wholly on whether they want to continue the war with me.

[In Exile]

And you argument for Germany is invalid, there were higher laws being broken, such as parts of the Geneva Convention and the international treaties, in Thedas the Chantry is the only organization with reach like that, and it allows Annulments

 

The Geneva Convention did not exist (it was signed 4 years after the war, in 1949). No international treatities criminalized the behaviour. The Nuremeberg Trials were a spectable because they were targeted acts that were usually considered impossible to prosecute under sovereign immunity, that were legal when carried out at the time, and that were being prosecuted under a retroactive law. 

 

The parallel is in fact perfect. 

[Steelcan]

You don't understand how a piece of legislature works. Genocide does not need to meet all four clauses. It is sufficient that it meets one of the four. Which it does. 
 
The Circles, however, could fall under Article II©, when you consider the conduct that clearly falls under II(d) (because we know that templars forcibly remove children from mages, cf. Rhys) and we have the Rite of Tranquility being deliberate used to strip mages of their free will along with other targeted attempts to prevent Circle mages from, well, reproducing.

. They do not sterilize Mages or kill their children, they do not kill Mages with the Rite if Tranquility, nor does that prevent them from reproducing ( as far as we know), an Annulmet is a targeted killing of demons, not mages, so unless you are going to argue that demons should apply under this then this argument is over.