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[GVulture]

The Right of Annulment is the right of the templars to kill all mages in a Circle of Magi used as a last resort to restore order.^[1]

Divine Galatea granted the Right of Annulment to all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry in 2:83 Glory after an abomination slaughtered all mages and templars in the Nevarran Circle.^[2][3] Normally, the Right can only be invoked by a Grand Cleric or a de facto successor (Revered Mother); if there is no access to a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother, then Knight-Commanders of the Templar Order have legal authority to invoke the Right.^[4] Depending on the exact circumstances and how long it takes the relevant Grand Cleric to respond, the Right can be invoked but not carried out.

 

Sounds like it can be used as a last method to restore order not just demons (which I fully admit is wrong doesn't stop it from being legal).

 

Codex:

 

 

 

 

Meredith had been asking for the right since the beginning of act 3. It's not a random splurge of the moment cause the chantry explosion. It just gave her the means and a (bad) excuse.

Basically... she enacted the Rite and then Orsino orders mages to stop her and her fellows so he can warn the others. They attack first.

 

Then she rolls up on the Gallows and briefs her Knight Captain and the first thing HE sees are mages surrendering. Since this isn't a case of abominations and blood mages killing up the joint he says, "WHOA. They did nothing. You killing them too?" Meredith puts on her red lyrium crazy shades and says, "yiiiiiiiiiiis" and Hawke and Cullen put the breaks on her.
 

[Steelcan]

The Geneva Convention did not exist (it was signed 4 years after the war, in 1949). No international treatities criminalized the behaviour. The Nuremeberg Trials were a spectable because they were targeted acts that were usually considered impossible to prosecute under sovereign immunity, that were legal when carried out at the time, and that were being prosecuted under a retroactive law. 
 
The parallel is in fact perfect.

None of that changes that the Chantry allows Annulments

[Xilizhra]

Basically... she enacted the Rite and then Orsino orders mages to stop her and her fellows so he can warn the others. They attack first.

 

Then she rolls up on the Gallows and briefs her Knight Captain and the first thing HE sees are mages surrendering. Since this isn't a case of abominations and blood mages killing up the joint he says, "WHOA. They did nothing. You killing them too?" Meredith puts on her red lyrium crazy shades and says, "yiiiiiiiiiiis" and Hawke and Cullen put the breaks on her.
 

Maybe that happened on your warped timeline. On mine, Cullen came up with Meredith from the Gallows' dock; he wasn't in the Gallows prior.

[Ryzaki]

Basically... she enacted the Rite and then Orsino orders mages to stop her and her fellows so he can warn the others. They attack first.

 

Then she rolls up on the Gallows and briefs her Knight Captain and the first thing HE sees are mages surrendering. Since this isn't a case of abominations and blood mages killing up the joint he says, "WHOA. They did nothing. You killing them too?" Meredith puts on her red lyrium crazy shades and says, "yiiiiiiiiiiis" and Hawke and Cullen put the breaks on her.
 

 

Yep. And all that started over a stupid arguement about her searching the rooms without permission. (Orsino probably didn't want his blood mage secret found out). Stupid stupid stupid. Elthina was the only one keeping that powerkeg in check and Anders pretty much blew the lid off. I blame him as much as I blame Meredith. Then his stupid ass is all "I didn't think it'd be this bad." I wanted to kick him down a flight of stairs. (really the only thing that makes that less aggravating is rivalry with the whole Justice hijack thing).

 

And yep. It breaks my heart a little how it happens if Hawke's all "kill em". Cullen's face

[In Exile]

Not arguing that. Circles are gross. Annulment is sickening. But to act like our rules apply in this situation. They don't. Period. The rules are in place because ONE possessed mage can burninate a small village. In cases where mages start actively attacking people (and resorting to blood magic to overpower Templar Anti-magic... which happened in all three examples of ROA's)... well... and entire Tower full of mages is akin to a nuclear plant exploding. It might not matter than Not All Mages ™ were involved, that kind of swath of destruction... the mages would be killing each other. Again... seen in all three ROAs.

 

I'm not with Xil on the need to prosecute Cullen, for the sole fact that I think he's a good little order-taking drone. That's an important quality in a subordinate. I just agree with her that the conduct amounts to genocide, and that under our modern definition (or under the Nuremeberg definition), Cullen is guilty of genocide. 

 

I will never agree, even in-setting, that killing the innocent (including children) along with the guilty to be sure that the threat has passed is justified. Most often, it is not even demonic possession but an uprising that is the motivating force behind the ROA. 

 

The mages are no less a threat before you discover 4 blood mages among then. It is just that once some blood mages are discovered, the templars become terrified there are more, and since they can't find or detect blood mages, a massacre is what allows them to maintain control. 

 

While I can see the justification behind the Circle, and even behind the radical sort of imprisonment we see in DA:O if you save the mages and say that they are a threat, the ROA is amoniable and indefensible, even within the logic of the setting. 

[KBomb]

*snipped*

First of all, I leave real life issues where they belong--real life. I am sorry, but I won't debate anything with you if you keep bringing that stuff up.

 

The ROA was inevitable and Anders made sure of that. He killed the Grand Cleric and citizens of Kirkwall, all of whom were innocent. The ROA isn't genocide. The rules of Thedas says that the ROA is allowed in certain circumstances and because of Ander's actions, death and destruction was going to happen, ROA or not. I am sure it was running through Meredith's mind, "How many more innocent citizens will die now?" The templars have a responsibility to safekeep mages, they also have a responsibility to safeguard innocent civilians. If the mages chose to rebel, who would be the ones paying that price? I believe she felt she lost control, whether it was a right choice or a wrong choice, it was a choice she had the authority to make and she did. She had to gain control and quickly. The morality of it is left to the player. I understand and respect your view of what transpired. I sympathize with all innocents caught in the crossfire of Anders selfishness, including the mages. However, were I a templar and had to choose between the ROA and the complete slaughter of Kirkwall, I would lead the ROA myself. 

[Xilizhra]

First of all, I leave real life issues where they belong--real life. I am sorry, but I won't debate anything with you if you keep bringing that stuff up.

 

The ROA was inevitable and Anders made sure of that. He killed the Grand Cleric and citizens of Kirkwall, all of whom was innocent. The ROA isn't genocide. The rules of Thedas says that the ROA is allowed in certain circumstances and because of Ander's actions, death and destruction was going to happen, ROA or not. I am sure it was running through Meredith's mind, "How many more innocent citizens will die now?" The templars have a responsibility to safekeep mages, they also have a responsibility to safeguard innocent civilians. If the mages chose to rebel, who would be the ones paying that price? I believe she felt she lost control, whether it was a right choice or a wrong choice, it was a choice she had the authority to make and she did. She had to gain control and quickly. The morality of it is left to the player. I understand and respect your view of what transpired. I sympathize with all innocents caught in the crossfire of Anders selfishness, including the mages. However, were I a templar and had to choose between the ROA and the complete slaughter of Kirkwall, I would lead the ROA myself. 

How lucky we are that we don't live in Thedas; you would not find a kind judge in me for that choice.

 

Also, the choice was completely false and made no sense, but eh.

[Steelcan]

And Germany did violate international treaties, numerous ones signed after WW1 such as the prohibition of chemical warfare, rules for treating POWs, etc....


But none of this is relevant because

A. The Chantry has the last say in matter relating to Mages
B. The Chantry allows Annulments as a legal right
C. Demons aren't people

[GVulture]

Anyways, Annulments aren't acts of genocide.

 

I'm not with Xil on the need to prosecute Cullen, for the sole fact that I think he's a good little order-taking drone. That's an important quality in a subordinate. I just agree with her that the conduct amounts to genocide, and that under our modern definition (or under the Nuremeberg definition), Cullen is guilty of genocide. 

 

I will never agree, even in-setting, that killing the innocent (including children) along with the guilty to be sure that the threat has passed is justified. Most often, it is not even demonic possession but an uprising that is the motivating force behind the ROA. 

 

The mages are no less a threat before you discover 4 blood mages among then. It is just that once some blood mages are discovered, the templars become terrified there are more, and since they can't find or detect blood mages, a massacre is what allows them to maintain control. 

 

While I can see the justification behind the Circle, and even behind the radical sort of imprisonment we see in DA:O if you save the mages and say that they are a threat, the ROA is amoniable and indefensible, even within the logic of the setting. 

I will grant you this.

 

I will also grant that the Order as a whole is broken.

 

What I don't agree with is treating Templars who have shown sound reasoning and mercy before the same treatment as the bad ones just because you don't like the Sword of Mercy on his uniform when the ROA went down.

[Xilizhra]

I will grant you this.

 

I will also grant that the Order as a whole is broken.

 

What I don't agree with is treating Templars who have shown sound reasoning and mercy before the same treatment as the bad ones just because you don't like the Sword of Mercy on his uniform when the ROA went down.

I will do everything in my power to ensure that the entire Order is disbanded and the lyrium lines shut down in DAI. How many templars die for this is up to them.

[In Exile]

. They do not sterilize Mages or kill their children, they do not kill Mages with the Rite if Tranquility, nor does that prevent them from reproducing ( as far as we know), an Annulmet is a targeted killing of demons, not mages, so unless you are going to argue that demons should apply under this then this argument is over.

 

No. The ROA is the targeted killing of all mages. From the wiki definition:

 

"The Right of Annulment is the right of the templars to kill all mages in a Circle of Magi used as a last resort to restore order." 

 

That's genocide under Articles II(a) and IIII(a). The Circles themselves constitute attempted genocide under II(d) because of the forcible removal of mage children, even if we debate whether or not the Circles meet II©. 

 

None of that changes that the Chantry allows Annulments

 

It doesn't matter that the Chantry allows annulments. We've been over this. The legality is not a defence. 

[CronoDragoon]

C. Demons aren't people

 

In regards to this point, it's been pointed out that demonic influence, real or suspected, isn't even a prerequisite for the invocation of the Rite.

 

Edit: I'll also point out that there seems to be two questions cross-firing in this thread and sometimes being conflated.

 

1. Would the Inquisitor have the legal authority in the game universe to put Kirkwall templars to trial? (Related to this: does the Kirkwall RoA constitute a breach of Templar authority?)

 

2. Does the Rite constitute a breach of certain real-world international moral doctrines?

[Steelcan]

I will do everything in my power to ensure that the entire Order is disbanded and the lyrium lines shut down in DAI. How many templars die for this is up to them.

. Which means you will do everything that Gaider will let you do, and given his predilection for keeping storylines going I have doubts that you will be able to do anything approaching that

[Who Knows]

Killing all of the mages because of what Anders did is pretty reprehensible.

I'm sure they could have thought of a better way to represent the templar side of things.

[Ryzaki]

In regards to this point, it's been pointed out that demonic influence, real or suspected, isn't even a prerequisite for the invocation of the Rite.

 

Yep. Which really I fully believe Meredith was in the wrong when she did it. But if it wasn't for Anders chantry Jenga she never would've been able to do it in the first place. SO as far as I'm concerned More than one person lead to that disaster. My Hawke just picks the side he feels he empathizes more with. Sometimes it's the mages, sometimes it's the templars. (Most of the time though I'd take the f*** you all I'm leaving if I could choice. Alas).

[GVulture]

How lucky we are that we don't live in Thedas; you would not find a kind judge in me for that choice.

 

Also, the choice was completely false and made no sense, but eh.

What Meredith was scared of was that mob of people trying to go and enact justice on the Circle by themselves. People are stupid and even though an apostate was responsible, someone would Fox News the crap out of that and imply that the Circle did it. Then you have a mob of people trying to kill mages and Templars trying to protect the city and the mages at the same time? The entire City would fall.

 

Meredith was trying to nip that in the bud. Right or wrong, it could be argued that she should've waited for that mob to show up first... but what if they couldn't be quelled once they rolled up to the gates?

[Xilizhra]

. Which means you will do everything that Gaider will let you do, and given his predilection for keeping storylines going I have doubts that you will be able to do anything approaching that

The war can apparently be won conclusively in some manner in the Hinterlands. My hopes aren't so low.

[In Exile]

First of all, I leave real life issues where they belong--real life. I am sorry, but I won't debate anything with you if you keep bringing that stuff up.

 

Words like "genocide" and "crime against humanity" have real meaning. In the same way that it is right to use the word "slavery" to refer to the condition of persons who are owned as property in Tevinter, it is correct to use the word "genocide" to describe the content of the ROA. 

 

Edit: I am not saying that these are crimes that should exist in Thedas. I am saying that I can (and are, correctly) using these terms to describe the conduct. 

 

The ROA was inevitable and Anders made sure of that. He killed the Grand Cleric and citizens of Kirkwall, all of whom were innocent. The ROA isn't genocide. The rules of Thedas says that the ROA is allowed in certain circumstances and because of Ander's actions, death and destruction was going to happen, ROA or not. I am sure it was running through Meredith's mind, "How many more innocent citizens will die now?" The templars have a responsibility to safekeep mages, they also have a responsibility to safeguard innocent civilians. If the mages chose to rebel, who would be the ones paying that price? I believe she felt she lost control, whether it was a right choice or a wrong choice, it was a choice she had the authority to make and she did. She had to gain control and quickly. The morality of it is left to the player. I understand and respect your view of what transpired. I sympathize with all innocents caught in the crossfire of Anders selfishness, including the mages. However, were I a templar and had to choose between the ROA and the complete slaughter of Kirkwall, I would lead the ROA myself. 

 

No mages rebelled. Anders was a loon apostate, acting alone. There was no evidence of any connection with the Kirkwall Circle of Magi, no evidence that the Circle of Magi was complicit in the plot to kill Elthina. 

 

Meredith had the same case for an ROA the day before Anders nuked the Chantry that she did the moment after he did it. 

 

Who was there to commit a complete slaughter of Kirkwall? The last thing that Orisono says to Meredith is that he will agree to anything in return for her not killing every single person in the Circle. 

[Steelcan]

 
It doesn't matter that the Chantry allows annulments. We've been over this. The legality is not a defence.

So it's legal, there is no law preventing it in any nation in Thedas, it is not applicable to irl treaties and agreements by virtue of the nature of the setting, yet you are still going to maintain that there is no defense for it?

Sounds a lot like taking real life baggage into the setting.


In the setting Meredith's call for the Rite was legal according to the laws of Thedas, end of discussion

[Xilizhra]

What Meredith was scared of was that mob of people trying to go and enact justice on the Circle by themselves. People are stupid and even though an apostate was responsible, someone would Fox News the crap out of that and imply that the Circle did it. Then you have a mob of people trying to kill mages and Templars trying to protect the city and the mages at the same time? The entire City would fall.

 

Meredith was trying to nip that in the bud. Right or wrong, it could be argued that she should've waited for that mob to show up first... but what if they couldn't be quelled once they rolled up to the gates?

The Gallows are in the damned ocean and the templars have the boats; your mob would either have to have a fair few sailors and captains on its side and willing to launch a sea attack on the fortress of the city's de facto rulers, or somehow swim across to the Gallows while still holding pitchforks and torches. There's no realistic chance that the Gallows could ever be threatened by non-templars.

[Steelcan]

The war can apparently be won conclusively in some manner in the Hinterlands. My hopes aren't so low.

. Yeah and the Rachni will have massive impacts on not just the final battle with the Reapers but beyond as well.

[In Exile]

Anyways, Annulments aren't acts of genocide.

 

I will grant you this.

 

I will also grant that the Order as a whole is broken.

 

What I don't agree with is treating Templars who have shown sound reasoning and mercy before the same treatment as the bad ones just because you don't like the Sword of Mercy on his uniform when the ROA went down.

 

I do not think Cullen should be treated the same. Even IRL, when it comes to sentencing this sort of conduct is exactly what would be taken into account. Cullen is not, in my eyes, the same kind of monster as Karras, Alrik or Meredith. 

 

But his hands aren't clean in all of this. 

[GVulture]

I will do everything in my power to ensure that the entire Order is disbanded and the lyrium lines shut down in DAI. How many templars die for this is up to them.

Problem is that you're trying to string up the Templars that stayed loyal to the Order and the Divine by NOT going to war with the mages.

Because that makes SO much sense.

 

*beep* Sarcasm self-test complete. *beep*

[In Exile]

So it's legal, there is no law preventing it in any nation in Thedas, it is not applicable to irl treaties and agreements by virtue of the nature of the setting, yet you are still going to maintain that there is no defense for it?

Sounds a lot like taking real life baggage into the setting.

 

The debate was whether or not Cullen could be tried for a crime. Cullen could be tried for a crime, as I explained. If you want to have some other debate, then have it with someone else, because that's all I'm debating with you: the possibility for Cullen to be tried and found guilty of an offence. 

And in this case, if someone like Xil wanted to try Cullen, it would be no different than what happened at Nuremberg. The whole conversation is about an IRL parallel. In-setting, Cullen will obviously be tried for nothing because the moral code that is even necessary for such a trial to be desired is impossible, and there will never be an interested party in power to actually create the legal framework to ever try him.