490 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

Meredith's attempted Annulment of the Circle is evil because she wanted to murder all the mages in Kirkwall because of what Anders did.... but Anders wasn't even a Circle mage! She was going to murder them all for something they didn't even do.

 

Also her Annulment was completely illegal the only person who can order an Annulment is the Divine. So in regards to Cullen if he was worth anything at all he would have placed her under arrest or at the very least not taken part in the unlawful killing of hundreds of people.
 

 

Actually no Grand Clerics can order annulments and if the Grand Cleric is not available then the next Revered Mother in line can and if all the Mothers are unavailable then the Knight Commander can. Anders blowing up of the Chantry gave her the power to invoke the rite. 

 

Of course I am sure the Chantry would not have viewed it as the right thing to do and she would have been removed from power if she hadn't gone insane and turned into a statue. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Actually no grand Clerics can order annulments and if the Grand Cleric is not available then the next Revered Mother in line can and if all the Mothers are unavailable then the Knight Commander can. Anders blowing up of the Chantry gave her the power to invoke the rite. 

 

Of course I am sure the Chantry would not have viewed it as the right thing to do and she would have been removed from power if she hadn't gone insane and turned into a statue. 

 

The Rite of Annulment is the means of last result to regain control over the Circle. The Circle and the Circle mages had nothing to do with what happened and the Circle itself wasn't out of control at all, in fact there was nothing at all 'wrong' with the Circle at the time of the explosion. Also keep in mind she may have the ability to invoke the Rite she doesn't have the ability to carry it out. Add to that the fact that she invoked the right no more than two seconds after the explosion and without confirming the death of the Revered Mother makes her entire action illegal.

 

Cullen blindly following her without even questioning anything makes him a very untrustworthy adviser because he comes across as someone who wants to be the good solider and follow. Even if it isn't the right thing to do.
 

[LobselVith8]

So Orsino somehow magically knew the spell to turn himself into a Harvester without ever practicing it or anything like it? Yeah, I don't believe that.

 

Considering that it's a one-way ticket into becoming a "super abomination" (as the developers said), I'm not sure how Orsino would have practiced this beforehand. It seems like a one-way ticket to hell.

[mikeymoonshine]

The Rite of Annulment is the means of last result to regain control over the Circle. The Circle and the Circle mages had nothing to do with what happened and the Circle itself wasn't out of control at all, in fact there was nothing at all 'wrong' with the Circle at the time of the explosion. Also keep in mind she may have the ability to invoke the Rite she doesn't have the ability to carry it out. Add to that the fact that she invoked the right no more than two seconds after the explosion and without confirming the death of the Revered Mother makes her entire action illegal.

 

Cullen blindly following her without even questioning anything makes him a very untrustworthy adviser because he comes across as someone who wants to be the good solider and follow. Even if it isn't the right thing to do.
 

 

I merely responded to your claim that only the divine could invoke the right and therefore the criticism of Cullen that follows is wrong, but i'll respond anyway.

 

Yes it's a last resort but the person who decides when that last resort is necessary was Meredith, thanks to Anders. I'm not saying that what she did would not have been deemed illegal at some point but she had the legal right to do it at the time. 

 

I'm not an expert but where does it say that she cannot carry out the right? I know that it can be invoked but not carried out but that doesn't mean a Knight Commander is unable to once it has been invoked. 

 

Well was the Revered Mother alive? There were Templars in the Chantry so maybe she knew who was in there? You seem to be nitpicking just to try and save your argument. 

 

Well Cullen did not believe Meredith was right to annul the circle, that's something at least. 

[GVulture]

I just have to point out that Cullen was VERY cognizant of Meredith's behavior.

 

Except that UNTIL The Last Straw, Meredith isn’t lashing out willy nilly.

 

Those blood mages she kept suspecting were everywhere? THEY WERE THERE. Orsino must be helping them keep secret! HE WAS. The Tranquil Solution? DON’T BE A NUTTER, ALRIK. You shouldn’t be shouting in the streets riling people up, Orsino. You shouldn’t remain neutral, your Eminence. SOMEONE MIGHT TAKE JUSTICE INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

 

Cullen is greatly aware of all of Meredith’s comings and goings, and she never tightened her grip without cause. Unfortunately for most of the innocent mages involved, she cracked down just as hard on them as she did on ones that had actually done wrong. She wasn't mad with power. She was someone that took it upon herself to impose Order when she saw things were failing. The Viscount WAS useless.

 

He says in Act III that he seen the true face of madness and Meredith is not there. Fanatical and unforgiving, yes. But not mad. Not until Anders blew up the Chantry. The Chantry going up, the Champion, AND her Knight Commander turning on her AND THEN DISCOVERING SHE WAS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING ALL ALONG broke her. The red lyrium might have had an affect on her, but if it was making her uber crazy go nuts she was hiding it very well. So, well, in fact, that a mage Hawke can stand across from her during The Last Straw and say that what Meredith does is WRONG and Meredith acknowledge Hawke's mage-y ness and point out that not every mage can carry that burden of their power as well as Hawke does.

 

It is why that I love Meredith as a villain. Everyone sets her up as this huge bad guy and so they do everything they can to subvert her and that turns her into the very thing they accused her of being.

 

TL;DR version: Meredith wasn't a blood crazed hell hound that Cullen was allowing to bite children. She was a capable, if overly stressed Knight Commander that was doing a difficult job in a difficult Circle in a tumultuous city and he was doing his best to support her. To make that job easier so that things wouldn't spin further out of control and make her crack down harder. (all his quest where he implores Hawke to take care of something before it becomes an official Templar matter)

[In Exile]

Considering that it's a one-way ticket into becoming a "super abomination" (as the developers said), I'm not sure how Orsino would have practiced this beforehand. It seems like a one-way ticket to hell.

 

He had to learn how to perform it somehow. We've seen since DA:O that magic isn't something that comes natural - it takes practice. Even blood magic spells require skill and practice. 

[GVulture]

At the very least, the argument could be made that he made some sort of demonic pact or commandeered all the blood magic books in the Circle the way that Irving had.

[mikeymoonshine]

Did Orsino know what was gonna happen when he did that? I never understood why he did it tbh. 

[GVulture]

Pretty sure it was supposed to be the big "WTF ORSINO, I THOUGHT MEREDITH WAS THE CRAZY ONE??!" moment.

[Deflagratio]

Funny that Moral Compass is coming up as an important factor when discussing military leaders. To see just how much it really matters, look up Colonel Curtis "Terror Bombing" Lemay. (Later promoted to General and put on the White House Chief of Staff board, that's scary)

[In Exile]

Did Orsino know what was gonna happen when he did that? I never understood why he did it tbh. 

 

The idea was (I think) that he was driven to such desperation by the massacre of his fellow mages that he no longer cared about living, or surviving. He just wanted to see a mound of dead templars, and believed this spell would get him there. 

 

It makes no sense when siding with the mages since you just triumphantly saved some lives, but apparently Bioware was directed to have a boss fight. 

[Wolfen09]

who am i to judge moral compass, mine points down... not south, straight down....

[Mr.House]

You have to admit his research was incredibly powerful stuff.

Are you fucken kidding me?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I merely responded to your claim that only the divine could invoke the right and therefore the criticism of Cullen that follows is wrong, but i'll respond anyway.

 

Yes it's a last resort but the person who decides when that last resort is necessary was Meredith, thanks to Anders. I'm not saying that what she did would not have been deemed illegal at some point but she had the legal right to do it at the time. 

 

I'm not an expert but where does it say that she cannot carry out the right? I know that it can be invoked but not carried out but that doesn't mean a Knight Commander is unable to once it has been invoked. 

 

Well was the Revered Mother alive? There were Templars in the Chantry so maybe she knew who was in there? You seem to be nitpicking just to try and save your argument. 

 

Well Cullen did not believe Meredith was right to annul the circle, that's something at least. 

 

I know that the finer points of Chantry law haven't been strictly stated but there has to be some guideline about the amount of time a Knight Commander has to wait before invoking and then carrying out the Rite by themselves. If you remember Greggor's Circle was legitamitly out of control and he was still waiting for the Ok from the Grand Cleric before actually starting it. The fact that he was waiting for the go ahead even when things going that nuts tells me that there's a legal waiting time that has to be taken.

 

I'd also wager to guess that the law strictly states that its a means of last resort and since every Templar in the city knew the Circle wasn't in any dangers of going crazy there was no valid reason for doing so. The death of a Grand Cleric or Revered mother doesn't automatically give a Commander the legal right to Annul the Cicle just because.

 

Yes Cullen didn't believe Meredeth was right.... but he helped her anyway so that's actually even worse for the argument of Cullen's ability to be an adviser. If he followed her believing she was right that would be one thing but to believe that she's wrong and to murder mages anyway makes him a coward and a murderer doesn't it?

 

If he believed she was wrong the least he could do is step aside and say he wasn't going to participate, but he didn't.

[In Exile]

Funny that Moral Compass is coming up as an important factor when discussing military leaders. To see just how much it really matters, look up Colonel Curtis "Terror Bombing" Lemay. (Later promoted to General and put on the White House Chief of Staff board, that's scary)

 

Well, to be fair, if Cullen's advice is always to just massacre the enemy to hear the lamentations of their women, he might not be giving really useful advice if the Inquisitor doesn't like up with that view. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Did Orsino know what was gonna happen when he did that? I never understood why he did it tbh. 

 

He did it because DA2's writing is horrible that's why.

[Wolfen09]

Well, to be fair, if Cullen's advice is always to just massacre the enemy to hear the lamentations of their women, he might not be giving really useful advice if the Inquisitor doesn't like up with that view. 

 

massacre is such a dirty word, we prefer the word genocide....  and the lamentations of the women is what all inquisitors strive for, the green glowy hand must be passed on for future generations to close fade holes

[In Exile]

He did it because DA2's writing is horrible that's why.

 

"Hawke": We've done it! We pushed back the templars! 

"Orsino": Amazing - we have a chance to make it ou... 

Director: CUUT!!

Director: Did you even bother to read the script? 

"Orsino": Sure I did. It says right here... *flipping pages*... that after Hawke saves the inner chamber, I .... (monotone) go completely insane and transform myself into The Harvester by killing everyone Hawke saved and using their flesh to create a horrid abomination. 

"Orsino": *Sigh*. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I know that the finer points of Chantry law haven't been strictly stated but there has to be some guideline about the amount of time a Knight Commander has to wait before invoking and then carrying out the Rite by themselves. If you remember Greggor's Circle was legitamitly out of control and he was still waiting for the Ok from the Grand Cleric before actually starting it. The fact that he was waiting for the go ahead even when things going that nuts tells me that there's a legal waiting time that has to be taken.

 

I'd also wager to guess that the law strictly states that its a means of last resort and since every Templar in the city knew the Circle wasn't in any dangers of going crazy there was no valid reason for doing so. The death of a Grand Cleric or Revered mother doesn't automatically give a Commander the legal right to Annul the Cicle just because.

 

Yes Cullen didn't believe Meredeth was right.... but he helped her anyway so that's actually even worse for the argument of Cullen's ability to be an adviser. If he followed her believing she was right that would be one thing but to believe that she's wrong and to murder mages anyway makes him a coward and a murderer doesn't it?

 

If he believed she was wrong the least he could do is step aside and say he wasn't going to participate, but he didn't.

 

Greagoir was waiting because there was actually a Grand Cleric in Ferelden to wait for, so he could not invoke or carry out the right, he also didn't have the men. Obviously the point of the Waiting is that the Grand Cleric may just be out of the city (or something) and can be sent for, in the case of it taking too long, someone lower down the chain can Invoke the right. If she is dead then waiting for her isn't really an opinion. 

 

The Circle was full of Blood Mages and abominations including it's First Enchanter so even if that was not the reason for it she could always have argued that it was indeed necessary. "last resort" is a very subjective idea, obviously someone decides when it's time to invoke the right as a last resort. 

 

I don't see how this affects his advise. Advisers are meant to give their opinion but ultimately leave the decision to the person they advise. He wasn't really in a position to give his opinion to Meredith because he was not in an advisory role. Do I think he should have done something earlier? Yes but so should have many many other people. 

[In Exile]

I personally don't mind DA ]['s writing very much (I like the whole "sometimes you still lose" vibe), I just wish they didn't force you down that path. It's silly for Orsino to go insane, but since we know he was already dabbling in necromancy, it's not inconceivable that he would snap.

 

I just wish we'd been given the choice to not side with either group. I could live with his poorly foreshadowed flip-out, but we should have been able to help neither group.

 

Well, Meredith did threaten to execute you on the spot if you didn't side with her, so at the very least they justified the forced choice. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I didn't mind that Orsino went mad, the point was that everyone there was mad but it was just the way it was implemented. As In Exile said, it made no sense for him to do that when he did if you sided with the mages. They could have at least tried to get that to make a bit more sense. I guess that could have been because of the rushed development. 

[Xilizhra]

I didn't mind that Orsino went mad, the point was that everyone there was mad but it was just the way it was implemented. As In Exile said, it made no sense for him to do that when he did if you sided with the mages. They could have at least tried to get that to make a bit more sense. I guess that could have been because of the rushed development. 

Orsino was never supposed to have been a boss if you sided with the mages; it was rather crudely forced in.