490 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

As far as I am concerned, Cullen can mistrust mages all he wants. He has every right to. Most certainly my Warden mistrusted them, as did my Hawke--but I didn't let that mistrust interfere with my decision making process. Cullen could be the same. His job is provide military strategy and tactics in advisory form, which I believe him to be qualified for. As does Cassandra. More importantly, as does the writers who created his story--a story we know very little about since the game isn't even out. It makes sense to wait and see how his character has developed before people begin disqualifying him. 

[GVulture]

She didn't choose the Chantry over her lover. She's not supposed to Work for the cause she believes in?
And no, while very religious her primary reason to join the Chantry was for help her friend and saviour, Justinia. Is very possible she won't continue to work for the Chantry after the events of DAI. Plus, the Inquisition is separated from the Chantry, and since Leliana is in the Inquisition...

NPCs aren't allowed to choose anything over the PC. Didn't you get the memo? I mean, just look at all the hate that Kaidan and Ashley get for staying loyal to the Alliance during Mass Effect 2.

[GVulture]

There is no excuse for Orsino, really. He was hiding blood mages, he was constantly undermining the Templars to the point where they had to tighten the noose. He allowed blood mages, maleficarum, and apostates to run around in his city. He assisted blood mages and maleficarum to escape the Circle to run loose in the City. Chances are likely that he was a long practicing blood mage and necromancer himself. At the very least, he was giving a necromancer/blood magic texts to a practicing necromancer and serial killer.

 

Orsino, the actual main villain of Dragon Age II.

[thetinyevil]

There is no excuse for Orsino, really. He was hiding blood mages, he was constantly undermining the Templars to the point where they had to tighten the noose. He allowed blood mages, maleficarum, and apostates to run around in his city. He assisted blood mages and maleficarum to escape the Circle to run loose in the City. Chances are likely that he was a long practicing blood mage and necromancer himself. At the very least, he was giving a necromancer/blood magic texts to a practicing necromancer and serial killer.

 

Orsino, the actual main villain of Dragon Age II.

Yes I can just see the conversation between Orsino and Meredith.

 

"Meredith, I unintentally helped a blood mage he is Kirkwa...(gawww)" Head thumps on the floor.

 

"The first enchanter is a blood mage! Grand Cleric I need the ROA."

 

"Orsino was a blood mage, You have permission"

 

Templars kill every mage in the Gallows.

[Xilizhra]

There is no excuse for Orsino, really. He was hiding blood mages, he was constantly undermining the Templars to the point where they had to tighten the noose. He allowed blood mages, maleficarum, and apostates to run around in his city. He assisted blood mages and maleficarum to escape the Circle to run loose in the City. Chances are likely that he was a long practicing blood mage and necromancer himself. At the very least, he was giving a necromancer/blood magic texts to a practicing necromancer and serial killer.

 

Orsino, the actual main villain of Dragon Age II.

Absolutely none of that can be proven, and the last is flat-out wrong: he only gave texts to Quentin before Quentin's serial killer phase.

[thetinyevil]

Also the Nevarin mages study necromancy. So someone else looking into wouldn't be so strange. Just what he did with it was evil beyond all measure

[GVulture]

Absolutely none of that can be proven, and the last is flat-out wrong: he only gave texts to Quentin before Quentin's serial killer phase.

Actuallllly. Most of it is proven in Act III. And the letter from the description "was the most recent" on the pile of stuff you found. Considering that Quentin was in operation for at least three years... Uhm.. hmm... no. He knew. He was helping him during his killer phase. You can even confront him about it during The Last Straw because he ADMITS to helping blood mages in the city. I can't remember his exact lines but it was something along the lines of him wanting to mess things up for Meredith. Vis a vis... undermining Templars to unsettle Meredith. Not uncommon in a Circle, but he was doing it to a point beyond his ability to keep the City safe. One of the mages he wants you to protect was an ACTUAL blood mage that was going after people with an intent to kill. Not to mention, again, he ADMITS to it.

 

The only thing that can't be proven is the length of his use of blood magic and possible necromancy (depending on if you consider turning into a Harvester an act of necromancy or not). At the very least, he was well versed enough in the texts he gave Quentin to know that they were dangerous in the wrong hands. Which, if you consider the rest of his actions, the "wrong hands" in this instance isn't a mage with evil intentions, but rather a Templar who might discover them.

[Hellion Rex]

Also the Nevarin mages study necromancy. So someone else looking into wouldn't be so strange. Just what he did with it was evil beyond all measure

The Nevarran Mortalitasi are an exception as they exist outside of the Circle, and are under the aegis of the Nevarran throne. People think they're extremely weird/illegal, but the group has the backing of the throne, so they are safe.

[sunnydxmen]

i like cullen cause he is flawed an not perfect after all no one is perfect so why try to be, you may not like him but your gonna have to work with him like soldiers in the real world dont always get along but they dont allow that to interfere with there job they stay focus.

[LobselVith8]

Calling them heathens is a far cry from refusing to work with them. We have no evidence that he's unwilling to work with non-Andrasteins (how DO you spell that, anyway?).

 

I was addressing his previous characterization in terms of Cullen possibly having an issue with a protagonist who isn't culturally or religiously Andrastian. It's the kind of character flaw that can cloud someone's judgement and decisions, and could be a hindrance rather than an asset to the Inquisitor if that's the case. However, I also addressed he may have changed considerably since that time, and that this may not even be an issue.

[Xilizhra]

Actuallllly. Most of it is proven in Act III. And the letter from the description "was the most recent" on the pile of stuff you found. Considering that Quentin was in operation for at least three years... Uhm.. hmm... no. He knew. He was helping him during his killer phase. You can even confront him about it during The Last Straw because he ADMITS to helping blood mages in the city. I can't remember his exact lines but it was something along the lines of him wanting to mess things up for Meredith.

 

The only thing that can't be proven is the length of his use of blood magic and possible necromancy (depending on if you consider turning into a Harvester an act of necromancy or not). At the very least, he was well versed enough in the texts he gave Quentin to know that they were dangerous in the wrong hands. Which, if you consider the rest of his actions, the "wrong hands" in this instance isn't a mage with evil intentions, but rather a Templar who might discover them.

Nope, he didn't do so then (also, there's no "most recent" line from what I remember). Quentin explicitly says to Gascard that he sank into despair after the death of his wife and became academically useless; the Harvester ritual, while having parallels to his attempt to resurrect his wife, is too different for him to have come up with it while he was obsessively focusing on bringing her back. And Orsino cut ties with Quentin after receiving the Harvester ritual. So all that had to have happened long before Quentin's snapping.

Also, Orsino's trying to stop blood mage conspiracies in Best Served Cold.

[GVulture]

I was addressing his previous characterization in terms of Cullen possibly having an issue with a protagonist who isn't culturally or religiously Andrastian. It's the kind of character flaw that can cloud someone's judgement and decisions, and could be a hindrance rather than an asset to the Inquisitor if that's the case. However, I also addressed he may have changed considerably since that time, and that this may not even be an issue.

Case could be made in him allowing himself to be swallowed up in Chantry doctrine as a defense mechanism. Rather than reacting for himself, he could parrot things without thought. By the time Act II and III rolls around, Cullen is showing signs of thoughtful reflection rather than just going through the motions.

[Hellion Rex]

I was addressing his previous characterization in terms of Cullen possibly having an issue with a protagonist who isn't culturally or religiously Andrastian. It's the kind of character flaw that can cloud someone's judgement and decisions, and could be a hindrance rather than an asset to the Inquisitor if that's the case. However, I also addressed he may have changed considerably since that time, and that this may not even be an issue.

This DG post gives me hope that Cullen might have changed considerably

http://dgaider.tumbl...d-and-evil-come

[thetinyevil]

The Nevarran Mortalitasi are an exception as they exist outside of the Circle, and are under the aegis of the Nevarran throne. People think they're extremely weird/illegal, but the group has the backing of the throne, so they are safe.

But it shows that necromancy is studied. 

[GVulture]

Nope, he didn't do so then (also, there's no "most recent" line from what I remember). Quentin explicitly says to Gascard that he sank into despair after the death of his wife and became academically useless; the Harvester ritual, while having parallels to his attempt to resurrect his wife, is too different for him to have come up with it while he was obsessively focusing on bringing her back. And Orsino cut ties with Quentin after receiving the Harvester ritual. So all that had to have happened long before Quentin's snapping.

Also, Orsino's trying to stop blood mage conspiracies in Best Served Cold.

IIRC, Hawke comments that it looks recent when you get it, not in the codex entry itself. 

 

You have no proof of any of that stuff either. You're assuming that Quentin gave Orsino the Harvester ritual and that it wasn't something he picked up during his own studies. He would have had to known what texts would be helpful for Quentin, after all.

 

Of course that is still speculation, but don't ignore the fact that Orsino admits to helping Quentin during his serial killing phase. Flat out says that he couldn't let him be discovered in case he brought down Meredith's wrath on them all. That's not cutting ties.

 

Meredith was doing her job. Trying to protect her city and her charges, maybe a bit harshly and a lot of tough love but Orsino was flat out doing bad and illegal things. No excuse for him. Definitely the worse out of the two.

[Xilizhra]

IIRC, Hawke comments that it looks recent when you get it, not in the codex entry itself. 

I certainly remember nothing.

 

 

You have no proof of any of that stuff either. You're assuming that Quentin gave Orsino the Harvester ritual and that it wasn't something he picked up during his own studies. He would have had to known what texts would be helpful for Quentin, after all.

"Quentin's research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside. But now I see there is no other way."

 

 

Of course that is still speculation, but don't ignore the fact that Orsino admits to helping Quentin during his serial killing phase. Flat out says that he couldn't let him be discovered in case he brought down Meredith's wrath on them all. That's not cutting ties.

By not alerting the templars, I know. But that isn't academic collaboration. It doesn't even say that Orsino wasn't looking for non-templar ways of stopping him.

 

 

Meredith was doing her job. Trying to protect her city and her charges, maybe a bit harshly and a lot of tough love but Orsino was flat out doing bad and illegal things. No excuse for him. Definitely the worse out of the two.

Meredith had the flimsy shield of horribly unjust laws. She's an utter fiend. Orsino screwed up and did damage, but doesn't come close to her capacity for evil.

[KBomb]

I certainly remember nothing.

 

 

"Quentin's research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside. But now I see there is no other way."

 

 

By not alerting the templars, I know. But that isn't academic collaboration. It doesn't even say that Orsino wasn't looking for non-templar ways of stopping him.

 

 

Meredith had the flimsy shield of horribly unjust laws. She's an utter fiend. Orsino screwed up and did damage, but doesn't come close to her capacity for evil.

I don't think Meredith was anymore more evil than Orsino. They both had reasons for their convictions, they both went to an extreme to hold on to them, and in the end--they proved each other's fears right. 

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't this about Cullen, though?

[GVulture]

Meredith had the flimsy shield of horribly unjust laws. She's an utter fiend. Orsino screwed up and did damage, but doesn't come close to her capacity for evil.

What exactly was it proven that she was doing? There are rumors of her coming down harsh and there are rumors about her making mages Tranquil after their Harrowing but there isn't any proof of her doing any of this. The EVIL Templars in her organization were individuals and ones that might have slipped her notice. There IS proof of her rolling her eyes and ignoring Alrik's Tranquil Solution so one could make the argument that if she thought that idea was a nuts then maybe the rumor of her tranquiling mages willy nilly is false?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If Hawke sides with the templars, Orsino says that he knew about Quinten and kept his existence hidden because he "didn't want to give Meredith more ammunition," which is both a nonsensical excuse and criminally disgustingly negligent even if it is true.

 

If Bethany is in the Circle at the time there's also an addition to the scene where she says "But you could have stopped him! You could have saved her!" And he replies by apologizing and saying he didn't realize the extent of his derangement until it was too late. So yeah, he definitely knew about him and he is directly responsible for keeping him hidden, but I don't think that implies that he knew what he was doing from the very start. But the fact that he kept him hidden even after he found out, means he's responsible too.

[Xilizhra]

What exactly was it proven that she was doing? There are rumors of her coming down harsh and there are rumors about her making mages Tranquil after their Harrowing but there isn't any proof of her doing any of this. The EVIL Templars in her organization were individuals and ones that might have slipped her notice. There IS proof of her rolling her eyes and ignoring Alrik's Tranquil Solution so one could make the argument that if she thought that idea was a nuts then maybe the rumor of her tranquiling mages willy nilly is false?

Well, we know she tried to kill everyone who had sheltered any fleeing mages (A Noble Agenda), had raided said families even years before that, sent Karras to massacre the escaped Starkhaven mages... there's a fair bit.

[LobselVith8]

"Quentin's research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside. But now I see there is no other way."

 

What was the purpose of the ritual? And how did Orsino even know Quentin? Given how Gascard's note suggests Quentin may have been from the Circle of Kirkwall (given his search for Quentin), I wonder how the two even met. Was Quentin in good standing? Is that why he was permitted to marry, when some Circles forbid it? Did Orsino know about the loss of Quentin's wife? Why did Orsino take such measures to provide books to Quentin? Was the ritual intended to benefit the Circle in some way - a ritual that weaponized the person would be of benefit to the Wardens or the Chantry, permitting the Circle more freedoms in exchange for this discovery?

 

Frankly, there are some significant holes in the story. You could make the same argument about Meredith finding out about the lyrium idol, making contact with Bartrand, purchasing it, and then fashioning it into a sword that nobody noticed until the finale of Act III. The unanswered questions simply continue to pile up, and all we can do is speculate to fill in the blanks.

 

Meredith had the flimsy shield of horribly unjust laws. She's an utter fiend. Orsino screwed up and did damage, but doesn't come close to her capacity for evil.

 

You think Orsino assumed Meredith would have annulled the Circle had he come forward?

[GVulture]

Well, we know she tried to kill everyone who had sheltered any fleeing mages (A Noble Agenda), had raided said families even years before that, sent Karras to massacre the escaped Starkhaven mages... there's a fair bit.

Hah, I never got that quest, I either sided with Meredith or called them both stupid. I guess it defaults to Meredith if you don't back either one? I don't remember it at all.

 

Also, does Karras say that he is there on Meredith's orders to kill the mages? Or is that just his preferred method of dealing with them? Because two different things in a jerk headed Templar claiming that Thrask will get in trouble for disagreeing with him and Thrask actually disobeying orders.

 

That said, the entirety of the DA II narrative is so deliberately vague and grey instead of black and white. There is lot both sides did to antagonize the other but neither party is innocent. I just make the argument that the actual, legitimately harmful things physically done BY ORSINO far outweighs what Meredith actually has done. She may have had subordinates that took things too far, but she herself? Guilty of buying paranoia inducing lyrium idols. She didn't aid and abet any wrong doings that we KNOW she was aware of. The evidence of the contrary is actually in her favor.

 

Which is why... Cullen isn't a horrible person for not standing up to her sooner. (see what I did there?)

[Xilizhra]

Hah, I never got that quest, I either sided with Meredith or called them both stupid. I guess it defaults to Meredith if you don't back either one? I don't remember it at all.

 

Also, does Karras say that he is there on Meredith's orders to kill the mages? Or is that just his preferred method of dealing with them? Because two different things in a jerk headed Templar claiming that Thrask will get in trouble for disagreeing with him and Thrask actually disobeying orders.

 

That said, the entirety of the DA II narrative is so deliberately vague and grey instead of black and white. There is lot both sides did to antagonize the other but neither party is innocent. I just make the argument that the actual, legitimately harmful things physically done BY ORSINO far outweighs what Meredith actually has done. She may have had subordinates that took things too far, but she herself? Guilty of buying paranoia inducing lyrium idols. She didn't aid and abet any wrong doings that we KNOW she was aware of. The evidence of the contrary is actually in her favor.

 

Which is why... Cullen isn't a horrible person for not standing up to her sooner. (see what I did there?)

Karras is first listed as "a great crony of Meredith," and Thrask also said that Meredith would consider him justified in killing all of the Starkhaven mages if they were found hiding in the caves. And Meredith did so many things wrong herself that we don't really need to blame Alrik on her.