30 réponses à ce sujet

[Ponce de Leon]

So like I get this man-bro-nerd in my team and he's like all cool and stuff and wants to be bff with humanity, compassionate and whatnot and then after half the game I go and like do his loyalty stuff and he goes full Rambo-modo and destroys things boom-boom, at which point me cavalier of justice and "good/evil doesn't matter anyway" paladin decide to punch him and save some folks. Then he goes like "dude, seriously? This is totally not cool with me, I'm not bff anymore >=( " and I go like "Man dude, we like rescued half the world" and then he's like "no apricot juice for you anymore! D: ".

So then what happens is Illusive man decides to not put him in the list of social security therefore he'd dead in the suicide mission (which in itself is kind of an oxymoron, if it's a suicide mission, then how do you survive?)

 

So what happens then is, due to the fact that my character is biotic, I use biotic reload, and reload previously saved game, and kill half the planet just for the sake and purpose of seeing nerd Zaeed walk like a boss out of flames. But buglady decides this is not a good way to do stuff so I have to use biotic reload again, and then I traverse through half the universe saving alien kittens on weird cactuses (Cacti? Cactus...ss..s?) and get all them blue points, which btw, heal scars... being good heals scars... ok.

So my real issue is the following : granted that BioWare can't really decide on three different paths being good evil and neutrality, what the hell am I supposed to do with this guy? First he goes like goodie two shoes then he sees this guy that stole a candy from him 20 years ago and he has a grudge for and goes like "Shepturd, you ain't pulling this joke on me again, I want my candy back and I want it now."

 

 

tl;dl - Paragon/Renegade ought to get a serious rebalancing yo.

 

Thank you for understanding and if you want your own glass of apricot juice, then befriend Zaeed... be kind to him he's kind of a wuss.

[Sir DeLoria]

Wait, what? Who is buglady? Why is Zaeed a nerd? And what on earth are you talking about?

[Ponce de Leon]

Dat reaction gif

 

Anyway, I'll try to be less ragy and more concrete and reiterate :

 

Essentially the meat of this whole thread is understanding the morality system used in Mass Effect 2 and why I think it's wrong. Zaeed's loyalty mission requires, as described by guide, a 'high paragon score to complete the "paragon" way'.

The problem comes mostly through the fact that it's not necessarily true, as the morality system in the game works of a percentage instead of a 'skill check' so to speak.

 

You require X amount of paragon/renegade score to charm/intimidate, but that X amount is related to all the opportunities that you had thus far. So if you could have 200 paragon points/200 renegade points, to get through that check you require a whole percentage of that, a system that if not explained at the early-game would not only confuse most players but also entirely discourages neutrality, such as in not picking sides in any given situation.

 

But for an old-time gamer that has played most BioWare games I know that was ALWAYS the issue, and BioWare just loves their black and white, while absolutely canceling out gray.

 

The whole deal with the thread is simple - I am trying to roleplay a game and I am trying to ask a question here in the same role-playing fashion. I try to add a bit of flavour from what little I know from certain characters, like Zaeed, who has proven to be a genuinely nice guy overall, but decided to go full revenge mode in his loyalty mission. The whole mission is super contradictory to his whole character, and is contradictory to a system that has lots of potential yet untapped. We have :

- Good : save the factory

- Evil : Hunt down Vido

 

But why not find a solution to both in a neutral fashion, like, splitting team or simply adding a timer to rescue those people while still having a chance to get Zaeed's Revenge going. It's only Black and White, so we either risk our friendship with Zaeed or we get our delicious apricot juice. I need to make some fanart of Zaeed serving apricot juice now.

As for Buglady, that is my inner self saying how wrong I did by killing half the planet to just keep myself friends with Zaeed. And my inner moral concious self says that I'd rather be best friends with Zaeed while still not making people suffer. Yet I can't have both.

[Sir DeLoria]

Oh ok, I get it. Yeah, the way the mission is set up is pretty weird and it doesn't really make much sense (kinda like why you couldn't save both Kaidan and Ash). Even with a very high Paragon score, it's hard to make that morality check. The only thing I can recommend is playing as an Infiltrator and getting the operative perk, which automatically lets you pass all speech/morality checks regardless of P/R points.

But you're not really killing half the planet, you're just sacrificing a few dozen factory workers. Tragic, but really not that bad of a sacrifice.

[HTTP 404]

Zaeed's loyalty mission is better off done earlier (before Horizon) as a paragon.  The paragon check is lower then but you still need to build some paragon points leading up to it though.  Btw, my paragon shep loves Zaeed because he puts Zaeed in his place and I like to think Zaeed respects that.

[themikefest]

I usually get Zaeed before Horizon and do his loyalty mission after Horizon. Of course if you wanted to, you can recruit him and do his loyalty mission after the suicide mission. Heck you can even have him die on his loyalty mission.

[AlanC9]

But why not find a solution to both in a neutral fashion, like, splitting team or simply adding a timer to rescue those people while still having a chance to get Zaeed's Revenge going. It's only Black and White, so we either risk our friendship with Zaeed or we get our delicious apricot juice. I need to make some fanart of Zaeed serving apricot juice now.

Why should the player always be able to do everything he wants to do? What's wrong with occasionally forcing the player to actually choose between options?

[Farangbaa]

Oh ok, I get it. Yeah, the way the mission is set up is pretty weird and it doesn't really make much sense (kinda like why you couldn't save both Kaidan and Ash). Even with a very high Paragon score, it's hard to make that morality check. The only thing I can recommend is playing as an Infiltrator and getting the operative perk, which automatically lets you pass all speech/morality checks regardless of P/R points.

But you're not really killing half the planet, you're just sacrificing a few dozen factory workers. Tragic, but really not that bad of a sacrifice.

WHAT IS THIS MAGIC?!

(I've never played infiltrator)

[SporkFu]

I have played an infiltrator in ME1. I've never heard of that perk. Curious now, too. 

[Farangbaa]

It's nothing, I checked the wikia.

It's just the same as the other classes, one gives you 100% bonus, the other 70%. No beating every check magic

[Remix-General Aetius]

what the hell am I supposed to do with this guy?

 

there's a Paragon interrupt that can convince Zaeed it was the right thing to save the people & let Santiago go & retain his loyalty. as long as you have enough paragon points that is.

 

but where's the fun in that? in my playthroughs I've just been shunned by Kaidan on Horizon, so my maleShep is feeling a bit murderous right about that time.

[Carmen_Willow]

I Paragon, paragon, paragon my way through the tutorial, then I go to Omega, and I do Zaeed's mission before I do anything else. That way the ratio of Paragon to Renegade is high enough that I can Paragon him (save the people in the plant) and he stays loyal. It's my least favorite mission, but if you do it early (because there are things you want to renegade later) you can keep his loyalty.

[Farangbaa]

I don't think I've ever saved the workers.

A few things are in play here:
-Almost all my Shepards are extremely pissed off in ME2 at having to work for Cerberus and have a general '*bleep* it all'-additude, especially in the beginning of the game where the Collector threat is still vague at best (usually the time I do that mission). At that point he really wouldn't care for the workers
-But even when I do it later: extra heavy weapons ammo or assault rifle damage? I hardly ever use heavy weapons, all my Shepards use assault rifles in the end.

My current Shep probably will save the workers. One of the few personality traits I had set in stone for this character was that if there's an option to save civilians, he will. That and that he hates AI... so he might be so fed up with having to work for that group that killed his entire squad AND has an AI equipped with a ship that innocents start paying the price.

Guess we'll have to find out later

[Treacherous J Slither]

I've never saved the workers. The point of my Shep being there in the first place is to assist Zaeed with his mission. My current Shep will try to save them though. I'm attempting a Paragon run.

 

@TC: What makes you think Zaeed is a nice guy?

[KrrKs]

The point of my Shep being there in the first place is to assist Zaeed with his mission.

Well, when first meeting Zaeed, he states this mission is freeing the refinery (aka the place and the people) from the Blue suns.

-Then he blows the place up, screwing up half of his mission.

 

Depending on Shep's decision the mission is either a total failure, with Zaeed getting his revenge, or still a disaster -but at least the Contractors workers survived in this case to rebuild the place.

[Bizantura]

I think it brings more "spice" to the game not being able to control everything.  It's one of Bioware strengths in story telling.  But in Zaeeds case you do have options even as stated above and kill him.

[DeathScepter]

I don't know if this is weird or not. Last night, i had sad dream with a Female Shepard, listening to Hurt by Johnny Cash and having a breakdown while Remembering Zaed and yes she was mourning Zaed. Somehow it was during the Citadel DLC.

[nerd_gawdess]

I liked Zaeed...the choices sucked, but I was pure paragon so it wasn't a big deal. ...i see what you mean , but I think it was one of those real life type forces where what we wanted just wasn't an option. I think both task were doable, Bioware just wanted to force our hand.

[Probe Away]

How is Zaeed a nice guy at the start?  When you meet him he's beating up on a Batarian bounty, who he subsequently shoots in the leg.

 

I like his character, but he is not really a nice/nerdy dude.

[Dabrikishaw]

Zaeed's loyalty mission is better off done earlier (before Horizon) as a paragon.  The paragon check is lower then but you still need to build some paragon points leading up to it though.  Btw, my paragon shep loves Zaeed because he puts Zaeed in his place and I like to think Zaeed respects that.

That's normally what I do. 

[Sigulator]

I usually get Zaeed before Horizon and do his loyalty mission after Horizon. Of course if you wanted to, you can recruit him and do his loyalty mission after the suicide mission. Heck you can even have him die on his loyalty mission.

 

On HIS loyalty mission, or the suicide mission? Also how does Zaeed die on his own loyalty mission?

[ME_Fan]

On HIS loyalty mission, or the suicide mission? Also how does Zaeed die on his own loyalty mission?

If you go to save the workers rather than kill Vido, Zaeeds gets stuck under a falling beam. You can choose to leave him to burn, but only if you have already been through the suicide mission, afaik.

[themikefest]

On HIS loyalty mission, or the suicide mission? Also how does Zaeed die on his own loyalty mission?

Zaeed can die during the suicide mission. He can only die on his loyalty mission if you save the workers and its after the suicide mission. If he and one other squadmate are the only ones alive he will always survive his loyalty mission since you have to have 2 squadmates alive to import into ME3. So if you want to let him die on his loyalty mission, have 2 other squadmates alive

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UXt1OT1K3ss

[Stronglav]

Who cares about some workers?You can always hire new ones.

Zaeed loyalty is more critical.