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[MisterJB]

Has anyone noticed how the Dalish mythos match their current lifestyle and go against what we know of their ancient civilization?

 

If you were to read through the codex-entries detailing their legends of their gods, you'll notice a common theme.

Nearly all of the tales speak of bows and woodcrafting and of hunting.

 

And yet, if we assume these are legends that were told in Arlathan, then where are the tales of builders or of steel? Are we supposed to believe the elves would have never done anything with the minerals of Thedas? Was Arlathan built of wood?

Then, there is Felassan. His description of Arlathen is "the richest district in Val-Royeaux".

 

So, are the elven tales not suspiciously tailored for their current experiences rather than them being passed down from the ancient elves?

[Xilizhra]

Has anyone noticed how the Dalish mythos match their current lifestyle and go against what we know of their ancient civilization?

 

If you were to read through the codex-entries detailing their legends of their gods, you'll notice a common theme.

Nearly all of the tales speak of bows and woodcrafting and of hunting.

 

And yet, if we assume these are legends that were told in Arlathan, then where are the tales of builders or of steel? Are we supposed to believe the elves would have never done anything with the minerals of Thedas? Was Arlathan built of wood?

Then, there is Felassan. His description of Arlathen is "the richest district in Val-Royeaux".

 

So, are the elven tales not suspiciously tailored for their current experiences rather than them being passed down from the ancient elves?

The Dalish have ironbark, wood with the strength of steel. It's rare now, but nothing indicates that it was rare thousands of years ago in Arlathan, or that the elves couldn't just transmute the wood that was there already into ironbark. And if wood can provide all their building materials, there's no need to go digging... and if they ever did need any of that, they could just trade with the dwarves for it.

[Lee80]

They have lost most of the records and stories of their past, it's very likely what they do have is a reflection of their current situation more then the factual way things were.  (Just basing that on my own understanding of the Elves, so I could be way off...)

[Gannayev of Dreams]

All of the Elven ruins you visit in the games, and what is described in various books and in the extended universe, are constructed primarily of stone.  They were undoubtedly city-builders that utilized the same materials and many of the same techniques that conventional civilizations of Thedas use.

 

Their lore probably originated with the reformation after the utter collapse of ancient elven society.  They basically had to start from scratch, so their current lore only reflects history from the starting point of their nomadic diaspora.

[MisterJB]

The Dalish have ironbark, wood with the strength of steel. It's rare now, but nothing indicates that it was rare thousands of years ago in Arlathan, or that the elves couldn't just transmute the wood that was there already into ironbark. And if wood can provide all their building materials, there's no need to go digging... and if they ever did need any of that, they could just trade with the dwarves for it.

And no elf ever adorned himself with precious materials? The statue fountains Felassan describes were also made of wood?

 

And then there is the fact that hunters are idolized in most of these tales which makes sense for a mobile society like the current dalish but not a sedentary agriculture one.

[Xilizhra]

And no elf ever adorned himself with precious materials? The statue fountains Felassan describes were also made of wood?

 

And then there is the fact that hunters are idolized in most of these tales which makes sense for a mobile society like the current dalish but not a sedentary agriculture one.

Like the Maker, it remains a mystery. It's entirely possible that a lot of elven legends were reinterpreted over the years as the previous gods changed to fill new roles... however, it would be exquisitely hypocritical of Bioware to ruthlessly deconstruct Dalish religion while remaining respectfully vague about Andrastianism, so if we are to learn more about the past of things like this, as I hope we do, it'd best be evenhanded.

[Tenebrae]

Has anyone noticed how the Dalish mythos match their current lifestyle and go against what we know of their ancient civilization?

 

If you were to read through the codex-entries detailing their legends of their gods, you'll notice a common theme.

Nearly all of the tales speak of bows and woodcrafting and of hunting.

 

And yet, if we assume these are legends that were told in Arlathan, then where are the tales of builders or of steel? Are we supposed to believe the elves would have never done anything with the minerals of Thedas? Was Arlathan built of wood?

Then, there is Felassan. His description of Arlathen is "the richest district in Val-Royeaux".

 

So, are the elven tales not suspiciously tailored for their current experiences rather than them being passed down from the ancient elves?

Assuming their history is fabricated the initial elven leadership might of thought it prudent to inspire their people with tales of a fabricated past, and why not?

 

If the elves believe that their current lifestyle is a mirror of the days of old and a tribute to the glory of Arlathen they would be more invested in the "cause", and less likely to join their brethren in the city.

 

They might have to adjust their story if and when they gain a new homeland, they can always claim they simply misinterpreted the writings they "found" and mistook them for an account of the days of Arlathen when in fact they were a records of an even older elven civilization which in turn grew to become what is known as Arlathen...

 

Its all quite simple when you have always claimed that most of your history was lost, who is going to prove otherwise? there is no one left, and if any ancient Arlathen elves somehow appear and decide to contradict them they can always claim those elves are imposters and shemlen agents trying to destroy their new homeland, and who can prove otherwise?

[Mistic]

I think it's convenient, but not really suspicious, since it's something it happens in real life. Societies adapt their fundational mithologies to what they know best. It's clear that right now the current Dalish religion and culture doesn't have much in common with the original Arlathan.

 

There's also another theory, although it seems less likely: that those are really the original tales and it's just that they reminded the Arlathan elves of the times when they were nomads. It also happens in real life: the Bible was written when the Hebrews were already a sedentary and agricultural society, but the Old Testament is full of stories about the good old days of shepherding. Something similar happened to the Greeks, although they had their heroic tales set in the Bronze Age.

 

Because of those ancient stories, Engels, in his 'The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State' (1884) actually thought that aryans and semites invented agriculture in Mesopotamia, Europe and India to have fodder for their livestock. Of course, thanks to the advances in archaeology, we know now that they were just nomad tribes of sheperds that took over agricultural societies who were urban and more ancient.

[MisterJB]

Like the Maker, it remains a mystery. It's entirely possible that a lot of elven legends were reinterpreted over the years as the previous gods changed to fill new roles... however, it would be exquisitely hypocritical of Bioware to ruthlessly deconstruct Dalish religion while remaining respectfully vague about Andrastianism, so if we are to learn more about the past of things like this, as I hope we do, it'd best be evenhanded.

 

Corypheus and Andraste's Ashes.

If anything, Bioware likes to raise the possibility that maybe the Chantry has a point.

 

After all, the Chantry only spread the tale of how Tevinter created the Blight after the Third one so, there is a very good chance it could have been propaganda...except Magisters did physically enter the Fade and were Tainted because of it.
 

[Xilizhra]

Corypheus and Andraste's Ashes.

If anything, Bioware likes to raise the possibility that maybe the Chantry has a point.

Which is even worse, as well as directly contrary to what they claimed they would do.

Not, of course, that either piece of evidence is all that compelling on its own. Perhaps we'll learn more about the Urn in DAI.

[MisterJB]

Assuming their history is fabricated the initial elven leadership might of thought it prudent to inspire their people with tales of a fabricated past, and why not?

 

If the elves believe that their current lifestyle is a mirror of the days of old and a tribute to the glory of Arlathen they would be more invested in the "cause", and less likely to join their brethren in the city.

 

They might have to adjust their story if and when they gain a new homeland, they can always claim they simply misinterpreted the writings they "found" and mistook them for an account of the days of Arlathen when in fact they were a records of an even older elven civilization which in turn grew to become what is known as Arlathen...

 

Its all quite simple when you have always claimed that most of your history was lost, who is going to prove otherwise? there is no one left, and if any ancient Arlathen elves somehow appear and decide to contradict them they can always claim those elves are imposters and shemlen agents trying to destroy their new homeland, and who can prove otherwise?

Oh, I'm not criticizing them. Just pointing out how illogical their claims are which leads to the conclusion you reached.

That, most likely, these are all tall tales reconstructed from lost mithos.

Maybe there was an elven godess named Andruil but it's unlikely she would have been a godess of the hunt in a society whose main food source should have been agriculture or meat from livestock.
 

[LobselVith8]

Has anyone noticed how the Dalish mythos match their current lifestyle and go against what we know of their ancient civilization?

 

If you were to read through the codex-entries detailing their legends of their gods, you'll notice a common theme.

Nearly all of the tales speak of bows and woodcrafting and of hunting.

 

And yet, if we assume these are legends that were told in Arlathan, then where are the tales of builders or of steel? Are we supposed to believe the elves would have never done anything with the minerals of Thedas? Was Arlathan built of wood?

 

The stories about woodcrafting and hunting aren't unusual when you consider we find Elven Ruins in the Brecillian Forest that housed the Eluvian (from the time when the elves stretched across the expanse of Thedas), and another set of ruins that are also located in the wilderness (the one where the elven phylactery is found).

[Reznore57]

Chances are the Dalish and Ancient Elves have very little in common.

I doubt the Ancient Elves were so fond of hunters/andruil , because I don't think they needed hunters all that much.

It's also possible they didn't worship those gods at all...

We have very little information about the Ancient Elves , and  the Dalish well , even if they are studying the whole thing...the fact they are nomad , living mostly in isolation (even from others DAlish) is not helping.

We saw Merrill and the Eluvian...another clan had a book about it, Morrigan stole it.

Did Merrill know about this book?I Don't think so.

[LobselVith8]

If anything, Bioware likes to raise the possibility that maybe the Chantry has a point.

 

Perhaps they can do the same for the Dalish, instead of the stories being so human-centric and glossing over the views of the People.

[Reznore57]

On a side note even if the Dalish are somewhat wrong about Arlathan etc...I don't think it makes their faith less valid.

It helps them survive and endure and probably gave them some hope.

And some Dalish myth are closed to some Chantry myth anyway.

The Maker and Fen 'Harel cast some gods away.

[Tenebrae]

Oh, I'm not criticizing them. Just pointing out how illogical their claims are which leads to the conclusion you reached.

That, most likely, these are all tall tales reconstructed from lost mithos.

Maybe there was an elven godess named Andruil but it's unlikely she would have been a godess of the hunt in a society whose main food source should have been agriculture or meat from livestock.
 

 

I assumed you weren't, i was just hypothesizing as to why it would have been in their best interest should your theory be proven correct somewhere down the line.

 

The best of tales/lies have a grain of truth to them, and while a tradition wilderness outposts and hunting did most likely exist i doubt they were as dominant as the Dailish like to claim.

 

Like i said the best past is the type of past you can use to your advantage,even if some of it is fabricated, and its even better to build on a foundation of existing truths/mithos.

[BlueMagitek]

I imagine that for the elf deities that are no long relevant, there isn't really much of a need for your average dalish to know about them.  After all, there really isn't much of a need to pray to Bob the Father of Agriculture when you're a hunter/gatherer society, nor is there a need for household deities or cities. 

 

Take Epona from Roman mythology.   She's the goddess of horses and other four legged beasts of an equine sort.  That was her function.  But if there was a long period of time where she wasn't required (say that cars developed) she would fall out of common knowledge, remembered only by priests and people who still used horses. 

[MisterJB]

The stories about woodcrafting and hunting aren't unusual when you consider we find Elven Ruins in the Brecillian Forest that housed the Eluvian (from the time when the elves stretched across the expanse of Thedas), and another set of ruins that are also located in the wilderness (the one where the elven phylactery is found).

Wouldn't those ruins strengthen my point? They were made of stone, after all.

Yet, the current elven mythos focus only on how the gods taught them the art of woodcrafting. Again, rasing the possibility they made the stories match their current living conditions rather than faithfully preserve what was lost.

 

Maybe the Keepers of the Lost Lore are not even that; rather, the inventers of new lore.

[MisterJB]

Perhaps they can do the same for the Dalish, instead of the stories being so human-centric and glossing over the views of the People.

Careful what you wish for, and I do mean it.

The Masked Empire was elven-centric and yet it focused on desmitifying the romantic view people held of the Dalish and Arlathan.

[Xilizhra]

Careful what you wish for, and I do mean it.

The Masked Empire was elven-centric and yet it focused on desmitifying the romantic view people held of the Dalish and Arlathan.

As such, reinforcing a humanocentric viewpoint.

[BlueMagitek]

however, it would be exquisitely hypocritical of Bioware to ruthlessly deconstruct Dalish religion while remaining respectfully vague about Andrastianism, so if we are to learn more about the past of things like this, as I hope we do, it'd best be evenhanded.

 

Wait, what?  We learn quite a lot about the rise of Andrastianism, we learn about the Black Chantry and White Chantry divide, we find Andraste's Ashes, we learn about the Dissonant Verses, we find out that, if nothing else, magic was utilized by Andraste's disciples, we find Corphy. 

 

The Creators.... well, we learn that the Varterral don't really care about the Dalish all that much, so that myth is probably wrong.

[LobselVith8]

Wouldn't those ruins strengthen my point? They were made of stone, after all.

Yet, the current elven mythos focus only on how the gods taught them the art of woodcrafting. Again, rasing the possibility they made the stories match their current living conditions rather than faithfully preserve what was lost.

 

Maybe the Keepers of the Lost Lore are not even that; rather, the inventers of new lore.

 

The ruins are in the middle of a vast forest, so I'd imagine that woodcutting and hunting wouldn't be out of the question.

 

As for what the truth is, I doubt we will ever know with any degree of certainty.

 

Careful what you wish for, and I do mean it.

The Masked Empire was elven-centric and yet it focused on desmitifying the romantic view people held of the Dalish and Arlathan.

 

I thought it focused on one-dimensional characters who confused shemlen for shem and used Andrastian terminology instead of elven terms, with only the Andrastian characters being permitted any actual depth and substance.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, what?  We learn quite a lot about the rise of Andrastianism, we learn about the Black Chantry and White Chantry divide, we find Andraste's Ashes, we learn about the Dissonant Verses, we find out that, if nothing else, magic was utilized by Andraste's disciples, we find Corphy. 

 

The Creators.... well, we learn that the Varterral don't really care about the Dalish all that much, so that myth is probably wrong.

The equivalent to what's been proposed about Dalish religion here is learning that the Maker never created the world.

[BlueMagitek]

The equivalent to what's been proposed about Dalish religion here is learning that the Maker never created the world.

 

It's more along the lines of the Keepers manipulating their people with altered stories, it doesn't suggest that there are no Creators, just that the Dalish idea on them, provided by their Keepers, is faulty.

 

Kind of like the often speculated "Andraste was a mage" idea.

[Xilizhra]

It's more along the lines of the Keepers manipulating their people with altered stories, it doesn't suggest that there are no Creators, just that the Dalish idea on them, provided by their Keepers, is faulty.

 

Kind of like the often speculated "Andraste was a mage" idea.

It's a fundamental alteration of the nature of the gods, thus equivalent to what I said. Andraste being a mage, by contrast, changes virtually nothing; are mages not said to be blessed by the Maker anyway? The important thing was her hearing the Maker's voice, not any magic powers.