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Dalish Folklore


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#26
Gervaise

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I have a theory that they originally retained some memory of their old culture through the stories.   These might well have been handed down over the generations.   When they arrived in the Dales, they discovered various ruins and some of what they found there seemed to fit with the stories.   Then, as stated above, the Keepers reinterpreted the stories to reinforce their current life style.   It may also be possible that some of them did what Solas can apparently do, lay down on the site of an ancient elven settlement and saw the memories of people who lived there.   As PW says, these will not be a totally accurate depiction of history, but simply the memory of a particular "witness".

 

This might explain the assertion that all elves were magical at one time.   It could be true but if you think that the people most likely to leave listening memories in the Fade would be mages, then if you only come across the memories of mages, you might think that everybody was one.     It might also explain why mages ended up being the Keepers (leaders) of the clan, if it was perceived that they were closest to what the "ideal" ancient elf would be.   

 

One thing that I am increasingly starting to question is what happened between when the elves first were given the Dales and the Exalted March against them some 300 years later.     Shartan was not a mage, that seems pretty certain since Andraste gave him a magical sword to use.   Neither were the majority of elves who assisted in the fight against Tevinter since the main thing that is recorded is the arrows they fired, so clearly archers were the predominate class.   Mage children would have been removed from their families at an early age by the Magisters even if they were going to keep them as slaves because they would know the danger of leaving them with their elf communities, so it seems likely that there would have been few if any mages among the slaves who took the long walk to their new homeland.  One would also have thought that the elves, like their human counterparts, would have a rather jaded view of mages.

 

Yet among the Dalish we have mages leading their communities.   Also the banners that fly above the aravals are meant to indicate noble houses.     This would suggest that either the Dalish have adopted these since becoming nomads or that there had already formed a ruling elite at the time of the fall of the Dales and it was most probably comprised of mages.     Thus the Keepers are their descendants and the rest of the clan either non-mage children born from mages or the servants in noble houses.    It makes me wonder if the real objection of the over zealous missionaries was the fact that the elves had mages leading their communities at a time when, even in Tevinter, it was outlawed.    When the Dalish leaders (mages) responded by attacking Orlais, it is small wonder they responded as they did.

 

Another thing I have observed.   Shartan was a genuine elven hero, who had done far more for his people than the Creators, who by the lore keepers' own admission, abandoned them before the fall of Arlathan.   Yet the Dalish are devoted to following their elven gods and scarcely given Shartan more than a passing mention.    Apparently Shartan definitely adopted the faith in the Maker from Andraste and therefore you could argue that the elves owed the restoration of their homeland to the Maker if any god.    Clearly the Keepers view Shartan as an embarrassment, just as the Chantry do.     Not only did he worship the Maker but he also worked in co-operation with humans.   May be he never intended the elves to become isolationists once they had their homeland.

 

Why then did they return to their virtually forgotten gods who had abandoned them?    Perhaps because the real hope of the Dalish is a return to the time when the elves themselves had an empire.   That is what their believe symbolises and why they say that when we remember what it is to be elves, the Creators will return to them.   Before the fall of the Dales, they were working towards that in trying to reinvent the past and isolating themselves from their human neighbours.    Now they just live in hope that the humans will eventually kill each other off and leave the elves to inherit what remains.


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#27
Xilizhra

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Another thing I have observed.   Shartan was a genuine elven hero, who had done far more for his people than the Creators, who by the lore keepers' own admission, abandoned them before the fall of Arlathan.   Yet the Dalish are devoted to following their elven gods and scarcely given Shartan more than a passing mention.    Apparently Shartan definitely adopted the faith in the Maker from Andraste and therefore you could argue that the elves owed the restoration of their homeland to the Maker if any god.    Clearly the Keepers view Shartan as an embarrassment, just as the Chantry do.     Not only did he worship the Maker but he also worked in co-operation with humans.   May be he never intended the elves to become isolationists once they had their homeland.

Untrue. The Creators were banished and imprisoned; they never abandoned the Dalish.

Though the Maker's unbridled malevolence is a regrettable thing to owe a debt to, if the stories about the Maker unleashing the darkspawn are true.



#28
BlueMagitek

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It's a fundamental alteration of the nature of the gods, thus equivalent to what I said. Andraste being a mage, by contrast, changes virtually nothing; are mages not said to be blessed by the Maker anyway? The important thing was her hearing the Maker's voice, not any magic powers.

 

Andraste being a mage alters a great many things for the majority of South Thedas by altering a great many lines of their scripture to a different point of view.

 

By contrast, changing the nature of Bob the Creator from Smithing to Woodcrafting doesn't invalidate that there is a Bob the Creator, they were just mistaken in worship (similar to the above about Andraste).



#29
Xilizhra

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Andraste being a mage alters a great many things for the majority of South Thedas by altering a great many lines of their scripture to a different point of view.

 

By contrast, changing the nature of Bob the Creator from Smithing to Woodcrafting doesn't invalidate that there is a Bob the Creator, they were just mistaken in worship (similar to the above about Andraste).

How are any of those lines altered?



#30
BlueMagitek

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I have a theory that they originally retained some memory of their old culture through the stories.   These might well have been handed down over the generations.   When they arrived in the Dales, they discovered various ruins and some of what they found there seemed to fit with the stories.   Then, as stated above, the Keepers reinterpreted the stories to reinforce their current life style.   It may also be possible that some of them did what Solas can apparently do, lay down on the site of an ancient elven settlement and saw the memories of people who lived there.   As PW says, these will not be a totally accurate depiction of history, but simply the memory of a particular "witness".

 

...

 

Why then did they return to their virtually forgotten gods who had abandoned them?    Perhaps because the real hope of the Dalish is a return to the time when the elves themselves had an empire.   That is what their believe symbolises and why they say that when we remember what it is to be elves, the Creators will return to them.   Before the fall of the Dales, they were working towards that in trying to reinvent the past and isolating themselves from their human neighbours.    Now they just live in hope that the humans will eventually kill each other off and leave the elves to inherit what remains.

Well, part of their resistance is most likely due to the Human/Elf or Dwarf/Elf pairing always leading to a human or dwarf (with some elf features).  If they did encourage mingling with humans, they would soon find themselves dying off even faster, so there is a practical reason for their xenophobia and want of a humanless nation aside from the idea of the quickening.



#31
BlueMagitek

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How are any of those lines altered?

We'll take the famous line "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him."

 

When said by a mage, that means that they need to be in control at all times, know their limits and don't let the allure of the Fade or its denizens to take control.

When said by an average human, as they currently interpret it, it is a caution against magic in general and the idea that the wielders of magic should not have more power over man (hence the no nobility thing).



#32
Xilizhra

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We'll take the famous line "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him."

 

When said by a mage, that means that they need to be in control at all times, know their limits and don't let the allure of the Fade or its denizens to take control.

When said by an average human, as they currently interpret it, it is a caution against magic in general and the idea that the wielders of magic should not have more power over man (hence the no nobility thing).

Which is down to interpretation of how one should behave, as opposed to the fundamental nature of a god.



#33
BlueMagitek

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Which is down to interpretation of how one should behave, as opposed to the fundamental nature of a god.

 

Which is a huge change to the current belief of the White Chantry and would have a much greater impact if only by the virtue of greater human and city elves following Andrastianism.



#34
LobselVith8

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Well, part of their resistance is most likely due to the Human/Elf or Dwarf/Elf pairing always leading to a human or dwarf (with some elf features).  If they did encourage mingling with humans, they would soon find themselves dying off even faster, so there is a practical reason for their xenophobia and want of a humanless nation aside from the idea of the quickening.

 

The developers have actually stated the children of human and elves are human; not a half-elf or anything like that. While never overtly explained, it's implied that there may be a magical reason behind it.

 

Also, I think the hostility of Andrastian humans towards the clans plays a main role in why the Dalish are wary and cautious about outsiders, and the only semi-permanent settlement we have heard about is supposed to exist outside of the city populated by the Rivaini who follow the Natural Order, one where they actively engage with the nearby humans. Gaider once said about the settlement: "A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged."


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#35
Gervaise

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The story about the Creators being imprisoned is surely a convenient way of overcoming this objection about them.   However, outside of the stories, the history of Arlathan simply records that the Creators fell silent and stopped communicating.    Merrill definitely says that they believe that when they remember what it is to be elves that the Creators will return to them/speak with them again.    If they know they are imprisoned/banished why would them becoming better elves make any difference?

 

Sebastian also draws the similarity between the elves belief about what it would require for their gods to return and the idea that the Maker will return when the chant is spread throughout the world.   He even suggests that both sides could be talking about the same divine force.



#36
Xilizhra

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Which is a huge change to the current belief of the White Chantry and would have a much greater impact if only by the virtue of greater human and city elves following Andrastianism.

Ultimately less relevant when we're talking about the truth or falsehood of the stories in question.

 

 

The story about the Creators being imprisoned is surely a convenient way of overcoming this objection about them.   However, outside of the stories, the history of Arlathan simply records that the Creators fell silent and stopped communicating.    Merrill definitely says that they believe that when they remember what it is to be elves that the Creators will return to them/speak with them again.    If they know they are imprisoned/banished why would them becoming better elves make any difference?

 

Sebastian also draws the similarity between the elves belief about what it would require for their gods to return and the idea that the Maker will return when the chant is spread throughout the world.   He even suggests that both sides could be talking about the same divine force.

Something to do with Fen'Harel's ability to keep them away from the world weakening, perhaps? Also, Sebastian's a patronizing bastard; if he meant that both the Dalish and Andrastian points of view could be incomplete, it'd be fine, but he clearly thinks the Dalish just have a distorted view of the Maker.



#37
LobselVith8

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The story about the Creators being imprisoned is surely a convenient way of overcoming this objection about them.   However, outside of the stories, the history of Arlathan simply records that the Creators fell silent and stopped communicating.    Merrill definitely says that they believe that when they remember what it is to be elves that the Creators will return to them/speak with them again.    If they know they are imprisoned/banished why would them becoming better elves make any difference?

 

It's not elaborated on, unfortunately. The imprisonment of the Creators in the Eternal City might be fleshed out more with an elven Inquisitor.

 

Sebastian also draws the similarity between the elves belief about what it would require for their gods to return and the idea that the Maker will return when the chant is spread throughout the world.   He even suggests that both sides could be talking about the same divine force.

 

Merrill doesn't concur with that line of thought, which isn't surprising considering there are some stark, irreconcilable differences between the two faiths.



#38
myahele

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The bible consisted on wandering tribes, desserts, lots of begetting and slavery. Yet our culture isn't like that anymore for the most part.

It's just something that stuck with them despite settling down to become an empire.

There's also the possibility that these myths were eventually compiled once Dales was settled

#39
mikeymoonshine

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I just hope they don't confirm any of the faiths to be true or false. 



#40
Gervaise

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I was actually using the example of Sebastian to show that I hadn't misunderstood what Merrill was saying.   Even if he was being patronising, at least he wasn't outright telling her that her faith was evil and to abandon it at once.      I always personally found her approval of an offering to Dumat strange since this god was directly responsible for the destruction of Arlathan, whereas my Dalish Warden turned down Morrigan partly because he didn't think an old god who had brought about his ancestors' downfall was worth saving.   Clearly different people view things in different ways.



#41
LobselVith8

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I was actually using the example of Sebastian to show that I hadn't misunderstood what Merrill was saying.   Even if he was being patronising, at least he wasn't outright telling her that her faith was evil and to abandon it at once.      I always personally found her approval of an offering to Dumat strange since this god was directly responsible for the destruction of Arlathan, whereas my Dalish Warden turned down Morrigan partly because he didn't think an old god who had brought about his ancestors' downfall was worth saving.   Clearly different people view things in different ways.

 

It was an expression of curiosity and fascination, given how Dumat is supposed to be dead, yet an offering produced a reward at his shrine. I don't think it reflects approval for the Old Gods in the least, but rather insight into how mysteries fascinate her.



#42
Xilizhra

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It was an expression of curiosity and fascination, given how Dumat is supposed to be dead, yet an offering produced a reward at his shrine. I don't think it reflects approval for the Old Gods in the least, but rather insight into how mysteries fascinate her.

Potentially, but I also think that she still might be willing to speak with Dumat if she might get information out of it.



#43
Jedi Master of Orion

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It's common knowledge that the Dalish knowledge of their own gods is incomplete. Most of what they know of their religion was pieced together from fragments. Much of it was lost with the Fall of Arlathan.


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#44
BlueMagitek

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The developers have actually stated the children of human and elves are human; not a half-elf or anything like that. While never overtly explained, it's implied that there may be a magical reason behind it.

 

Also, I think the hostility of Andrastian humans towards the clans plays a main role in why the Dalish are wary and cautious about outsiders, and the only semi-permanent settlement we have heard about is supposed to exist outside of the city populated by the Rivaini who follow the Natural Order, one where they actively engage with the nearby humans. Gaider once said about the settlement: "A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged."

 

Yes, but looking at, say, that one dreamer kid; he has a sort of mixed model.  I'm not saying they are half elves, I'm saying they have some features which are more elf than human (pointier ears?).

 

It completely differs from clan to clan, and that is an issue, especially as the clans don't seem to have any defining features from each other (to outsiders).  So, you're out in the woods one day and you come across a few Dalish in the woods, there are a number of things that can happen :

 

  1. The elves hold you up at bowpoint and rob you (as some Dalish clans are more like mauraders)
  2. As the above, but they loot your arrow filled corpse instead.
  3. The elves greet you and offer to trade (some of the benevolant clans)
  4. The elves just ignore you and leave.
  5. The elves flee.
  6. The elves kill you just because (similar to a certain clan in that new fancy book) or they kill you because some other humans bothered them earlier

That's 3/6 bad scenarios, 2/6 neutral scenarios and 1/6 good scenario. Not good odds.  They also don't always take responsibility for their actions (Zathrian's werewolves).  And you, as an outsider, will have no idea which clan it was.  So it's a lot better to not have a clan nearby.

 

 

Ultimately less relevant when we're talking about the truth or falsehood of the stories in question.

 

Completely changing dogma is extremely relevant and impacts much, much more.

 

You're also wrong to compare the alteration of a monotheistic deity (Maker) to the alteration of a few of the Creators (being polytheistic).



#45
LobselVith8

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It's common knowledge that the Dalish knowledge of their own gods is incomplete. Most of what they know of their religion was pieced together from fragments. Much of it was lost with the Fall of Arlathan.

 

True. Merrill says as much when she explains that there are gaps in their knowledge, such as the reason behind the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.



#46
Jedi Master of Orion

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Wait, what?  We learn quite a lot about the rise of Andrastianism, we learn about the Black Chantry and White Chantry divide, we find Andraste's Ashes, we learn about the Dissonant Verses, we find out that, if nothing else, magic was utilized by Andraste's disciples, we find Corphy. 

 

The Creators.... well, we learn that the Varterral don't really care about the Dalish all that much, so that myth is probably wrong.

 

No, actually the story about the Varterral is one of the things that The Masked Empire seemed to hint at being true. As soon as it showed up, Lienne de Montismmard said she sensed old magic that was bound here to serve, and Felassan says that it won't attack elves unless attacked by them first. He also implies the reason that others might do so is if they are broken.



#47
BlueMagitek

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No, actually the story about the Varterral is one of the things that The Masked Empire seemed to hint at being true. As soon as it showed up, Lienne de Montismmard said she sensed old magic that was bound here to serve, and Felassan says that it won't attack elves unless attacked by them first. He also implies the reason that others might do so is if they are broken.

 

I was referring to the Vaterral from Witch Hunt.  Doesn't care at all for the Dalish Warden.



#48
LobselVith8

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I was referring to the Vaterral from Witch Hunt.  Doesn't care at all for the Dalish Warden.

 

If Felassan is to be trusted, I guess it's broken?



#49
Xilizhra

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Completely changing dogma is extremely relevant and impacts much, much more.

 

You're also wrong to compare the alteration of a monotheistic deity (Maker) to the alteration of a few of the Creators (being polytheistic).

It means nothing about the truth behind a religion.

 

And given that any of the Creators are open to being changed by this information, I'd say it's still comparable.



#50
Hellion Rex

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If Felassan is to be trusted, I guess it's broken?

Or perhaps at that time, all the Varterral stuff wasn't entirely fleshed out.