212 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To understand this one must understand religion first. Religion is after all, a very sophisticated form of tribalism. It starts with the deification of a brand or an idea or an entity or plurals of them. This is then followed by a set of rules and codes that mutates accordingly based on the collective situation.Finally, there is the indoctrination and subsequent preaching of said religion. 

 

The Dalish are no exception. The core of Dalish religion is the deification of the idea that ancient elves are benevolent immortal beings with advanced culture until the humans messed everything up. As such, everything essentially revolves around that idea, from the preservation of forestry to advanced usage of wood to herding Hallas, even though the world has in fact advanced itself from using wood to employing volcanic metals, from using Hallas to using trained horses and so on.

 

That is also why everything we know of Dalish religion very much matches their current lifestyle for religions have a set of rules and codes that mutates accordingly based on the collective situation. If the Dalish were still in control of the Dales; then, perhaps the rules, the gods and the culture an outsider observes might have been very different. 

 

This is also why each Dalish clan has slightly different views and approach towards their religion. Dalish elves are nomadic who occasionally hold a huge gathering. So each clan can have its own unique collective environment which then translates to difference in religious interpretation. So the Sabrae clan might view the Dalish pantheon and Dalish view of humans different as opposed to Virnehn. 

 

The Chantry is no different either. The core of the Chantry is made up of the idea that a woman had  visions telling her that men, magic and their hubris were to be blamed for everything. Hence we see the Chantry being a gynocentric organization, the establishment of Templar Order, Circle of Magi and so on. 

 

The Imperial Chantry is again a mutation of the Chantry due to the difference in collective environment. In Tevinter, magic and magisters and men primarily hold sway and as such it has the structure as it does. 

 

Belief systems are the result of peoples who impose their ideas as absolutes on an indifferent universe in order to find meaning. This applies even to the people Thedas from the Qun to Andrastian Chantry to Imperial Chantry to the Dalish to the Stone to the Dragon Cults to Old God Worship. 

[Xilizhra]

I should point out that halla are objectively superior to horses, being far more intelligent; humans simply could never domesticate them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I should point out that halla are objectively superior to horses, being far more intelligent; humans simply could never domesticate them.

 

Exactly. Horses are more effective as beasts of burden, tranportation and war. Intelligence of animals can sometimes hinder their usage as disposable tools. 

[Mr.House]

It's a fundamental alteration of the nature of the gods, thus equivalent to what I said. Andraste being a mage, by contrast, changes virtually nothing; are mages not said to be blessed by the Maker anyway? The important thing was her hearing the Maker's voice, not any magic powers.

Um Andraste being a mage WOULD change everything.

[Xilizhra]

Exactly. Horses are more effective as beasts of burden, tranportation and war. Intelligence of animals can sometimes hinder their usage as disposable tools. 

No they aren't. For one thing, they don't do as well in the forests that the Dalish pass through. For another, they're perfectly adequate as mounts in wartime; the Emerald Knights of the Dales rode halla, and their empathic bond with the Dalish will be quite an aid there as well as their intelligence (the Dalish were, after all, winning against the full might of the Orlesian Empire until the Chantry got involved). For a third, the Dalish have neither the need nor the inclination to use them as disposable tools.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

No they aren't. For one thing, they don't do as well in the forests that the Dalish pass through. For another, they're perfectly adequate as mounts in wartime; the Emerald Knights of the Dales rode halla, and their empathic bond with the Dalish will be quite an aid there as well as their intelligence (the Dalish were, after all, winning against the full might of the Orlesian Empire until the Chantry got involved). For a third, the Dalish have neither the need nor the inclination to use them as disposable tools.

 

Sigh...as intelligent creatures, hallas are superior...

 

However, human societies do not use animals for their intelligent levels,they use creatures that can be tamed and put to strenuous work, can take abuse, etc.

 

Different usage, different purpose. As disposable beasts, horses and even brontos will be better than hallas. 

[Xilizhra]

Sigh...as intelligent creatures, hallas are superior...

 

However, human societies do not use animals for their intelligent levels,they use creatures that can be tamed and put to strenuous work, can take abuse, etc.

 

Different usage, different purpose. As disposable beasts, horses and even brontos will be better than hallas. 

So it's not a matter of the Dalish being somehow retrograde, but about the different ways in which humans and elves use other species.

[MisterJB]

I should point out that halla are objectively superior to horses, being far more intelligent; humans simply could never domesticate them.

Objectivelly? Hardly.

Even if we accept hallas are more inteligent; altough I don't see much evidence of it; in order for them to be "objectivelly superior", we'd first have to determine to what standard they are being held to.

 

As companions? Yes, the halla might be considered superior in that aspect if they are more intelligent

 

On the other hand, if we are thinking in terms of combat, where is your evidence halla are faster or stronger or have more stamina than a horse?

Also, there's the fact halla apparently choose mates, presumably for life, whereas a horse can be mated with any mare in order to mass produce horses to field cavalry.

 

And if they can't be domesticated, we humans will just do what we always do with any animal that can't be domesticated. Kill it and take its horns or fur.
 

[Xilizhra]

Objectivelly? Hardly.

Even if we accept hallas are more inteligent; altough I don't see much evidence of it; in order for them to be "objectivelly superior", we'd first have to determine to what standard they are being held to.

 

As companions? Yes, the halla might be considered superior in that aspect if they are more intelligent

 

On the other hand, if we are thinking in terms of combat, where is your evidence halla are faster or stronger or have more stamina than a horse?

Also, there's the fact halla apparently choose mates, presumably for life, whereas a horse can be mated with any mare in order to mass produce horses to field cavalry.

 

And if they can't be domesticated, we humans will just do what we always do with any animal that can't be domesticated. Kill it and take its horns or fur.
 

There's no evidence to directly compare the physique of halla to horses, given a lack of horse models in the game, but we do have the presence and success of halla cavalry to demonstrate that they match horses in that respect, and they can apparently pull aravels at quite respectable speeds. In short, the halla have at least one demonstrably superior trait, whereas horses have none.

 

And you won't succeed in doing so with the Halla until you succeed in doing so with the Dalish, which won't be happening anytime soon.

[MisterJB]

There's no evidence to directly compare the physique of halla to horses, given a lack of horse models in the game, but we do have the presence and success of halla cavalry to demonstrate that they match horses in that respect, and they can apparently pull aravels at quite respectable speeds. In short, the halla have at least one demonstrably superior trait, whereas horses have none.

Sucess of halla cavalry?

You mean in that one nation Orlais defeated? We've never seen a horse test itself against an halla and you're already talking about their supossed sucesses. As far as we know, the Chevaliers just steamrolled over all Esmerald Knights.

 

Besides, I can come up with two demonstrably superior traits.

One, you can work an horse to death because they're stupid. An halla actually has to be convinced to do it.

Clearly useful if what you're interested in is livestock rather than a "trusted companion"

 

Two, horses breed at a much faster pace because they don't pick mates.

 

Besides, humans domesticated Gryphons.
 

[MisterJB]

And you won't succeed in doing so with the Halla until you succeed in doing so with the Dalish, which won't be happening anytime soon.

Halla hornes are a delicacy in Tevinter.

It's true, check the wiki.

[Xilizhra]

Sucess of halla cavalry?

You mean in that one nation Orlais defeated? We've never seen a horse test itself against an halla and you're already talking about their supossed sucesses. As far as we know, the Chevaliers just steamrolled over all Esmerald Knights.

One nation that the Chantry defeated with an army drawn from every nation in Thedas that swamped the elves with numbers. The elves were winning rather handily against Orlais alone.

 

 

Besides, I can come up with two demonstrably superior traits.

One, you can work an horse to death because they're stupid. An halla actually has to be convinced to do it.

Clearly useful if what you're interested in is livestock rather than a "trusted companion"

 

Two, horses breed at a much faster pace because they don't pick mates.

Waste of resources in the first case (in addition to your assumption that they didn't have horses for work in the Dales or Arlathan, which isn't really based on anything), and unfounded extrapolation in the second: the fact that the halla pick all mates with the Dalish doesn't mean they couldn't be convinced otherwise in wartime.

 

 

Halla hornes are a delicacy in Tevinter.

It's true, check the wiki.

Unsurprising.

[MisterJB]

One nation that the Chantry defeated with an army drawn from every nation in Thedas that swamped the elves with numbers. The elves were winning rather handily against Orlais alone.

Nope.

World of Thedas page 13 "The Chantry called for war against the elves. It became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

Orlais defeated the Dales by itself after having faced the Second Blight for 90 years.

 

Waste of resources in the first case

But it gets the job done if we must.

And, like I said, we got tons of horses.

 

(in addition to your assumption that they didn't have horses for work in the Dales or Arlathan, which isn't really based on anything),

I thought we were discussing whether horses or halla were best?
Not whether it's better to have horses and halla or just horses.

 

the fact that the halla pick all mates with the Dalish doesn't mean they couldn't be convinced otherwise in wartime.

In which case you'd still have to wait for them to grow, be trained, etc.

Meanwhile, we've been breeding horses in peacetime.

 

Who do you think would field cavalry faster and in greater numbers? Humans or elves?

 

[Xilizhra]

Nope.

World of Thedas page 13 "The Chantry called for war against the elves. It became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

Orlais defeated the Dales by itself after having faced the Second Blight for 90 years.

So, the Exalted March was just a changed name on a war that had already been going, and Orlais won on its own after the elves sacked Val Royeaux? Or did that also change?

 

 

I thought we were discussing whether horses or halla were best?
Not whether it's better to have horses and halla or just horses.

Actually, it's about whether the Dalish are stupid and retrograde.

 

 

In which case you'd still have to wait for them to grow, be trained, etc.

Meanwhile, we've been breeding horses in peacetime.

 

Who do you think would field cavalry faster and in greater numbers? Humans or elves?

Well, humans have far more territory and population, so clearly humans, but the playing field on this has never been level. If the playing field was level, it'd depend on which side was preparing for war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well I think the idea is that the Dales was winning the war against Orlais and when the Divine called for holy war, the Orlesian army was boosted by mages, templars and all the the average folks from Orlais who answered the call to arms. The war lasted 10 more years so eventually they wore down the elves with numbers I would imagine.

 

Although I think the actual sack of Val Royueax may now be relegated to old lore. It was mentioned in the wiki, which was drawn from the Prima Guide. However world of Thedas itself only mentions that the elves were marching on Val Royeaux. Instead of saying "Although the elves eventually did sack Val Royueax," it merely says there were "many elven successes."

[LobselVith8]

Well I think the idea is that the Dales was winning the war against Orlais and when the Divine called for holy war, the Orlesian army was boosted by mages, templars and all the the average folks from Orlais who answered the call to arms. The war lasted 10 more years so eventually they wore down the elves with numbers I would imagine.

 

Although I think the actual sack of Val Royueax may now be relegated to old lore. It was mentioned in the wiki, which was drawn from the Prima Guide. However world of Thedas itself only mentions that the elves were marching on Val Royeaux. Instead of saying "Although the elves eventually did sack Val Royueax," it merely says there were "many elven successes."

 

Ariane also mentions the Circle with some derision and implies their involvement in the war against the Dales, as well as the theft of some elven artifacts and items as a consequence.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well the Chantry is the one that controls the Circle's mages so it only makes sense they'd be employed and unleashed if an Exalted March was called. The impression I got was that (being a storehouse of Thedosian lore) the Circles confiscated much of the accumulated elven lore and artifacts after the Fall of Halamshiral, so while the general cultural identity of the elven people remained intact (unlike the Fall of Arlathan), most expert sophisticated knowledge was lost to the elves (such as the technical workings of the Eluvian).

[In Exile]

Like the Maker, it remains a mystery. It's entirely possible that a lot of elven legends were reinterpreted over the years as the previous gods changed to fill new roles... however, it would be exquisitely hypocritical of Bioware to ruthlessly deconstruct Dalish religion while remaining respectfully vague about Andrastianism, so if we are to learn more about the past of things like this, as I hope we do, it'd best be evenhanded.

 

We do know that most of Andrastianism is most likely BS. Even if a being like the Maker is real, which is a skeptical proposition on its own, we know the Chant is a cooked up bible in Orlais centuries after the fact and that passages drop based on the whims of the Divine and the politics in Orlais (cf: the passages relating to Shartan). 

 

If anything, I would say that Bioware has already generally dispelled the mystery around the historical account of the Chantry vs. its theological account. 

 

On the other hand, because the entire dilemma of the elves is boiled down to the collapse of their society in Arlathan, we've been told previous little about it. We know that the Dalish are completely ignorant of their actual history vis-a-vis Arlathan, but we don't know the actual history, so it would be nice for Bioware to share it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chant of Light was created well before the Chantry. But it was Orlais that picked which version was finally considered canonical by most Andrastians.

[In Exile]

It's a fundamental alteration of the nature of the gods, thus equivalent to what I said. Andraste being a mage, by contrast, changes virtually nothing; are mages not said to be blessed by the Maker anyway? The important thing was her hearing the Maker's voice, not any magic powers.

 

Andraste being a mage undermines their whole religion, raising the issue of (1) whether the Maker was just some Fade denizen and (2) calling into question any miracles she performed as being magical in nature - which is basically a kind of mundane, exclusive science - versus acts of this supposed deity, the Maker. 

 

It also undermines the strong anti-mage current at the heart of the religion, and calls into question the entire project of mage subjugation as the height of hypocrisy. It even ridicules the idea that the chantry leadership should be made up of mundane women like Andraste, as opposed to (more akin to Tevinter) mage women. 

[In Exile]

No, actually the story about the Varterral is one of the things that The Masked Empire seemed to hint at being true. As soon as it showed up, Lienne de Montismmard said she sensed old magic that was bound here to serve, and Felassan says that it won't attack elves unless attacked by them first. He also implies the reason that others might do so is if they are broken.

 

People make too much of what happened in DA2. The Varterral attacked Merrill, sure, but it didn't attack Zevran. If anything, it protected him. It also seemed to protect the Eluvian in Witch Hunt. They clearly have a role to play, and whether the DA2 Varterral was broken or the Sabrae clan as a whole did something to set it off, the idea that it's a magic protector for elves (not Dalish, because they weren't the ones to make it) seems to be alive and quite well.

[In Exile]

So, the Exalted March was just a changed name on a war that had already been going, and Orlais won on its own after the elves sacked Val Royeaux? Or did that also change?

Well, I am willing to bet a huge sum that it was the addition of the Circles of Magi that made the difference. And possibly the use of templars against Dalish mages as well. Orlesian ground troops were obviously a factor, but the fact that Dalish had free magic and Orlais didn't shouldn't be discounted as a major factor for the early success of the Dalish and the post Exalted March success of the Orlesians.

Seeing as how they wanted to erase Shartan completely from the Chant after their victory, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry also removed the role of the mages from the conflict. 

[In Exile]

The Chant of Light was created well before the Chantry. But it was Orlais that picked which version was finally considered canonical by most Andrastians.

 

But that's how it's similar to the Christian Bible. The actual gospels predate the Bible by (sometimes) centuries, as far as I recall. But which accounts were eventually admitted and which were rejected was a choice of the Roman Empire and Emperor Constantine's directives. 

[Maria Caliban]

I should point out that halla are objectively superior to horses, being far more intelligent; humans simply could never domesticate them.

Being more intelligent doesn't make something objectively superior.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But that's how it's similar to the Christian Bible. The actual gospels predate the Bible by (sometimes) centuries, as far as I recall. But which accounts were eventually admitted and which were rejected was a choice of the Roman Empire and Emperor Constantine's directives. 

 

That I get, but you made it sound like the Orlesian Chantry invented the whole thing when they founded the Chantry.

 

Andraste being a mage undermines their whole religion, raising the issue of (1) whether the Maker was just some Fade denizen and (2) calling into question any miracles she performed as being magical in nature - which is basically a kind of mundane, exclusive science - versus acts of this supposed deity, the Maker. 

 

It also undermines the strong anti-mage current at the heart of the religion, and calls into question the entire project of mage subjugation as the height of hypocrisy. It even ridicules the idea that the chantry leadership should be made up of mundane women like Andraste, as opposed to (more akin to Tevinter) mage women. 

I'm actually with Xil on that issue of Andraste being a mage. For a while I even thought the standard view was that Andraste WAS a mage. Andraste preached against the abuse of magic, not the existence of mages. Even if she was a mage, her message still is important. It is her status as the Bride of the Maker that was central to the Cult of the Maker, not her mundane status.

 

Simply being a mage does not explain any of her supposed miracles.

 

Maybe you could make a case that it undermines the premise of the Circle System, but even that questionable. The justification for why it exists is not that every single mage will turn to domination or demons. It doesn't take every man to endanger the people. There have been many Chantry exceptions to the rules and if ever there was a case to be made for an exception it would be the woman who was the spiritual bride of the Maker himself.

 

 

Seeing as how they wanted to erase Shartan completely from the Chant after their victory, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry also removed the role of the mages from the conflict. 

 

Why? It's already clearly recorded that mages had a significant impact on many other, more important, conflicts in history, such as the Qunari Wars or the Second Blight. Why would this one be any different?

 

People make too much of what happened in DA2. The Varterral attacked Merrill, sure, but it didn't attack Zevran. If anything, it protected him. It also seemed to protect the Eluvian in Witch Hunt. They clearly have a role to play, and whether the DA2 Varterral was broken or the Sabrae clan as a whole did something to set it off, the idea that it's a magic protector for elves (not Dalish, because they weren't the ones to make it) seems to be alive and quite well.

 

Well the Varterrals were created long before there was such a thing as a Dalish. So I don't think the legends would specify them wanting to protect anyone more specific than an elf. The ones in Dragon Age 2 and Witch Hunt clearly were not doing so, however. But the one in The Masked Empire was explicitly said to only attack elves in self defense. So it's actually the first example of a Varterral that very clearly indicates that there's truth to the legends.