212 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I can't remember all the npc conversations in Dragon Age Origins, but I think the Dalish perspective tends to treat the humans as the aggressors. At least that's the definite impression I got from hearing the Warden and Hahren Paivel tell the children about the Fall of the Dales. The Warden's line if correctly telling the story is "The humans wouldn't let us be" and Paivel says "They were resentful that we would not worship their gods and because we put our people first." The next part is "In their eyes we were blasphemers and cruel tyrants" and the Warden's line is "Then the humans declared war on the Dales."

 

There's a conversation option for certain Wardens, if they aren't Dalish, when talking to Hahren Sarel about the Fall of the Dales. He angrily says "And do you know what happened next?" One of the options is something like "Big deal. You started a war and lost." Does anyone know what he says if you pick that option?

[LobselVith8]

The protagonist is allowed to express beliefs and opinions. An expressed belief or opinion is not proof of the facts underlying that opinion. 

You could say: the Warden has a dialogue option that suggests the templars invaded the Dales, suggesting that there is some independent source for this view that may, possibly, be historical. That is a reasonable inference from the existence of the dialogue line, building on the proposition that the Protagonist lines are designed to be consistent with the lore. It is, in other words, incredible weak circumstantial proof for the existence of a historical account we have never seen. It is not historical evidence. It is not a historical account. 

 

The protagonist is also allowed to express events that have taken place as well. And the elven Warden's assertion fits with the Dalish codex, where a refusal to convert lead to an incursion. To be quite clear, I'm not stating that the Dalish historical account is true, and the Chantry historical account is false. I have repeatedly acknowledged that the player doesn't know the truth. However, I'm not inclined to share the opinion that there's only one point of view to what started the war with the Dales.

 

But, of course, there's no reason why the Protagonist should only be allowed to express opinions that are lore-consistent. Stating that all mages are dangerous, for example, is not lore-consistent (I would argue; we could have a debate on this). But it is an opinion you can express. 

 

I don't see the comparison in equating the expression of an opinion (such as the main character expressing their belief in whether or not mages should be free) with citing a historical event, like the war with the Dales.

 

What is pure gibberish logic, however, is to leap from the expression of an unsourced opinion to the conclusion that there is historical proof from it. That is the problem. I am not saying that the line should be ignored. I am saying that your train of logic derailed four stops before you reached your conclusion. 

 

Because I also look at the Dalish codex account on the Dales, along with the city elf version that cites the Chantry having an issue with the elves following a different religion. There's also the World of Thedas making no attempt to specify that the elves started the war; it's ambiguous about how the conflict started. The simple truth is that information is, unfortunately, limited. Even the author of "The Masked Empire" admitted that an elven point of view for the Dalish wasn't provided because there wasn't enough time to delve into such things, and to avoid confusing the reader. I'd certainly like that to change.

 

Frankly, it's not as though there's a plethora of information on the Dalish. Dragon Age has been quite human-centric, particularly in the perspectives provided, and having a "human only" protagonist last time certainly didn't shift things. Maybe that will change with Inquisition. With an elven Inquisitor, I can only hope that we get more information, more perspectives, and some insight into the elven points of view on certain events, including the Dales. I'd certainly be surprised if it wasn't addressed, given how the elven Inquisitor can visit Orlais.

[Dean_the_Young]

Although I see your point about religious freedom being a moot point in Thedas (as in Medieval Europe), is the contemporary example a good one? Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians are recognized as official religions in Shia Iran and have some (very few) seats reserved in the Parliament. Not much to be proud of, mind you, but I seriously doubt that the original Dales religious guardians were as "permissive" as that.

True, true. I was thinking in terms of the less formal pressures.

 

If we want to get formal, a variant on the Taliban might be better. Former allies, historical grievances, achieving a bastion for implementing a utopian project of reclaiming moral and spiritual purity.

 

Honestly, the part of the Dales that interests me the most isn't how it came to fall, but how it came to be a Dalish cultural-reclamation state in the first place. It wasn't like a bunch of Arlathan refugees who vaguely remembered how things were before came together to recreate it: we're talking about countless generations of difference of people, many of who were likely Andrastians themselves at that point.

 

The real historical question is 'just how did a movement of reclaiming elven identity come to dominance?' It is treated as a natural and inherent consequence of elven slaves being freed, but that really isn't true. That's just victor's history in action, similar to the idea of 'of course Andraste was going to lead to the Chantry' (or, real world, the idea that the 13 independent colonies of North America would unify into the United States).

 

The Dales weren't given or planned as an elvenhood reclamation project from the start. It could have taken any number of direction- it could have been a multiracial state, it could have been an Andrastian Elf state, it could have been a free religion state in which Andrastianism and Dalish reclamation were both tolerated.

 

There is nothing inherent about the success of an ideology that the elves could reclaim immortality if separated from humans... and there's nothing inherent about the success of the establishment in asserting those views over the preferences of those who would disagree. The Dalish speak much about the freedom to be elven, but nothing about any freedom to be Andrastian. We know nothing about internal Dales politics, but whoever controlled the Emerald Guard certainly didn't want to allow anyone who would encourage cultural deviancy. External blockades rarely exist without internal enforcement either.

 

The idea that all the elves of the Dales agreed is, if we know anything about how 'human' the elves can be, total nonsense not worth taking seriously.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Although Shartan seems to have eventually converted to Andrastianism, I would suspect most of his followers did not. If any significant number of his elven followers did, then it seems unlikely the Chantry would have felt the need to send more missionaries into the Dales. And their rationale for attacking may have been to protect their elven coreligionists. That would have been a pretty powerful message, but they never used it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, the line referring the templars comes right after the missionaries being booted from the Dales. The fall of the Dales takes place afterward, in a separate line.

 

 

I'd imagine if that was the intent, it would be in the same line as the fall of the Dales, instead of addressed as a response to kicking out the missionaries.

 

 

Maybe you could try formulating actual retorts instead of insults, since all I'm seeing here is you claiming that there's only one historical account about what happened, and even World of Thedas never explicitly reads that the elves started the war.

 

 

Worship of the Maker is precisely the reason Drakon conquered his neighbors. "Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today." Interestingly enough, Emperor Drakon's difficulties with the neighboring kingdom of the Dales are the reason he couldn't conquer the Free Marches, and why he utilized missionaries to spread the word of the Maker. Given that the conquest of their neighbors to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker, I'm not inclined to share your view on the elves wanting to be left alone.

 

 

You could always try maintaining your composure in discussions instead, and not using language to insult people who take opposing views to your own.

 

I'm giving you all the respect you deserve. Your argument, the same, not least because it deserves little.

 

After claiming

 

 

Actually, the line referring the templars comes right after the missionaries being booted from the Dales. The fall of the Dales takes place afterward, in a separate line.

 

 

As a rebutal to the point of a lack of chronology and relevant information (like Dalish military actions) in
 

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

 

, the entire Dalish summation of the conflict, is an assertion of military preemption. That is a failure of reading comprehension, as what you are claiming is not what is actually conveyed by the cited lines. It is projection bias.

 

 

Insulting you would be if I called you names. Raising your absence of support and the similarities between your religious arguments and intolerant theocrats is not an insult.

[Dean_the_Young]

Although Shartan seems to have eventually converted to Andrastianism, I would suspect most of his followers did not. If any significant number of his elven followers did, then it seems unlikely the Chantry would have felt the need to send more missionaries into the Dales. And their rationale for attacking may have been to protect their elven coreligionists. That would have been a pretty powerful message, but they never used it.

The migration of Shartan's followers to the Dales and the actual Dales conflict was a matter of hundreds of years. Any Andrastian movement (if there was one: I'm not asserting there was) could have been weeded out easily within that period. It could even have occured before the Chantry was even formalized.

[In Exile]

The protagonist is also allowed to express events that have taken place as well. And the elven Warden's assertion fits with the Dalish codex, where a refusal to convert lead to an incursion. To be quite clear, I'm not stating that the Dalish historical account is true, and the Chantry historical account is false. I have repeatedly acknowledged that the player doesn't know the truth. However, I'm not inclined to share the opinion that there's only one point of view to what started the war with the Dales.

 

This isn't about proving one account or another. It is about using bad evidence. As Jedi Master Orion points out, the Warden can express views that are consistent with either account. The Warden's like is not independent proof, it is merely a dialogue option allowing you to RP your character by expressing a belief as to which of these two accounts you accept.

 

The existence of the line does not prove what you believe it does. It does not support the Dalish account. It does not buttress it. It does not make it more believable. It is a valueless assertion.

 

I don't see the comparison in equating the expression of an opinion (such as the main character expressing their belief in whether or not mages should be free) with citing a historical event, like the war with the Dales.

 

You are not "citing a historical event". You are discussing a historical event, and expressing an unsourced belief. Your inability to understand the difference is the reason for this tangential debate we are having that, frankly, is a distraction from a very interesting conversation on what actually happened during that period. 

 

Because I also look at the Dalish codex account on the Dales, along with the city elf version that cites the Chantry having an issue with the elves following a different religion. There's also the World of Thedas making no attempt to specify that the elves started the war; it's ambiguous about how the conflict started. The simple truth is that information is, unfortunately, limited. Even the author of "The Masked Empire" admitted that an elven point of view for the Dalish wasn't provided because there wasn't enough time to delve into such things, and to avoid confusing the reader. I'd certainly like that to change.

 

None of that has anything to do with what I said. It's incredibly frustrating to discuss things with you, when you head off on tangents completely unrelated to what I said, fail to address what I said, and mostly just repeat a position that (1) I never contested (2) never discussed and (3) is not even the subject of our debate. 

 

Frankly, it's not as though there's a plethora of information on the Dalish. Dragon Age has been quite human-centric, particularly in the perspectives provided, and having a "human only" protagonist last time certainly didn't shift things. Maybe that will change with Inquisition. With an elven Inquisitor, I can only hope that we get more information, more perspectives, and some insight into the elven points of view on certain events, including the Dales. I'd certainly be surprised if it wasn't addressed, given how the elven Inquisitor can visit Orlais.

 

The fact that there is little evidence of the Dalish view doesn't somehow justify using things that aren't evidence as evidence. 

[In Exile]

Although Shartan seems to have eventually converted to Andrastianism, I would suspect most of his followers did not. If any significant number of his elven followers did, then it seems unlikely the Chantry would have felt the need to send more missionaries into the Dales. And their rationale for attacking may have been to protect their elven coreligionists. That would have been a pretty powerful message, but they never used it.

 

What is confusing, however, is where the source of belief into the old elven faith came from. The explanation must be that the Tevinters did not stomp it out - even if a great deal of lore was lost, some of it must have survived among some of the elven slaves for them to recreate it. 

[LobselVith8]

This isn't about proving one account or another. It is about using bad evidence. As Jedi Master Orion points out, the Warden can express views that are consistent with either account. The Warden's like is not independent proof, it is merely a dialogue option allowing you to RP your character by expressing a belief as to which of these two accounts you accept.

 

I'm not arguing that either account is historically accurate over the other. I'm stating the simple fact that there are two historical accounts as to what transpired with the Dales. Addressing that the Dalish historical account reads that the war started because of religious intolerance over the elves refusing to convert, combined with the elven Warden explicitly condemning the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert, is sufficient enough.

 

None of that has anything to do with what I said. It's incredibly frustrating to discuss things with you, when you head off on tangents completely unrelated to what I said, fail to address what I said, and mostly just repeat a position that (1) I never contested (2) never discussed and (3) is not even the subject of our debate. 

 

You made a comparison where the protagonist cites an opinion on mages; I already addressed I don't find that to be comparable to referencing a historical event. It's apples and oranges, simple as that.

 

As for addressing the minimal information on the Dalish, I'm pointing out that perhaps Inquisition will provide more information for us. I was trying to conclude the discussion on a friendly note, but clearly you were offended, and I apologize for that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What is confusing, however, is where the source of belief into the old elven faith came from. The explanation must be that the Tevinters did not stomp it out - even if a great deal of lore was lost, some of it must have survived among some of the elven slaves for them to recreate it. 

 

I always assumed that was the explanation.

[In Exile]

I always assumed that was the explanation.

I just find it very implausible. The elves were slaves for generations, in horrible conditions. I find it very hard to believe any shred of elven culture could survive. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They must have made some sort of underground concerted effort to keep their culture alive. I have no idea if such a thing would be possible in real life, but The explanation works for me in the Dragon Age story here.

[TK514]

I just find it very implausible. The elves were slaves for generations, in horrible conditions. I find it very hard to believe any shred of elven culture could survive. 

 

It may have been things they picked up in ruins after their liberation.  But that leads to the question "How could they read ancient Elvish?"  As slaves, it seems unlikely they would be encouraged towards literacy at all, Fenris being a modern example, much less literacy in a language and culture Tevinter was attempting to wipe out.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Based on Tamlen's reaction at the start of the Dalish Origin, I think written elvish is incompressible even to the Dalish, aside from bits and pieces. I double checked World of Thedas to see if there was any more insights. It mentions that the Dalish religion is "assembled patchwork of what might have been" and it's largely based on conjecture.

 

And going back to the big 2009 David Gaider infodump post, he says this:

 

"As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time."

[In Exile]

They must have made some sort of underground concerted effort to keep their culture alive. I have no idea if such a thing would be possible in real life, but The explanation works for me in the Dragon Age story here.

 

I'm with you on all counts. Frankly, I think this is one of the aspects of the settings the devs would probably prefer we just accept without thinking too hard about. 

 

It may have been things they picked up in ruins after their liberation.  But that leads to the question "How could they read ancient Elvish?"  As slaves, it seems unlikely they would be encouraged towards literacy at all, Fenris being a modern example, much less literacy in a language and culture Tevinter was attempting to wipe out.

 

Really early on, DG said that the elves reclamation of their own language and culture involved a great deal of guesswork. I offered as an analogy how modern Hebrew came about, and DG didn't object to the analogy, though he did say to not make too much of that. 

[In Exile]

Based on Tamlen's reaction at the start of the Dalish Origin, I think written elvish is incompressible even to the Dalish, aside from bits and pieces. I double checked World of Thedas to see if there was any more insights. It mentions that the Dalish religion is "assembled patchwork of what might have been" and it's largely based on conjecture.

 

And going back to the big 2009 David Gaider infodump post, he says this:

 

"As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time."

 

Based on that passage, it sounds as if the Dalish have some comprehension of what they find. It may be that not all Dalish can read or understand ancient elvish - it may just be limited to the Keepers - but it is something that at least some of the Dalish can understand. 

[Dean_the_Young]

They must have made some sort of underground concerted effort to keep their culture alive. I have no idea if such a thing would be possible in real life, but The explanation works for me in the Dragon Age story here.

It is possible and does happen in the real world, but it's notoriously unreliable for preserving 'pure' culture. As many things change or are adjusted to fit societal pressures and evade persecution as are kept intact to protect identity.
 

To take an example, pre-European american-indian culture did have mysticism of spirits and hunting communities and tribal traditions, some of which have been preserved to this day. But there were absolutely no pre-European american-indian cultures that hunted buffalo on horseback with teepees and mobile hunting camps, because it was the Europeans who brought in horses. A significant part of tribal culture changed to fit the change of context. Now aday, though, most people (including many of the Ameri-Indians I've met) associate horses with the pre-American 'original' culture.

 

Likely the most relevant and intact elven cultural tradition are the elven pantheon and myths. That's the sort of thing oral history is good at keeping broadly coherent, if not immutable, for long periods of time. The entire spectrum of Dalish nomadism, tribal egaltarianism, and nature-centric hunting and gathering (as oppossed to the stoneworking and magecrafting of the ancients) are likely a mostly or entirely invented cultural identity. The Dalish are far more likely to be big on ironbark because it is available and exceptionally valuable to them, not because the Dales or ancient Arlathan thought it was the bees knees.

[Mistic]

Honestly, the part of the Dales that interests me the most isn't how it came to fall, but how it came to be a Dalish cultural-reclamation state in the first place. It wasn't like a bunch of Arlathan refugees who vaguely remembered how things were before came together to recreate it: we're talking about countless generations of difference of people, many of who were likely Andrastians themselves at that point.

 

The real historical question is 'just how did a movement of reclaiming elven identity come to dominance?' It is treated as a natural and inherent consequence of elven slaves being freed, but that really isn't true. That's just victor's history in action, similar to the idea of 'of course Andraste was going to lead to the Chantry' (or, real world, the idea that the 13 independent colonies of North America would unify into the United States).

 

The Dales weren't given or planned as an elvenhood reclamation project from the start. It could have taken any number of direction- it could have been a multiracial state, it could have been an Andrastian Elf state, it could have been a free religion state in which Andrastianism and Dalish reclamation were both tolerated.

 

Well, the formation of the Dales was actually a rather quick arrangement.

 

The Battle of Valarian Fields, where Shartan and his elves joined Andraste's and Mafertah's army, happened in -171 Ancient. Shartan covnerted some time between that date and -170, when Andraste was betrayed and executed. In -165, Mafertah divided southern Thedas among his sons and allies, which explains that several tribes settled in the territories that would become Orlais, Nevarra and Ferelden (WoT 43-46).

 

It's very likely that the elves were thought as another "allied tribe", and there's something every source agrees on: Maferath gave them the lands because of their help during the war. Everyone says the same, including WoT and the Dalish sources. Then began the famous Long Walk (with its evident similarities to Old Testament tales about the promised land that ironically isn't the place those people were originally from), which started that same -165. We don't know when it ended, but it had to be before -140, according to a codex from WoT.

 

So yes, actually the Dales were given to the elves, and the elves alone, by the victors. What they may have decided afterwards is guessing time. It could have taken any direction, true, but given real life examples of oppressed people fleeing to a promised land and then setting up a regime as bad as the one they were fleeing from in even less time, what the elves did sounds rather realistic.

[Gervaise]

Since there is evidence that elves and humans lived alongside one another in ancient times before the elves withdrew, I'm guessing that may be the first inhabitants of the Dales discovered the equivalent of the Rosetta stone in one of the ruins.   Some of them may have been able to read because their job as slaves was administrative rather than manual (as in Ancient Rome).   The human cypher was familiar because it hadn't changed too much over the years, so they were able to use this to discover the old elven language.

 

I think the problems arose because in the years immediately after Andraste's death there was no unified religion.    The elven cult may well have been different to that found within human settlements.   As time passed, those who wished to restore the ancient elven culture  came to prominence among the leadership of the elves.   I think there is a definite connection between the leadership being mages and what they claim is the old faith.    They definitely promoted the idea that all elves were once capable of magic and therefore it follows that those who still have the gift were more truly elven.    So the non-mage elves accepted the fact that mage elves should be in positions of leadership.     The Chant of Light does not specifically condemn this so long as you do not abuse your power.    However, if any elves had objected on the basis of the Chant, then I expect they were in minority and soon silenced, whether violently or not.

 

Once the Chantry was established, their missionaries started to carry the "official" version of Andraste's religion to the surrounding states.    By this time it had already been decreed by the Chantry that mages should not be in positions of power, even before the establishment of the Circles.   It is ironic to think that the Circles were originally agreed to by the mages so they would have greater freedom to practise their magic than they were allowed when still part of the community.   Anyway, the official line is that mages should not be in positions of government.    So the missionaries turn up in the Dales and discover that not only have the elves abandoned faith in the Maker but also have mages in charge of affairs.   They condemn this, the elves throw them out.   They return with Templars to round up the mages.   The elves retaliate.   Tensions rise and the rest is history.        

 

The Dalish, like the Chantry, sideline Shartan because basically his alliance with humans and adoption of their religion is an embarrassment and direct repudiation of their leaders claims about elven culture.    From now on everything good that has ever happened to the elves is a result of the blessing of their gods for being faithful to the old ways, everything bad as a punishment for neglecting them.   Hence their ability to ignore the plight of the city elves because these elves surrendered to the humans and abandoned the old ways and thus effectively "deserve" everything they suffer.     Some clans take pity on runaways because clearly these elves have seen the light and want to return to the old ways.   I would be interested to know what would happen if a member of the clan, either former city elf or original Dalish decided to adopt the Chant of Light and belief in the Maker.    I imagine they would be banished.

[Xilizhra]

Since there is evidence that elves and humans lived alongside one another in ancient times before the elves withdrew, I'm guessing that may be the first inhabitants of the Dales discovered the equivalent of the Rosetta stone in one of the ruins.   Some of them may have been able to read because their job as slaves was administrative rather than manual (as in Ancient Rome).   The human cypher was familiar because it hadn't changed too much over the years, so they were able to use this to discover the old elven language.

 

I think the problems arose because in the years immediately after Andraste's death there was no unified religion.    The elven cult may well have been different to that found within human settlements.   As time passed, those who wished to restore the ancient elven culture  came to prominence among the leadership of the elves.   I think there is a definite connection between the leadership being mages and what they claim is the old faith.    They definitely promoted the idea that all elves were once capable of magic and therefore it follows that those who still have the gift were more truly elven.    So the non-mage elves accepted the fact that mage elves should be in positions of leadership.     The Chant of Light does not specifically condemn this so long as you do not abuse your power.    However, if any elves had objected on the basis of the Chant, then I expect they were in minority and soon silenced, whether violently or not.

 

Once the Chantry was established, their missionaries started to carry the "official" version of Andraste's religion to the surrounding states.    By this time it had already been decreed by the Chantry that mages should not be in positions of power, even before the establishment of the Circles.   It is ironic to think that the Circles were originally agreed to by the mages so they would have greater freedom to practise their magic than they were allowed when still part of the community.   Anyway, the official line is that mages should not be in positions of government.    So the missionaries turn up in the Dales and discover that not only have the elves abandoned faith in the Maker but also have mages in charge of affairs.   They condemn this, the elves throw them out.   They return with Templars to round up the mages.   The elves retaliate.   Tensions rise and the rest is history.        

 

The Dalish, like the Chantry, sideline Shartan because basically his alliance with humans and adoption of their religion is an embarrassment and direct repudiation of their leaders claims about elven culture.    From now on everything good that has ever happened to the elves is a result of the blessing of their gods for being faithful to the old ways, everything bad as a punishment for neglecting them.   Hence their ability to ignore the plight of the city elves because these elves surrendered to the humans and abandoned the old ways and thus effectively "deserve" everything they suffer.     Some clans take pity on runaways because clearly these elves have seen the light and want to return to the old ways.   I would be interested to know what would happen if a member of the clan, either former city elf or original Dalish decided to adopt the Chant of Light and belief in the Maker.    I imagine they would be banished.

Something like this is possible, but I think the formation of the Dales may have been somewhat more violent than that, with the belief in reclamation of Arlathan growing more isolationist specifically due to the violence of Andrastians. The traditional practice of mages as community leaders among the elves, which likely wouldn't have stopped in Tevinter, might have been an object of great exception to Andrastian elves, and once the Chantry pulled together and things started becoming more formalized, it seems quite probable, given the evangelizing and exclusionary nature of the Andrastian religion, that those elves tried to destroy the Arlathanian social order... and failed. Unfortunately, Orlais later succeeded, but the Dalish seem to have preserved a fair bit of it, even if some of the details grew foggy.

[LobselVith8]

I decided to return from my sabbatical to address some points that were previously made.

 

True, true. I was thinking in terms of the less formal pressures.

 

If we want to get formal, a variant on the Taliban might be better. Former allies, historical grievances, achieving a bastion for implementing a utopian project of reclaiming moral and spiritual purity.

 

I strongly disagree with you. The Taliban are a religiously extremist off-shoot of a culture that in and of itself disowns them as perverting the practice of Islam itself through terrorism. The Dalish are a culture unto themselves, fragments of a broken kingdom. They have more than just a religion to justify their existence, and fighting to maintain their cultural autonomy is their right just as much as it is the right of any sovereign nation, no matter how small, to defend themselves against enemies both foreign and domestic.

 

Furthermore, where are your citations that this is what the Dalish are doing? Where are your examples? And 'moral and spiritual purity' according to whom? Ancient Arlathan? Post-lapsarian Dalish?

 

Honestly, the part of the Dales that interests me the most isn't how it came to fall, but how it came to be a Dalish cultural-reclamation state in the first place. It wasn't like a bunch of Arlathan refugees who vaguely remembered how things were before came together to recreate it: we're talking about countless generations of difference of people, many of who were likely Andrastians themselves at that point.

 

This is a false equivalency. Generally speaking, you're applying a globalized, multi-religious cultural view to a non-globalized world. The idea of accepted multi-cultural states like the Andrastian/Creators split you mention in your post are thoroughly results of a globalized way of thinking.

 

You're setting up Arlathan's empire as sort of a "pure" baseline for Elven culture, but that doesn't mean the present culture of the current Dalish are somehow invalid; that's like saying modern Italians don't count because they're not the Roman Empire.

 

As for 'many of whom are likely Andrastians themselves', this is sheer assumption with no evidence to support it.

 

The real historical question is 'just how did a movement of reclaiming elven identity come to dominance?' It is treated as a natural and inherent consequence of elven slaves being freed, but that really isn't true. That's just victor's history in action, similar to the idea of 'of course Andraste was going to lead to the Chantry' (or, real world, the idea that the 13 independent colonies of North America would unify into the United States).

 

I don't find it persuasive how you're basically setting up your terms and saying "here's what matters" and boxing everything else out. Then you compare it to a teleological argument founded in hindsight, your whole, "well, obviously 'x' was going to happen, how could it not?" gambit, but you leave out that the Dales was the result of slave emancipation.

 

As for your point 'but that really isn't true', well, why couldn't it be?

 

The Dales weren't given or planned as an elvenhood reclamation project from the start. It could have taken any number of direction- it could have been a multiracial state, it could have been an Andrastian Elf state, it could have been a free religion state in which Andrastianism and Dalish reclamation were both tolerated.

 

Yes, it could have been all of those things. But it wasn't. I could also have been born a cat. But I wasn't. Your point?

 

There is nothing inherent about the success of an ideology that the elves could reclaim immortality if separated from humans... and there's nothing inherent about the success of the establishment in asserting those views over the preferences of those who would disagree. The Dalish speak much about the freedom to be elven, but nothing about any freedom to be Andrastian. We know nothing about internal Dales politics, but whoever controlled the Emerald Guard certainly didn't want to allow anyone who would encourage cultural deviancy. External blockades rarely exist without internal enforcement either.

 

The fact that the Dalish can leave the clan anytime they want to undermines your point. Zevran's mother, Arianni, Zevran, Velanna, Merrill - all of them are examples of elves who were allowed to go their own way. Aneirin, after being rescued and later taught about ancient elven magic and given vallaslin, was allowed to part from the clan to live among nature, and follow the clan at a distance.

 

The idea that all the elves of the Dales agreed is, if we know anything about how 'human' the elves can be, total nonsense not worth taking seriously.

 

 This makes no sense. With this statement, you're dismissing all dissenting opinions out of hand as being de facto wrong.

[Drasanil]

I just find it very implausible. The elves were slaves for generations, in horrible conditions. I find it very hard to believe any shred of elven culture could survive. 

 

Well apparently the elves bought their way into the grey wardens as equals by giving them some magical secrets from Arlathan. Also given what we know about Tevinter it's entirely possible that while most slaves were elves and most elves were also slaves, some elven families could have been liberati or even Laetan if they produced mages as is the case in the modern Imperium.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The fact that the Dalish can leave the clan anytime they want to undermines your point. Zevran's mother, Arianni, Zevran, Velanna, Merrill - all of them are examples of elves who were allowed to go their own way. Aneirin, after being rescued and later taught about ancient elven magic and given vallaslin, was allowed to part from the clan to live among nature, and follow the clan at a distance.

My Dalish Inquisitor couldn't leave when they wanted. Heck, they were forced to get Vallaslin. 

[Drasanil]

My Dalish Inquisitor couldn't leave when they wanted. Heck, they were forced to get Vallaslin. 

 

No they weren't. You're just not happy Vallasin is a mandatory part of character creation for this game. Anything more is just head-cannon that has no bearing on the issue. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No they weren't. You're just not happy Vallasin is a mandatory part of character creation for this game. Anything more is just head-cannon that has no bearing on the issue. 

If what I wrote isn't an option in dialogue, then everything I have complained about is valid and the people saying I can still make the Elf I want was a lie.