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[Fast Jimmy]

Prices that aren't obviously absurd. Recall Jimmy's example of a Gold Bar that sells for 3 silver pieces.

The smelting process of turning it into currency is ridiculously expensive!

"They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers
But what's the real cost, cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper...
Oooooooh... why are we paying so much for sneakers when you've got 'em made by lite slave kids...
What are your overheads?!"

A little Flight of the Conchords to break the conversation up.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wait shouldn't it say "realistic loot"?

"Realistic" is a thorny term in a fantasy setting. Is it realistic to find dragon scales or magical runes? No, but it may very well be logical, depending on the setting and situation.


It's always a case of the tail wagging the dog, though. Every potion, trap, enchantment or piece of equipment is evaluated on "when would the player find this and how much gold would they, on average, have on then at the time?" Instead of "how much would this item cost in the world of Thedas?" Are runes and enchanted equipment that expensive to manufacture? Given that the Tranquil do it for free, it would seem that it wouldn't. And it would also seem that the soldiers of the Chantry (such as the Templars) would have cheaper or easier access to such equipment over the average soldier or layman. Or, conversely, the dwarves (who also are big on lyrium manipulation).

Instead, magical equipment is evenly distributed across humans, Qunari, dwarves, Templars, Darkspawn, spirits, brontos, giant spiders, GIANT giant spiders and nugs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sometimes absurd prices fit gameplay. If a bowl of soup has very potent healing affects, it would break the game to be priced for a few coins. The player could load up and spam them. Or a healing potion, if they can made from simple and abundent ingrediants, as they often can be. If they're 'realistically' cheap healing effectively becomes free and unlimited.

Or ammunition. One .308 in New Vegas costs 4 caps a pop, and there doesn't seem to be any issue with supply. When the player can aquire hundreds of 'dollars' in the span of minutes, and 50 rounds lasts a long time, pricing them realistically would render ammo effectively free.

Then those prices aren't absurd. You're absolutely correct that prices have no reason to resemble real world prices.

But they should make sense together, as in your examples. Value is what matters; a healing soup has value.

If an ordinary sword costs 20 gp, then 20 gp shouldn't be a lot of money in the setting unless swords are rare. But if every adult has a sword, then they're not rare.

An important part of this is NPC behaviour. How they respond to money should reflect its value.

Has anyone else noticed that when you buy drinks at Tapsters in Orzammar, the price you pay doesn't match the price you are quoted?

[Fast Jimmy]

Then those prices aren't absurd. You're absolutely correct that prices have no reason to resemble real world prices.
But they should make sense together, as in your examples. Value is what matters; a healing soup has value.
If an ordinary sword costs 20 gp, then 20 gp shouldn't be a lot of money in the setting unless swords are rare. But if every adult has a sword, then they're not rare.
An important part of this is NPC behaviour. How they respond to money should reflect its value.
Has anyone else noticed that when you buy drinks at Tapsters in Orzammar, the price you pay doesn't match the price you are quoted?

Leave it to a dwarf to swindle a man while he is drinking.

[Schreckstoff]

"Realistic" is a thorny term in a fantasy setting. Is it realistic to find dragon scales or magical runes? No, but it may very well be logical, depending on the setting and situation.


It's always a case of the tail wagging the dog, though. Every potion, trap, enchantment or piece of equipment is evaluated on "when would the player find this and how much gold would they, on average, have on then at the time?" Instead of "how much would this item cost in the world of Thedas?" Are runes and enchanted equipment that expensive to manufacture? Given that the Tranquil do it for free, it would seem that it wouldn't. And it would also seem that the soldiers of the Chantry (such as the Templars) would have cheaper or easier access to such equipment over the average soldier or layman. Or, conversely, the dwarves (who also are big on lyrium manipulation).

Instead, magical equipment is evenly distributed across humans, Qunari, dwarves, Templars, Darkspawn, spirits, brontos, giant spiders, GIANT giant spiders and nugs.

Reality is subjective to the world much more than logic is. While fiction most often plays in it's own reality logic remains roughly the same just with added functions a la magic, resistances etc.

[Fast Jimmy]

Reality is subjective to the world much more than logic is. While fiction most often plays in it's own reality logic remains roughly the same just with added functions a la magic, resistances etc.

Well, not to mention the real world has the added benefit of being real, and therefore the most realistic possible.

[PsychoBlonde]

Prices that aren't obviously absurd.  Recall Jimmy's example of a Gold Bar that sells for 3 silver pieces.

 

You forgot the "100 sovereigns a head!" slave price quote from Hayder that was, in the context of the game economy (inasmuch as there is such a thing in these games), completely absurd.  One wretched slave is worth more than it costs to fund an entire Deep Roads expedition with guards and merchants and mages and supplies?  We got into the wrong dang business.  I could probably fill my bathtub with Lyrium for that amount of money.  Actually, yes, given that lyrium dust costs two silvers.  If you (estimate) that to be an ounce, you can get 5000 ounces of lyrium for 100 sovereigns (1 sovereign = 100 silver) which is 39 gallons.  Average bath is 35-50 gallons.  So the lyrium bath is definitely doable.

That also means you were carrying around about half a bathtub worth of lyrium during the Precious Metals quest.  Granted, an ounce may be generous, but the dust may also be diluted with water in potions (or the lyrium may not be "refined").  Also you were dealing with a dwarf and the lyrium was smuggled goods so the price might have been inflated several dozen times. Who knows.  Anyway 100 sovereigns is still way too much unless they were some kind of exotic foreign bedroom slaves trained in all the positions of the Kama Sutra and also 5 musical instruments, entertaining conversation, calligraphy, poetry, flower arranging, dance, board games, and the tea ceremony.

[PsychoBlonde]

Although, to be fair, absurd economics has a long history in RPG's.  In Baldur's Gate 2 you're asked to accumulate the "ridiculous" sum of 25,000 gold in order to sail to Spellhold.  I was like "pfffft I've dropped that much on magic items I don't even plan to use".

[Fast Jimmy]

You forgot the "100 sovereigns a head!" slave price quote from Hayder that was, in the context of the game economy (inasmuch as there is such a thing in these games), completely absurd.  One wretched slave is worth more than it costs to fund an entire Deep Roads expedition with guards and merchants and mages and supplies?  We got into the wrong dang business.  I could probably fill my bathtub with Lyrium for that amount of money.  Actually, yes, given that lyrium dust costs two silvers.  If you (estimate) that to be an ounce, you can get 5000 ounces of lyrium for 100 sovereigns (1 sovereign = 100 silver) which is 39 gallons.  Average bath is 35-50 gallons.  So the lyrium bath is definitely doable.
That also means you were carrying around about half a bathtub worth of lyrium during the Precious Metals quest.  Granted, an ounce may be generous, but the dust may also be diluted with water in potions (or the lyrium may not be "refined").  Also you were dealing with a dwarf and the lyrium was smuggled goods so the price might have been inflated several dozen times. Who knows.  Anyway 100 sovereigns is still way too much unless they were some kind of exotic foreign bedroom slaves trained in all the positions of the Kama Sutra and also 5 musical instruments, entertaining conversation, calligraphy, poetry, flower arranging, dance, board games, and the tea ceremony.

Yeah... a pox on the head of the writer who wrote that line of dialogue and forever destroyed the Thedosian economy.

[Fast Jimmy]

Although, to be fair, absurd economics has a long history in RPG's.  In Baldur's Gate 2 you're asked to accumulate the "ridiculous" sum of 25,000 gold in order to sail to Spellhold.  I was like "pfffft I've dropped that much on magic items I don't even plan to use".

I don't disagree - RPGs have been very much more in favor of "make it up based on the gameplay" rather than following any sort of internal consistency. But that can be seen for ALL things, not just money.


I'd honestly be interested in someone attempting a procedurally created universe with an RPG, where they create some basic rules of the universe and some key starting points, let the world run on auto pilot for a few centuries or millenia, then hop in and attach plot, characters and story into the world that is created, complete with economy, mechanics and power structures. That would be an incredibly fascinating project (for me, personally).

[Fast Jimmy]

That would be interesting actually. The project wouldn't even need graphics for the time being. They can be attached to the logical models later. That would be a lot of persistent data though, probably could use a whole lot of ram if developed sloppy too.

Well, the developer would only need to run it once, I would think. And then creTe the game on the back of the results of said data. I don't think you'd be able to procedurally generate an RPG world with an actual plot in it, as dialogue, art assets, quest, overall story couldn't be created on the fly.

But things like kingdoms, structures, armies, materials, money, goods, etc. could. The team could then analyze the rwuslts over the past epochs of the world's past and patch together a history, add some color that the numbers wouldn't capture, insert some personality into the leaders of the world now, pull out and add in some pieces to the puzzle to spice things up and PRESTO!

Insta-RPG world, completely consistent and developed. You'd just need to actually then make the RPG to go with it.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, the developer would only need to run it once, I would think. And then creTe the game on the back of the results of said data. I don't think you'd be able to procedurally generate an RPG world with an actual plot in it, as dialogue, art assets, quest, overall story couldn't be created on the fly.

But things like kingdoms, structures, armies, materials, money, goods, etc. could. The team could then analyze the rwuslts over the past epochs of the world's past and patch together a history, add some color that the numbers wouldn't capture, insert some personality into the leaders of the world now, pull out and add in some pieces to the puzzle to spice things up and PRESTO!

Insta-RPG world, completely consistent and developed. You'd just need to actually then make the RPG to go with it.

 

I think you're somewhat trivializing the effort with "insta-RPG world" though.

[Schreckstoff]

I think you're somewhat trivializing the effort with "insta-RPG world" though.

I think an accurate simulation would take a super computer quite a while.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think you're somewhat trivializing the effort with "insta-RPG world" though.

Well, it wouldn't be a good forum suggestion without a healthy dose of "this will be totally easy to implement" mentality.

[metatheurgist]

I'd honestly be interested in someone attempting a procedurally created universe with an RPG, where they create some basic rules of the universe and some key starting points, let the world run on auto pilot for a few centuries or millenia, then hop in and attach plot, characters and story into the world that is created, complete with economy, mechanics and power structures. That would be an incredibly fascinating project (for me, personally).

You know what'll happen though. The resulting world will not be what the creator expected. After being scrapped several times the inhabitants of the world will then gather a group of heroes to try and prevent the next apocalypse.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think you're somewhat trivializing the effort with "insta-RPG world" though.

Can't we rely on future technology to solve that problem?

 

Or just get student interns to do all the work?

[In Exile]

Can't we rely on future technology to solve that problem?

 

Or just get student interns to do all the work?

This just reminds me of this exchange from Archer:

 

Woodhouse: Er, technically your mother is my employer, so -- 

Archer: Really?

Woodhouse: Who do you think's been paying my salary all these years? 

Archer: I just thought you were -- Well, slave's not the right word, but -- Really? Mother pays you? 

[Fast Jimmy]

This just reminds me of this exchange from Archer:
 
Woodhouse: Er, technically your mother is my employer, so -- 
Archer: Really?
Woodhouse: Who do you think's been paying my salary all these years? 
Archer: I just thought you were -- Well, slave's not the right word, but -- Really? Mother pays you?

Archer is possibly the best show on television that perfectly matches the writing with the voice/delivery of the actor. Jon Benjamin was BORN to play that role.

Back on track... I'd be immensely interested to see the results of a long term simulation in a magical world with demons and spells. Would the ability to control magic become a recessive trait? Something that is bred into the entire population? Something completely removed from genetics entirely? That, to my nerd brain, would be much more interesting than any story that a writer would envision.

[Schreckstoff]

Archer is possibly the best show on television that perfectly matches the writing with the voice/delivery of the actor. Jon Benjamin was BORN to play that role.

Back on track... I'd be immensely interested to see the results of a long term simulation in a magical world with demons and spells. Would the ability to control magic become a recessive trait? Something that is bred into the entire population? Something completely removed from genetics entirely? That, to my nerd brain, would be much more interesting than any story that a writer would envision.

I wish Aisha Tyler would have voiced the fem Quiz with unique banter making fun of her manly hands.

[Devtek]

Prices that aren't obviously absurd.  Recall Jimmy's example of a Gold Bar that sells for 3 silver pieces.

 

So gold can only be worth gold? It could be a really small gold bar that was worth 3 silver pieces...