131 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

there is no honor in the real world its false hope told by people to ease into false sence of security what you dont know will kill you or worse.

I don't think you really understand what honor is.

[Mistic]

That's really not how alliances work. Especially when one party still has and upholds laws making it illegal to kill in defense of the other. The enemy of my enemy who also oppresses me is also my oppressor, not my friend.

 

It makes about as much sense as a Dalish-City Elf-Circle alliance against the dastardly Chantry. Which is to say, not really.

 

True. There are so many assumptions when dealing with these matters. Although there are many cases in real and Thedosian history of that 'the enemy of my enemy...', there are more instances that should be taken into consideration.

 

Also, are we really sure who is the enemy?

 

For example, I've seen a lot of people saying that Celene is the best hope for elven independence or autonomy, and that an elven Inquisitor may help in that regard. However, the Elf Inquisitor is always Dalish and as far as I can remember, Celene has her hands stained with a whole clan's blood, while Gaspard is clean (yes, he suggested in the past going against the Dalish, but the Empress sent him to kill darkspawn instead).

 

TME can tell two different elven stories. On the one hand, the pan-elven story of a valiant City Elf fighting for her people's freedom and claiming a powerful tool to help the elves everywhere, if only the elf-friendly Empress Celene would understand. On the other hand, the strictly Dalish tale of a traitorous flat-ear helping an elf-killing Empress and her champion to wipe out a whole clan and then stealing all the efforts that same clan had done to claim the Eluvian network as her personal toy.

[Napoleonicus]

I don't think you really understand what honor is.

 

I don't really think you realise how little it matters in the grand scheme of things. Social Darwinism is the true unwritten law that rules even our societies. Sure, we try to even the playing field with those who are disadvantaged and maintain a level of justice, but the fact remains that you don't bother the guy who's a foot taller and beefier than you, and wether he's guilty or not, the billionnaire won't go to prison. It's survival of the fittest, and high-minded ideals can do little about it. Where is the honor there?

[Sir DeLoria]

Social Darwinism is the true unwritten law that rules even our societies.

No. Social Darwinism is a very controversial, disputed and inconsistent theory found only in the most laissez-faire societies and lacking any evidence. This theory is so heavily abused(fascists, nazis, eugenics etc) and has so little to do with Darwin it's a shame it even carries his name.

Darwin never defined the "fittest" as necessarily the strongest or smartest. The theory completely ignores co-operation as a major factor of survival. And co-operation requires honor in form of trust and societal roles.

Not even that it really matters, because Social Darwinism and honor are not at all mutually exclusive.

Sure, we try to even the playing field with those who are disadvantaged and maintain a level of justice, but the fact remains that you don't bother the guy who's a foot taller and beefier than you, and wether he's guilty or not, the billionnaire won't go to prison. It's survival of the fittest, and high-minded ideals can do little about it. Where is the honor there?

Those examples are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Sure, honor isn't a factor in every one of our little daily actions but it's undisputably one of the most important things in society as a whole.

How do you imagine a society without any obligations, expectations, rules, laws or morals? There isn't, there can not be.

[LobselVith8]

That's really not how alliances work. Especially when one party still has and upholds laws making it illegal to kill in defense of the other. The enemy of my enemy who also oppresses me is also my oppressor, not my friend.

 

I don't recall any developer addressing whether or not that law was still being upheld in Ferelden, particularly when King Alistair is willing to bring an elf into the royal court despite the controversy it causes.

 

It makes about as much sense as a Dalish-City Elf-Circle alliance against the dastardly Chantry. Which is to say, not really.

 

If the Inquisitor allies with the autonomous mages and they become a militant arm of Inquisition after a regional victory in the Mage-Templar War (which is what Cameron Lee suggested was possible, even early on in the storyline), and the Inquisitor allies with the elves who are fighting to free their people (based on the conclusion of "The Masked Empire"), then I think an alliance makes sense.

[Xilizhra]

True. There are so many assumptions when dealing with these matters. Although there are many cases in real and Thedosian history of that 'the enemy of my enemy...', there are more instances that should be taken into consideration.

 

Also, are we really sure who is the enemy?

 

For example, I've seen a lot of people saying that Celene is the best hope for elven independence or autonomy, and that an elven Inquisitor may help in that regard. However, the Elf Inquisitor is always Dalish and as far as I can remember, Celene has her hands stained with a whole clan's blood, while Gaspard is clean (yes, he suggested in the past going against the Dalish, but the Empress sent him to kill darkspawn instead).

 

TME can tell two different elven stories. On the one hand, the pan-elven story of a valiant City Elf fighting for her people's freedom and claiming a powerful tool to help the elves everywhere, if only the elf-friendly Empress Celene would understand. On the other hand, the strictly Dalish tale of a traitorous flat-ear helping an elf-killing Empress and her champion to wipe out a whole clan and then stealing all the efforts that same clan had done to claim the Eluvian network as her personal toy.

I find it incredibly unlikely that Gaspard is willing to compromise on matters like this.

 

As for the elven Inquisitor, mine is much more on the pan-elven side of things. And if I have to put up with Cullen, I'm clearly good at forgiving past deeds and associations.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

You know, seeing as there might be a possibility of a non-companion, non-follower romance, perhaps the Human Noble Inquisitor, the Trevelyan, can get into a marriage with Celene / Gaspard and rule Orlais together

[Mistic]

I find it incredibly unlikely that Gaspard is willing to compromise on matters like this.

 

As for the elven Inquisitor, mine is much more on the pan-elven side of things. And if I have to put up with Cullen, I'm clearly good at forgiving past deeds and associations.

 

No, he doesn't seem willing to compromise. On the bright side, if he makes a promise, he will fulfill it no matter what. It's time to put those skill points in persuasion...

 

I prefer pan-elven myself, yes. However, I feel that the complete destruction of Clan Virnehn has been overlooked. I mean, many people said that an elven Inquisition would take issue on what Celene did in Halamshiral or even Leliana's role in it, yet I think a Dalish Inquisitor would be more horrified by what happened to Clan Virnehn. A prickly matter, since Briala, the defender of the City Elves, was involved.

[Xilizhra]

No, he doesn't seem willing to compromise. On the bright side, if he makes a promise, he will fulfill it no matter what. It's time to put those skill points in persuasion...

 

I prefer pan-elven myself, yes. However, I feel that the complete destruction of Clan Virnehn has been overlooked. I mean, many people said that an elven Inquisition would take issue on what Celene did in Halamshiral or even Leliana's role in it, yet I think a Dalish Inquisitor would be more horrified by what happened to Clan Virnehn. A prickly matter, since Briala, the defender of the City Elves, was involved.

Who actually released Imshael, for clarity's sake?

[TK514]

Who actually released Imshael, for clarity's sake?

Michel. Though to be fair, he thought he was destroying the demon instead.

Edit: Oh, and Felassan, who knew better, stood by and let him do it.

[Mistic]

Who actually released Imshael, for clarity's sake?

 

Michel was the one to do the deed. After meeting Imshael in his seal, he had a conversation with the Empress and they both saw the potential of the Eluvians. Because just escaping wasn't enough when there was a fast-travel system near them. Nevermind that you had to make a deal with a demon in order to get the Eluvians. The Dalish were stupid to summon Imshael, but at least they were clever enough to bound him. Briala actually saw the implications, but Celene convinced her that the Dalish were not her people and that she should help her instead. Then Briala convinced Felassan and the two elves staged the humans' escape.

 

In Michel's defense, he tried to trick the demon by himself. Of course, that was exactly what the demon expected him to do and tricked the chevalier. So Michel broke the seal, expecting the demon to vanish, and instead the demon went to "play" with the elves. Again, Michel showed his best side and suggested going after the demon, but Briala, Felassan and Celene said otherwise.

 

So yeah, we have five main culprits: Imshael who killed the clan, Michel who released him, Celene who was giving the orders to Michel, and Briala and Felassan who released them from the Dalish' custody despite knowing what they were trying to do.

[Dean_the_Young]

True. There are so many assumptions when dealing with these matters. Although there are many cases in real and Thedosian history of that 'the enemy of my enemy...', there are more instances that should be taken into consideration.

 

Also, are we really sure who is the enemy?

 

For example, I've seen a lot of people saying that Celene is the best hope for elven independence or autonomy, and that an elven Inquisitor may help in that regard. However, the Elf Inquisitor is always Dalish and as far as I can remember, Celene has her hands stained with a whole clan's blood, while Gaspard is clean (yes, he suggested in the past going against the Dalish, but the Empress sent him to kill darkspawn instead).

 

TME can tell two different elven stories. On the one hand, the pan-elven story of a valiant City Elf fighting for her people's freedom and claiming a powerful tool to help the elves everywhere, if only the elf-friendly Empress Celene would understand. On the other hand, the strictly Dalish tale of a traitorous flat-ear helping an elf-killing Empress and her champion to wipe out a whole clan and then stealing all the efforts that same clan had done to claim the Eluvian network as her personal toy.

 

I need to get my own copy of TME (rather than the one I borrowed long ago) so that I can brush up on that and use it. Especially if I can put the Honorable Shemlen who aided the lone survivor of the Dalish Massacre.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't recall any developer addressing whether or not that law was still being upheld in Ferelden, particularly when King Alistair is willing to bring an elf into the royal court despite the controversy it causes.

 

 

King Alistair bringing an elf into the royal court is far less impressive than Celene's established reforms, and does not reverse the elf-human relationship in Ferelden anymore than Celene's own elven advisor.
 

 

If the Inquisitor allies with the autonomous mages and they become a militant arm of Inquisition after a regional victory in the Mage-Templar War (which is what Cameron Lee suggested was possible, even early on in the storyline), and the Inquisitor allies with the elves who are fighting to free their people (based on the conclusion of "The Masked Empire"), then I think an alliance makes sense.

 

You find many things make sense. You are quite good at it, when you ignore relevant context and facts to the contrary and don't pay attention to what you are replying to.

[Xilizhra]

Michel was the one to do the deed. After meeting Imshael in his seal, he had a conversation with the Empress and they both saw the potential of the Eluvians. Because just escaping wasn't enough when there was a fast-travel system near them. Nevermind that you had to make a deal with a demon in order to get the Eluvians. The Dalish were stupid to summon Imshael, but at least they were clever enough to bound him. Briala actually saw the implications, but Celene convinced her that the Dalish were not her people and that she should help her instead. Then Briala convinced Felassan and the two elves staged the humans' escape.

 

In Michel's defense, he tried to trick the demon by himself. Of course, that was exactly what the demon expected him to do and tricked the chevalier. So Michel broke the seal, expecting the demon to vanish, and instead the demon went to "play" with the elves. Again, Michel showed his best side and suggested going after the demon, but Briala, Felassan and Celene said otherwise.

 

So yeah, we have five main culprits: Imshael who killed the clan, Michel who released him, Celene who was giving the orders to Michel, and Briala and Felassan who released them from the Dalish' custody despite knowing what they were trying to do.

So virtually no one in this whole mess is a good option? Bah. I suppose I might restrict myself solely to Inquisitorial matters in Orlais if that's the case. But if it is, it's definitely the part of the game that I'll want over with the fastest.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

As for the elven Inquisitor, mine is much more on the pan-elven side of things. And if I have to put up with Cullen, I'm clearly good at forgiving past deeds and associations.

 

Actually it just means you are impotent.

 

Confusing impotence for virtue is a common mistake.

[Xilizhra]

Actually it just means you are impotent.

 

Confusing impotence for virtue is a common mistake.

As a player, sure. But my character in-universe could take another option, in theory, even if the game wouldn't allow that choice to be made.

[Mistic]

I need to get my own copy of TME (rather than the one I borrowed long ago) so that I can brush up on that and use it. Especially if I can put the Honorable Shemlen who aided the lone survivor of the Dalish Massacre.

 

Well, it was more of a mutual interest. Gaspard had his men ready to attack (logical) and even suggested that he couldn't leave an apostate mage go free (hypocritical, since he already had Lienne), but they found common ground: the wish to kill Celene and Michel.

 

It didn't last long, though. Gaspard agreeing to a truce angered her, although her mood improved when Gaspard and Michel fought in their duel. But once she was freed from Imshael's possession she chose to help Briala and go with her when she faced Celene. Yet for her help the only thing she got from Birala was a lecture and an offer: if the Dalish help Briala, Briala will help them.

 

As many others, I thought well of Briala's intentions and actions during the book, but now I'm preparing a roleplay playthrough for Inquisition as a Dalish Mage and I'm trying to look at things from another point of view. It's easy to criticize her from a human, especially an Orlesian, perspective, but the Dalish may also take issue with her actions.

[sunnydxmen]

I don't think you really understand what honor is.

 

i understand it perfect;y  thank you very much.

[Pierce Miller]

I doubt the mages who are slaves in Tevinter feel that way.

Those mages are likely nothing more than lantern lighters.

[Pierce Miller]

Power won't save you from a poisoned drink or a slit throat at night.

Assassination is one of the most common political means in Tevinter.

Powerful mages tend to be intelligent, they actually explore their powers. Intelligence would indicate some level of perception. I bet that the Archon himself is an incredibly accomplished mage. 

[Pierce Miller]

Yeah sure, so I assume you can name me a few civilizations where people didn't trust or rely on each other, where societal roles and jobs didn't exist and where no one had any morals or dignity.

I have never heard of a working community made up of antisocial sociopaths.

Honor is one of the foundations of a working society. It's not naïve, it's normal.

People do those things out of necessity. Humanity works together because that's the only way they could survive.

[The King In The North]

You know, seeing as there might be a possibility of a non-companion, non-follower romance, perhaps the Human Noble Inquisitor, the Trevelyan, can get into a marriage with Celene / Gaspard and rule Orlais together

hope so my friend i love me some celene 

[Dean_the_Young]

As a player, sure. But my character in-universe could take another option, in theory, even if the game wouldn't allow that choice to be made.

 

Nah, your in-universe character is impotent as well. Either it simply doesn't occur to them, or they can't for Reasons.

[Razored1313]

Normally I don't meta game on the first play through, and I always try and do the best I can to help whatever city/country I'm in. However, I despise Orlais and the "game" so much I will purposely go out of my way to look up and pick the worst outcomes for them, whatever that entails short of getting the demons win ending.

[LobselVith8]

King Alistair bringing an elf into the royal court is far less impressive than Celene's established reforms, and does not reverse the elf-human relationship in Ferelden anymore than Celene's own elven advisor.

Your opinion on which nation is more progressive has nothing to do with how King Alistair seems to care about the elves, as well as the possibility that this law may have been overturned by the new ruler.

You find many things make sense. You are quite good at it, when you ignore relevant context and facts to the contrary and don't pay attention to what you are replying to.

I didn't realize I was meant to take your snide remarks all that seriously.