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WHAT TO DO WITH ORLAIS


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#126
Dean_the_Young

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Your opinion on which nation is more progressive has nothing to do with how King Alistair seems to care about the elves, as well as the possibility that this law may have been overturned by the new ruler.
 

 

King Alistair's relative progressiveness as a whole has quite a bit to do with how he would be seen vis-a-vis Celene, a proven reformer who is none the less The Enemy. That you focus on how King Alistair seems to care, from a out-of-universe player viewpoint that still depends on unsupported possibilities of legislative change and hypothetical alliances that themselves are unfounded and unforeshadowed, is a far weaker argument for how the in-universe of the elves will perceive him than the fact that, holy ****, in the possibly not-even not-so-distant-past Ferelden is a place where killing in defense of elves is a crime.

 

You need to show a compelling case that an alliance from Alistair, if offered, would even be credible to the city elves or Orlais. A single elf on the advisory council is about as compelling as Saddam's use of a women to disprove misogyny in pre-war Iraq.

 

 


I didn't realize I was meant to take your snide remarks all that seriously.

 

It's more of a self-fulfilling observation of your posting style, as you vindicated in your reply.



#127
LobselVith8

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King Alistair's relative progressiveness as a whole has quite a bit to do with how he would be seen vis-a-vis Celene, a proven reformer who is none the less The Enemy. That you focus on how King Alistair seems to care, from a out-of-universe player viewpoint that still depends on unsupported possibilities of legislative change and hypothetical alliances that themselves are unfounded and unforeshadowed, is a far weaker argument for how the in-universe of the elves will perceive him than the fact that, holy ****, in the possibly not-even not-so-distant-past Ferelden is a place where killing in defense of elves is a crime.

You need to show a compelling case that an alliance from Alistair, if offered, would even be credible to the city elves or Orlais. A single elf on the advisory council is about as compelling as Saddam's use of a women to disprove misogyny in pre-war Iraq.


What I did was point out that King Alistair is willing to make changes that help elves, and address that we don't know if that particular law is still in practice during his reign. My other comment, about a hypothetical alliance with the Inquisition and other factions (notably the mages and elves), doesn't have anything to do with our lack of knowledge about whether or not it's still illegal for someone to kill a human in defense of an elf.

It's more of a self-fulfilling observation of your posting style, as you vindicated in your reply.


Considering your recent post making a comparison to the Taliban in the Dalish thread, it's more of an informed comment based on our collective conversations, as well as you criticizing me for something you did in your previous reply in this thread.

#128
Dean_the_Young

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What I did was point out that King Alistair is willing to make changes that help elves, and address that we don't know if that particular law is still in practice during his reign. My other comment, about a hypothetical alliance with the Inquisition and other factions (notably the mages and elves), doesn't have anything to do with our lack of knowledge about whether or not it's still illegal for someone to kill a human in defense of an elf.
 

It has quite a bit to do with the established tenor of human-elven relations in Ferelden, a tenor that even a sympathetic King Alistair can not dictate and yet would be very relevant for any proposed Ferelden-City Elf alliance.

 

It would almost be as important as the ties and attitude the parties might have towards the proposed target of your hypothetical alliance. The only thing that would undermine an alliance more than the historic and contemporary relationship between city elves oppressed by one humanocracy and another humanocracy that oppresses city elves is if neither were interested in opposing the Chantry. You know, that big, popular, generally-regarded as legitimate body that both Ferelden and the City Elves generally respect and approve of.

 

When I say you're quite good at ignoring facts or context to the contrary of your preferences, this is exactly what I am talking about.

 


Considering your recent post making a comparison to the Taliban in the Dalish thread, it's more of an informed comment based on our collective conversations, as well as you criticizing me for something you did in your previous reply in this thread.

 

 

You probably didn't mean what you actually said here, at least in the context of what you wrote previously.

 

Besides which, what about the comparison? You don't think think a xenophobic and cultural-purist culture would have parallels with the Taliban, who have xenophobic and cultural-purist attitudes? Or you just don't like the comparison, parallels not withstanding?



#129
LobselVith8

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Besides which, what about the comparison? You don't think think a xenophobic and cultural-purist culture has parallels with the Taliban, who have xenophobic and cultural-purist attitudes? Or you just don't like the comparison, parallels not withstanding? You never actually disputed the comparison, after all.


It's an absurd comparison. The culture with a clan who adopted Aveline and took in Feynriel (who, as developers have said, is technically human), with people who want to include the city elves in a free kingdom, and who signed a treaty to aid humanity during the Blight after losing two homelands to humans twice. You're vilifying the entirety of the Dalish despite the facts. When you say things like that, you should expect people to doubt your sincerity.
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#130
Dean_the_Young

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It's an absurd comparison. The culture with a clan who adopted Aveline and took in Feynriel (who, as developers have said, is technically human), with people who want to include the city elves in a free kingdom, and who signed a treaty to aid humanity during the Blight after losing two homelands to humans twice. You're vilifying the entirety of the Dalish despite the facts. When you say things like that, you should expect people to doubt your sincerity.

 

Since none of those disprove or dispute the comparison in question... sincerity doesn't really enter into it. Facts would, but you offer no facts or argument that are incompatible with the comparison. Sincerity would, however, apply towards someone whose invitation for a rebutal between a comparison of the Dales and a contemporary group is... to claim it is absurd, change the subject, and talk about neither the Dales or the comparison.

 

The Dalish Clans are not the Dales. This is a fact. The exceptional success of a legend hundreds of years past does not constitute a trend in any time: the facts of the attitudes and practices in the present that we see do. Some(!) wanting to assimilate and redeem city elves into 'true' elves does not challenge allegations of xenophobia. Collective defense does not mitigate motivations of self-interest and personal survival, especially in light of one of the issues of the Dales was a significant perception of a lack of support during a Blight. That's a fact, quite relevant to the subject of the Dales. These would be relevant facts, if only because they address your raised points (and not because they address the comparison).

 

To round it off, the claim that I am villifying the entirety of the Dalish is baseless. I condemn parts of their culture that I see as ruinous and self-destructive. I am dismissive of the accuracy and authenticity of a religion that, by its own admission, is as much guesswork as historical reclamation. These are not the entirety of the Dalish. I have contempt for ideologies of a reclaiming utopian pasts, and this is not a contempt reserved for the Dalish who cling to it. I am extremely skeptical of grievances of freedom and racial equality and religious tolerance that the Dalish (and, before them, the Dales) have never shown much a propensity as a collective when they were or did have power.

 

But the Dalish, as individuals, are not villainous for following a culture I disapprove of. I do not, and never have, denied that the Dalish can be virtuous and noble people: I simply believe they must rise above their cultural baggage to do so. I do not view the Dalish culture as malevolent: I merely believe it to be short-sighted. I do not support or condone or advocate Dalish massacres as some proper application of collective punishment for some sense of wickedness. 

 

So when you talk about sincerity in an argument, and proceed to ignore the offered discussion and discuss things that are not only irrelevant but also inaccurate, it comes off as more than a tad... well, I'll let someone else decide what you come off as. I'm sure some people find you quite persuasive and reasonable, assuming they already agree with you.

 

But for me, someone who claims a comparison is absurd and never even addresses what parts of it they think are absurd, or provides relevant arguments about their position... that person is probably ignorant about one end of the comparison or the other. Given your reluctant nature to address inconvenient facts and trends of the Dalish, I'm honestly not sure which.



#131
myahele

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Start and Orlaisian revolution. It's the common folk that suffers there. Elves with more rights kill common humans and take lands. Nobles do the same.

#132
Eveangaline

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Honestly while I wish we'd be able to choose the elves, I'm guessing our best odds are just the most elf friendly ruler.