315 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Well, the analogy is an accurate one.

 

No it isn't, don't even go there Xil

 

It's a bs analogy and you know it

[Hellion Rex]

Well, the analogy is an accurate one.

No it's not. Let's move on from that really bad analogy.

[thetinyevil]

The Chantry wouldn't exist without Tevinter. The prohibition against mage rule in the Chant of Light exists because of Tevinter. That doesn't excuse every action taken by the Chantry of course, but you're burying your head in the sand if you refuse to admit that the atrocities committed by Tevinter magisters aren't responsible for the Andrastean taboos against mage rule or blood magic.

 

As for your second point...mage rule has been attempted twice in Thedas. Both times it ended in tyranny. Not exactly a good track record. And in any case I'm not saying that every mage is a potential tyrant. Just that its a fact that if given complete freedom the mages who are potential tyrants will always find a way to exploit their power to dominate others. Absolute freedom for mages will always end with something like Tevinter.

Got it mages evil mundane good and will never be corrupt. 

[Xilizhra]

Hold up. Mages aren't enslaved in Tevinter. At all. The majority are within their seven Circles or acting as Magisters.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider Ferelden tyrannical at all. Neither would I consider Nevarra as such either.

• Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
• Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.

Also, Vaughan and not doing anything about him as an example of Ferelden's governmental abuses. Nevarra, I know less about.

[thetinyevil]

Hold up. Mages aren't enslaved in Tevinter. At all. The majority are within their seven Circles or acting as Magisters.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider Ferelden tyrannical at all. Neither would I consider Nevarra as such either.

"Magisters do not hesitate to collar their own," Fenris

[MisterJB]

Wrong. It was the chantry that spread the hate. Sure Tevinter didn't help but it is the Chantry is the main culprit. Also Antiva and Orlais is just as bad as Tevinter, with corrupt government and slavery.

 

I can stand when people say that ALL mages WILL become magisters because their mages. That's like saying all men will be come rapist because their men.

Where is your evidence of Chantry spreading hatred? Do you have a sermon from a Mother?

I can find you a sermon from the very first Divine who diferentiated between blood mages and mages who respected Andraste's words.

The people who wanted to lynch Rys&Co didn't mention the Chantry, rather they spoke of grievances caused by mages such as one turning into a demon in the middle of the Market.

What exactly have we heard from the Chantry and Templars? "Magic is a blessing but also a curse...Demons will seek to possessed mages and should they suceed, they'll become instruments of chaos...the mages of Tevinter once enslaved the whole continent."

 

This isn't propaganda; these are facts! So, where is your evidence that the Chantry is spreading hatred rather than simply that common people hear and see what mages can do and, naturally, begin to wish they were gone?

 

[Xilizhra]

Where is your evidence of Chantry spreading hatred? Do you have a sermon from a Mother?

I can find you a sermon from the very first Divine who diferentiated between blood mages and mages who respected Andraste's words.

The people who wanted to lynch Rys&Co didn't mention the Chantry, rather they spoke of grievances caused by mages such as one turning into a demon in the middle of the Market.

What exactly have we heard from the Chantry and Templars? "Magic is a blessing but also a curse...Demons will seek to possessed mages and should they suceed, they'll become instruments of chaos...the mages of Tevinter once enslaved the whole continent."

 

This isn't propaganda; these are facts! So, where is your evidence that the Chantry is spreading hatred rather than simply that common people hear and see what mages can do and, naturally, begin to wish they were gone?

Keili in the mage origin wholly internalized everything she heard from the priests there about magic being inherently sinful, to the point where she wanted to be killed in the Annulment.

[Hellion Rex]

The people who wanted to lynch Rys&Co didn't mention the Chantry, rather they spoke of grievances caused by mages such as one turning into a demon in the middle of the Market.

Technicality. Those people who wanted to lynch Rhys' group were primarily reacting to the news of a mage's attempt to assassinate Justinia. The rest of your argument still stands.

“And what are we going to toast?” the man growled. “You mages trying to kill Her Holiness?”

[thetinyevil]

Where is your evidence of Chantry spreading hatred? Do you have a sermon from a Mother?

I can find you a sermon from the very first Divine who diferentiated between blood mages and mages who respected Andraste's words.

The people who wanted to lynch Rys&Co didn't mention the Chantry, rather they spoke of grievances caused by mages such as one turning into a demon in the middle of the Market.

What exactly have we heard from the Chantry and Templars? "Magic is a blessing but also a curse...Demons will seek to possessed mages and should they suceed, they'll become instruments of chaos...the mages of Tevinter once enslaved the whole continent."

 

This isn't propaganda; these are facts! So, where is your evidence that the Chantry is spreading hatred rather than simply that common people hear and see what mages can do and, naturally, begin to wish they were gone?

Your hero Lambert at the end of Asunder even says that the Chantry spread hate and fear for mages. 

[Han Shot First]

Got it mages evil mundane good and will never be corrupt. 

 

Strawman.

 

I'm going to requote a section of an earlier post of mine in this thread:

 

The dilemma is that the Mage problem seems to have no easy solution. If given complete freedom you eventually end up with something like Tevinter, where the mages rule like Sith Lords over their non-mage subjects. The alternative isn't pretty either. People are torn from their families and imprisoned (even if its a gilded cage) for no other crime except being cursed with magical ability. And the Templars, as we saw with Meredith and Kirkwall, sometimes forget that they also have a duty to protect mages.

 

I was fairly clear in stating that both the mage rule and the Circle system are flawed. There seems to be no perfect solution, and it falls to choosing between the lesser of two evils.

[MisterJB]

Your hero Lambert at the end of Asunder even says that the Chantry spread hate and fear for mages. 

"Feared and contained" for very good reasons is not the same as spreading blind hate.

Mages are dangerous, no way around that. To pretend otherwise would be to lie to and endager the people of Thedas.

[MisterJB]

Keili in the mage origin wholly internalized everything she heard from the priests there about magic being inherently sinful, to the point where she wanted to be killed in the Annulment.

Considering how she's the one suicidal mage in Ferelden and they all hear the same sermons, maybe the problem is with her.

[thetinyevil]

"Feared and contained" or very good reasons is not the same as spreading blind hate.

Mages are dangerous, no way around that. To pretend otherwise would be to lie to and endager the people of Thedas.

Like Xilizhra pointed out, look at Kaili. The mage learned to hate herself because of the priests and the chantry.

[MisterJB]

Technicality. Those people who wanted to lynch Rhys' group were primarily reacting to the news of a mage's attempt to assassinate Justinia. The rest of your argument still stands.

“And what are we going to toast?” the man growled. “You mages trying to kill Her Holiness?”

Which would still be hate caused by what mages did; in this case attempting to murder the Divine; rather than because they were taught to it by the Chantry.

[Xilizhra]

Considering how she's the one suicidal mage in Ferelden and they all hear the same sermons, maybe the problem is with her.

So either she's having auditory hallucinations that override the actual sermons, or she's just more sensitive to emotional abuse than many other people (and of course many reacted instead by lashing out in Broken Circle or trying to run away like Aneirin); the latter strikes me as more likely. And of course Anders mentions plenty of other suicides.

[Hellion Rex]

Like Xilizhra pointed out, look at Kaili. The mage learned to hate herself because of the priests and the chantry.

And yet we still have strong willed, extremely powerful mages that agree with the Circle/Chantry like Wynne did. And she certainly didn't hate herself.

[Hellion Rex]

Which would still be hate caused by what mages did; in this case attempting to murder the Divine; rather than because they were taught to it by the Chantry.

Lol, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just clarifying.

[Hellion Rex]

So either she's having auditory hallucinations that override the actual sermons, or she's just more sensitive to emotional abuse than many other people (and of course many reacted instead by lashing out in Broken Circle or trying to run away like Aneirin); the latter strikes me as more likely. And of course Anders mentions plenty of other suicides.

I honestly think it was the latter. Granted, I do believe there are some who do commit suicide, but I don't think it's as common as Anders made it out to be (the Gallows obviously excluded).

[Grieving Natashina]

And yet we still have strong willed, extremely powerful mages that agree with the Circle/Chantry like Wynne did. And she certainly didn't hate herself.

You know you're going to run right back into that tin foil with him, right?

[Xilizhra]

And yet we still have strong willed, extremely powerful mages that agree with the Circle/Chantry like Wynne did. And she certainly didn't hate herself.

"Strong-willed."

 

Like I said, some people are more sensitive to emotional abuse than others. Some find shelter in other things. But everyone from what I recall who has an opinion on what the Chantry teaches about mages at the Circle has had a bad one.

[thetinyevil]

And yet we still have strong willed, extremely powerful mages that agree with the Circle/Chantry like Wynne did. And she certainly didn't hate herself.

Not getting into this again.

Stockholm Syndrome.

[AresKeith]

And yet we still have strong willed, extremely powerful mages that agree with the Circle/Chantry like Wynne did. And she certainly didn't hate herself.

 

But she's brainwashed remember?   

[Xilizhra]

But she's brainwashed remember?   

If she was, it certainly clears up in a flash the instant the Chantry's endangered her son.

[thetinyevil]

I honestly think it was the latter. Granted, I do believe there are some who do commit suicide, but I don't think it's as common as Anders made it out to be (the Gallows obviously excluded).

Probably more common that you want to think. 

[MisterJB]

So either she's having auditory hallucinations that override the actual sermons, or she's just more sensitive to emotional abuse than many other people (and of course many reacted instead by lashing out in Broken Circle or trying to run away like Aneirin); the latter strikes me as more likely. And of course Anders mentions plenty of other suicides.

Just because someone's being oversensitive, that doesn't mean the person speaking is wrong or spreading hate.