25 réponses à ce sujet

[Xetykins]

Wasnt it only Loghain that was selling the elves? I dont recall any reference to Howe on the CE except he became the arl of denerim just before rescue the queen.

[Vapaa]

 

2) WRONG! You encounter Nathaniel Howe near the beginning of Awakening. If you're a Human Noble, you get some special dialogue where you two play the blame game about who hurt the other more. He says "You killed my father," you say "Your father killed my entire family you selfish bastard!", etc. And you can potentially go through a heart-warming arch where he recognizes how much his father hurt you and your family, you can choose to put aside your rightful against his father and befriend him anyway. The sins of his father don't have to be his to pay for.

 

Again, I would have liked city elf had an option to mention Howe's crimes against their family in-game. Nathaniel's mad to meet the Warden no matter what. If it's a Human Noble, it's "I know he killed your family, but still!" If it's a non-Human Noble, you get the same general "I know you were on different sides of the war, but still!" I was surprised and disappointed the game didn't give any option for the City Elf Warden say something like: "Um, he butchered my people / sold my family into slavery. I d*mn right have reason to hate him." Just something. Anything.

 

That's why he never lives an other day in my CE playthrough, seriously, after all his father did, he comes and whine at me ? Throat slit, job done.

 

Otherwise, good point, CE was a great origin, and this lack of acknowledgment was a bit of a bummer (at least we got to gut all those SOBs).

[luna1124]

Wasnt it only Loghain that was selling the elves? I dont recall any reference to Howe on the CE except he became the arl of denerim just before rescue the queen.

I think Anora mentions Howe and her father doing something in the alienage. But I may have read that during area transition loading.

[Corker]

I agree that the CE has a legit grudge against Howe that the game doesn't do much to recognize.  But you're conflating the purge and the quarantine.

 

The purge was a single event.  Maybe more than one day or night, but not more than several.  It left the Alienage a wreck, with many dead, including the entire orphanage, in which you can find pitiful barricades constructed out of beds and such, with piles of bones behind them.  (I don't know if the rage demon was already dwelling there, and it increased Howe's soldiers' savagery, or if their heinous crimes created the hole in the Veil that let it in.)

 

Immediately after the purge, nothing happens.

 

Some unspecific time later - but after the return of Loghain's army from Ostagar - a plague breaks out in the Alienage. The arl puts the place under quarantine, locking the gates.  It's not a purge or a massacre - the guards aren't killing anyone, the plague is - but it's cold-hearted and callous.  Some time after that, the regent beneficently sends in those foreign Tevinter healers to "help."

 

Arguably, placing the Alienage under quarantine wasn't the wrong thing to do.  Placing the Alienage under quarantine, and then making no provisions to supply it with food or other goods was terrible.  Placing the Alienage under quarantine, letting its populace starve, and then using their fear and desperation to sell them into slavery was monstrous.

[ShadowLordXII]

Because if the writers allowed for a real organic response then the City Elf would've murdered Howe in Eamon's estate. Just like Cousland would have and that would've been problematic for the overarching plot. Justified or not, murdering Howe in "seeming cold blood" without provocation would weaken your chances in the Landsmeet (as opposed to later where you could at least say, "He kidnapped the queen and tried to stop me from saving her")

[thats1evildude]

Keep in mind that Howe is confronted BEFORE the Warden gets to go to the Alienage. And, in truth, the City Elf didn't lose any loved ones to the purge, so his/her grudge against Howe isn't as personal as the Human Noble.

 

Still, you do get to say to Howe "So you're the one who butchered my kin?" and later express that you were hoping to run into him again. It would have been nice to see a "You'll pay for your crimes against the elves" line when confronting him, but it's just one of many little bits of dialogue I wish were in the game that aren't.

[theskymoves]

Keep in mind that Howe is confronted BEFORE the Warden gets to go to the Alienage. And, in truth, the City Elf didn't lose any loved ones to the purge, so his/her grudge against Howe isn't as personal as the Human Noble.

 

Still, you do get to say to Howe "So you're the one who butchered my kin?" and later express that you were hoping to run into him again. It would have been nice to see a "You'll pay for your crimes against the elves" line when confronting him, but it's just one of many little bits of dialogue I wish were in the game that aren't.

 

IMO, finding Papa Cyrion in a cage, waiting to be shipped out as a slave is really grudge-worthy and very personal. And my Tabris is very fond of Valendrian... losing him to the slavers is like losing family. (Kallian was sorry she couldn't kill Howe again after seeing what had happened in the Alienage. *stabbity stab stab stab*)

[BronzTrooper]

I completely agree, OP.  It is ridiculous that you don't get any additional dialogue when confronting Howe in his estate when playing as a CE.  It's also ridiculous that there's no mention of the orphanage after everything is said and done in the alienage.  Especially when in a romance.  

[TEWR]

Wasnt it only Loghain that was selling the elves? I dont recall any reference to Howe on the CE except he became the arl of denerim just before rescue the queen.

 

Loghain authorized it because the Civil War the Bannorn started ended up draining the coffers, plus Howe was embezzling. Judging from Howe's attitude towards Elves in sharp contrast to Loghain's (where he thinks Elves can be great fighters if they want to be and if recruited says he wanted to arm the rest of the Elves after the war chest was filled and the main army resupplied) it's very likely Howe was the one who floated the idea.

 

After all, Loghain's the Regent, but Howe's the one who has control over Denerim. So Howe probably would have had to go to Loghain for authorization and Loghain, seeing how badly the state of the treasury was and how he doesn't have the Circle on his side sadly (which would've helped the war chest), gives his authorization.

 

@Faerunner: I agree. Personally, the narrative tries to cater to Human Noble as the default. What's more, if you play as a Dwarf Noble the entire Dwarven arc is a narrative that tries to make you kiss Bhelen's ass when if one reviews the actual history and culture of Orzammar (as I have done) one can see that the DN doesn't need either candidate to reclaim their name as an Aeducan and in fact could've taken the throne if they wished.

 

Hell, the fact that Branka says "Are you here for a Paragon's support for yourself?" is enough. A Paragon's support is equal to the law (though through some maneuvering a DN could make a strong case for them to be the monarch before going in search of Branka.

[TEWR]

The game takes place over several months at least, close to a year, if not a year. Even if you show up to Denerim first thing, you find the gates are locked for a purge and remain so for the rest of the game, until Eamon calls the Landsmeet. By then, supposedly most of the year has gone by, as the Landsmeet is the last major event before the final battle and can't take place longer than a week.

 

The game does in fact take place over the course of one year. And the first thing Howe did upon coming to Denerim was lead the Purge. Bear in mind he went to Denerim sometime around Ostagar or immediately after, as he ended up working his way into being Loghain's poisonous bastard of an "advisor".

 

 

I think the game implies Howe's latest purge finally tore the already weakened Veil, which allowed the demon to get through. Veil tears tend to occur where there's been an excessive amount of bloodshed multiple times in one location, like the Bracian Forest (which has seen many heinous, bloody battles in the past), the Blackmarsh (where what's-her-face committed many atrocities), and of course most Circles (thanks to the Templars' "sneeze wrong and we kill" policy of dealing with mages). Going through the Fade in Blackmarsh in Awakening seems to imply that demons gather around weakened points in the Veil and wait for it to tear so they can go through. Howe provided just that.

 

Correct. The damage from the Purge was extensive. Perhaps worse so then past Purges (and IIRC, Denerim's Alienage has had Purges a fair bit). The chaos ended up tearing the Veil. My guess? Rage Demons (and others) took advantage of the Veil tear and ended up slaughtering both sides in the Orphanage, while also affecting anything else (the crazed Mabari).

 

Interestingly, there are Abominations present. Which means that perhaps there were some Elven Mages as well in the Alienage trying to help defend the Orphanage. Who can say what happened then? Perhaps they used blood magic and tried to summon demons, only to fail. Perhaps the extensive bloodshed was the final straw. Perhaps they used blood magic, but didn't summon demons, only for that to be the final straw.

 

Certainly, the fact that Ser Otto and a Templar Warden can sense the disturbance in the Force Veil is indicative of the problem itself. Thankfully, when all is said and done, the Veil is stronger I believe.

 

As an aside, there's really nothing to suggest the plague is even a Blight sickness. The Blight tends to make people go mad with pain, grow delirious, starve no matter how much they eat, get blotched skin, and end up seeking out the Darkspawn. Given the shitty conditions of the Alienage, I'd say it's just a regular old plague.

 

Still bad, but treatable. And I imagine the Tevinters were in fact treating the sick so as to keep up their cover. They then send the sick out because... well... a sick slave is liable to die on the journey and they take the healthier ones who want a "preventative measure" as their slaves. In fact, this is precisely the type of stunt they try to pull on the Warden IIRC if of Elven origin.

 

...though I think they also say "Damn man! You look kinda sick! Wouldn't you want to come in here and get treated?"

 

Also, one of the Elves that was taken captive says there wasn't a serious plague IIRC. Or he just said "None of us are sick." because I remember some Elves coughing up a lung around the Alienage.

[TEWR]

Like you said, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to finagle support for yourself before going into the Deep Roads (maybe gather proof that you were set up or framed for the crime you were originally exiled for), and then come back with a Paragon's crown.

 

For me, and this is what my Dwarf Noble Xanthos Aeducan did, it comes down to this (which I think would only be possible if you didn't kill Trian).

 

The Provings are being held, in Endrin's honor, to decide who among the candidates is worthy of the throne. But the Warden need not enter under anyone's banner. He can just enter to fight. By extension, the Dwarf Noble could fight under their own banner. The Provings exist to show who among the Dwarves has the Ancestors' favor... and some of the contestants seem to think you're fighting under Harrowmont's banner by default. But in reality, upon winning you could reveal yourself and say (as Xanthos did)

 

"Look upon this sight, citizens of Orzammar! Who here has defeated the contestants and won the favor of the Ancestors?! I have! Me, the exiled child of Endrin Aeducan! And would you dare say that the Ancestors' wisdom is less then your own?! No, you would not! So I ask you this, who is truly worthy of the throne?!"

 

This would cast some doubt into the minds of the citizens and make some of them reconsider their support. Theoretically, it'd also be enough to get the attention of Harrowmont. Traditionalist that he is, he might at least relent for an innocent Warden and garner support for the Warden while keeping Bhelen from taking the throne.

 

Cue the DN going to rid Orzammar of the Carta and obtaining proof that Bhelen hired casteless thugs to kill Trian. By obtaining this proof, it exonerates the DN of the crime he was framed for by Bhelen and thus erodes much of his support. To say nothing of talking with House Helmi and House Dace, particularly since the DN was set up for an arranged marriage with Nerav Helmi. House Helmi is very influential and both Harrowmont and Bhelen are seeking their support. Trian was even intent on keeping the ties between the houses strong, to say nothing of how through some maneuvering the two Houses helped each other out.

 

Plus, when you go to meet Branka and get the crown from either her or Caridin, they tell you to give it to whomever you deem worthy. Which is pretty damn clear that it's an open-ended thing and the DN could say "Me!".

 

I discussed it at one time in this thread in the past, if you wanna read more and see some of the lore I used to support my argument.

[DeinonSlayer]

For me, I've gotta say I was a bit miffed when we faced off with Caladrius and Wynne was acting like I'd take his blood magic offer seriously. Come on. That's the PC's father he's offering to sacrifice over there. Could we skip past Wynne's nattering for once and get to the part where I slit that fat ****'s throat?

I found myself... surprisingly invested in the RP for that Warden. Would've liked to take the time to really go to work on Vaughan; something involving an anal probe with a red-hot poker from the fireplace would have done nicely. Would've liked to actually take the time to share that wine with Shianni too.

[TEWR]

Hell, that same Helmi girl I mentioned says that many don't believe the DN was responsible for Trian's death, which is an echo of what Gorim said in the origin story of how many nobles were suspicious of Bhelen's sudden rise to power.

 

(though don't get me started on how the origin story for Dwarf Nobles was problematic as well).

 

Really, it's like Bioware just doesn't think these things through. They make the lore, but fail to see how it intersects and could create a far more interesting world.

[Jacksper]

Everyone knows about the Human Noble's grudge against Howe since he betrayed and slaughtered your family in the origin, then usurped them with the protection of the new regent Loghain after Ostagar. This creates a thrilling revenge story where you're hunted by him and his political shield through most of the game, don't get to encounter him till near the end, track him in his mansion, give your "My name is Inigo Montoya" speech, then kill that son of a b*tch in cold blood.

 

And since having a personal connection to Howe is the most meaningful connection to a villain in the game ([/sarcasm]), that means the Human Noble is the best one, right?

 

 

Thing is, the City Elf has reason to hate Howe too. Regardless of whether or not you roll as a City Elf, the narrative implies the origin happened regardless. Vaughan crashed the wedding, kidnapped the women, and incited a riot. Since Duncan wasn't there to lend the men weapons, the "rescue party" that Soris was a part of failed and were thrown in the dungeon, since you find him there if you aren't a City Elf. Howe then steps in and uses the "riot" and the "death" of Vaughan (even if he's alive) as an excuse to lead a purge.

 

The thing that many people forget is that a purge is a legal massacre. The guards literally lock the gates so the elves inside can't escape, and butcher (and maybe burn?) countless people inside. All perfectly legal to keep those uppity elves in their place.

 

And he doesn't do it because the people were legitimately out of control. He admits as such when the City Elf first meets him, when the Warden and Eamon are confronted by Loghain, Cauthrien, and Howe right after he calls the Landsmeet. Earlier in the game, the city elf can learn of the purge by entering Denerim and trying to go home, but you learn from the guard that the alienage gates are locked until the purge is over, "no one gets in or out," "on the order of the new Arl of Denerim."

 

When Loghain, Cauthrien and Howe approach you, you have the option of recognizing Howe when he's introduced . "So you're the one that's been slaughtering my people." His response? Some smug, slimey words to the effect of, "When animals bite at their human masters, it's prudent to cull the herd." Rude responses are generally best in this situation. Cauthrien then tells you to shush and the conversation continues like you never spoke up. Then you don't encounter Howe again till the dungeon.

 

1) I often hear Human Noble fans complain that they didn't get a longer speech or a more satisfying cutscene. To be honest? At least you got something. When a City Elf confronts Howe in his dungeon, you have no unique dialogue. You just get the same general lines as any other non-Human Noble before killing him. For someone who was PISSED that he led a for legal massacre against her people, I wanted to least get out a "This is for the alienage!" or something before killing him. Would it have really ruined BioWare to include one CE-specific line before you gut him?

 

I'm also kind of bitter that CE Warden don't learn of Howe's dealings in slave-trading until after he's dead. Fair enough, since he's gone and there's no option to talk about him after he's dead, right?

 

2) WRONG! You encounter Nathaniel Howe near the beginning of Awakening. If you're a Human Noble, you get some special dialogue where you two play the blame game about who hurt the other more. He says "You killed my father," you say "Your father killed my entire family you selfish bastard!", etc. And you can potentially go through a heart-warming arch where he recognizes how much his father hurt you and your family, you can choose to put aside your rightful against his father and befriend him anyway. The sins of his father don't have to be his to pay for.

 

Again, I would have liked city elf had an option to mention Howe's crimes against their family in-game. Nathaniel's mad to meet the Warden no matter what. If it's a Human Noble, it's "I know he killed your family, but still!" If it's a non-Human Noble, you get the same general "I know you were on different sides of the war, but still!" I was surprised and disappointed the game didn't give any option for the City Elf Warden say something like: "Um, he butchered my people / sold my family into slavery. I d*mn right have reason to hate him." Just something. Anything.

 

I just don't understand. The game gave a very good reason for the City Elf to hate Rendon Howe. Some can argue "not as good as the human noble," but a legal massacre over several months (at least) that left the survivors vulnerable to a plague, demon infestation, and slave-trading is nothing to sneeze at. And apart from correctly identifying him as the one that slaughtered your people when you first meet him, the game just acts like you're as detached about him as any other non-HN Warden from then on out.

 

I don't know.

 

All right, story time. What lines about some aspect of the game that means a lot to you but has no in-game acknowledgement still bother you?

 

While all of this is true.  There is one thing that you forget, is that Human Nobles ONLY seem to have this as their special thing throughout the remainder of the game.  The City Elf can become a Bann, and every single Origin can become Teryn of (Insert name it starts with a G here).  If you say make Howe's family pay for their crimes against the Couslands the King gives the Arling to the Grey Wardens  (Which btw is BS...  Especially if you made up a story where your character only became a Grey Warden because it had to be done, or he was conscripted against his will).  So basically the HN is a Warden for life, and revenge is his only perk.  The City Elf can at least have a life (Unique life) outside of being the Hero of Ferelden, and the Leader of the Grey in Ferelden.(at least for a little while)...

[TEWR]

don't some characters say that the grief of losing you drove him into his early grave?

 

They do. Depending on how late the quest is done, Endrin passed away 3 weeks prior to the Warden's arrival at the gates of Orzammar (so he lived for either only a few weeks after Ostagar up to several months later). IIRC, Gherlen's Pass says that it's about a two week journey up the mountain?

 

Interestingly, one must note that Gherlen the Blood-Risen is a tale told by Rica towards the Dwarf Commoner. He was a casteless surfacer who returned to Orzammar and took the throne.

 

So you can see where I'm going with that.

 

Anyway, many people say that he died of grief. Harrowmont tells you that the tragedy of losing two sons has struck him hard and he is now in his bed before you're exiled to the Deep Roads. If you ask Bhelen for the truth, he tells you that he died of a broken heart. The grief of it all led to depression, which seemed to make him frail and sick. And death came for him.

 

Interestingly, a kingkiller poison was imported into Orzammar and mistakenly given to a noblewoman (and by the Paragons, her family's support would've been great for healing her, even though nothing happens once you do heal her in-game). My guess? Bhelen was planning on using it on Endrin to speed him along to his death, but I have no proof of such.

[Jedimaster88]

 

Interestingly, a kingkiller poison was imported into Orzammar and mistakenly given to a noblewoman (and by the Paragons, her family's support would've been great for healing her, even though nothing happens once you do heal her in-game). My guess? Bhelen was planning on using it on Endrin to speed him along to his death, but I have no proof of such.

 

While there is no actual proof of it, I wouldnt be surprised at all if Bhelen did poison his father. I dont remember that one dwarf woman´s name who you can talk to when you enter Orzamar but she mentions how some people wonder if Endrin died of natural reasons or if Bhelen helped him with that.

[TEWR]

I think it was Bhelen's intent to poison Endrin but the poison was given to the wrong person (the woman I mentioned). As for the Dwarf you're thinking of who thinks Bhelen helped him along, it's the Helmi girl I mentioned IIRC.

[Lady Artifice]

While all of this is true.  There is one thing that you forget, is that Human Nobles ONLY seem to have this as their special thing throughout the remainder of the game.  The City Elf can become a Bann, and every single Origin can become Teryn of (Insert name it starts with a G here).  If you say make Howe's family pay for their crimes against the Couslands the King gives the Arling to the Grey Wardens  (Which btw is BS...  Especially if you made up a story where your character only became a Grey Warden because it had to be done, or he was conscripted against his will).  So basically the HN is a Warden for life, and revenge is his only perk.  The City Elf can at least have a life (Unique life) outside of being the Hero of Ferelden, and the Leader of the Grey in Ferelden.(at least for a little while)...

 

 

Except for how the HN can become co-ruler of a country...

[WarriorOfLight999]

I agree, OP. There should have been more acknowledgement between the PC and Howe. For the developers part, I think they really intended for Vaughan/Caladrius to be your personal nemesis, and Howe for the Couslands. I'm talking strictly in terms of storybuilding here.

 

I always headcannon that all six origins survive, and that Cousland and Tabris slaughter Howes men and the slavers in the alienage. An elf is made Bann of the Alienage, with a sympathetic Queen as a powerful ally, who is currently making Howe's colluders and any remaining slavers pay dearly for their crimes.