39 réponses à ce sujet

[thetinyevil]

In Asunder Justinia seems to be making moves to help the mages, but we learn in Masked Empire that this is only because she made a deal with Empress Celene.Which also means that the Divine is directly responsible for what happened to the elves of the Halamshiral alienage.

 

So do you think it was an assassination attempt by an outside party or did Divine Justinia set it up herself? She is a trained bard and knows "The Game" very well.Before the deal she struck with Celene she was happy to pull an Elthina and sit on her hands and not do anything.

 

If Divine Justinia did set it, why would she do it?

[Xilizhra]

The assassination could well have been set up by Lambert, but I find it somewhat unlikely that Justinia pulled it on herself; it'd be a bit too risky, for one thing.

[TK514]

False. Justina initially agreed in Chapter 1 of TME to address the Mage issue at a ball in her honor, well before the elves became an issue.

[Mistic]

If she ends up being the Big Bad of DA:I, then yes, Justinia setting up the assassination makes sense. If she's not, she was a victim of the Big Bad's plan.

[Augustei]

I always thought the attack was orchestrated by Chantry/Templar radicals who didn't like her planned progressive reforms. Possibly Lambert or one/some of the Grand Clerics.
I don't see how Justinia could be the big bad in DA:I, that'd be something completely out of left field imo, though perhaps a potential enemy to players who agree with Lamberts conservative faction.
 

[thetinyevil]

False. Justina initially agreed in Chapter 1 of TME to address the Mage issue at a ball in her honor, well before the elves became an issue.

Nope. She did not agree to anything. Leliana had to deliver the message, which Celene would had to wait three weeks to a month for a response, while she thought it over.

[thetinyevil]

I always thought the attack was orchestrated by Chantry/Templar radicals who didn't like her planned progressive reforms. Possibly Lambert or one/some of the Grand Clerics.
I don't see how Justinia could be the big bad in DA:I, that'd be something completely out of left field imo, though perhaps a potential enemy to players who agree with Lamberts conservative faction.
 

I don't think she is going to be the big bad of DA:I since it has been implied that she dies at the meeting between mages and the Chantry. 

[thetinyevil]

The assassination could well have been set up by Lambert, but I find it somewhat unlikely that Justinia pulled it on herself; it'd be a bit too risky, for one thing.

Big risks big rewards.

[thetinyevil]

I have a rule of thumb for the DA universe, don't trust anyone in power.

[Mistic]

Nope. She did not agree to anything. Leliana had to deliver the message, which Celene would had to wait three weeks to a month for a response, while she thought it over.

 

"You asked for her support calming the templars and the mages."

"Indeed." Celene nodded. "And will she give that support?"

Leliana let out a breath. "She will," she said, nodding slowly, "but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control."

 

That was chapter chapter 5. Leliana is one of Justinia's most trusted servants. She presents herself to Celene in chapter 1 with the words "I am her voice in this regard". So, unless you are saying that Leliana is lying in Justinia's name through all the book, that was an agreement.

 

I don't think she is going to be the big bad of DA:I since it has been implied that she dies at the meeting between mages and the Chantry. 

 

The idea is that she might fake her death in that event. Then, decisions that were initially thought as 'good intention, bad execution' would be revealed as 'bad intention, flawless execution'.

 

"So there are problems in Kirkwall? No, no, don't send the Seekers, we need more chaos."

"So the Empress is worried about the mage-templar issue? Oh, my, of course I will speak in favour of peace during that ball in my honour. It's a shame there will be an "unexpected" incident that will derail it."

"And talking about the Empress, she's dangerous. Let's push her in the right direction, that is, to fall into Gaspard's trap, a trap so evident that even an elven servant can see it. Civil war in Orlais is also welcome."

"However, the assassination attempt may lead to me sooner or later. So let's put Lambert in charge of the investigations. There are already so many problems in the White Spire that the grumpy ex Tevinter Templar will start a war before doing his job."

"And now that wars are starting everywhere, I just need a lot of people in a place high in lyrium to open the biggest veil tear the world has ever seen. And who is better than the Divine to choose the place for a peace summit between some of the most influential and powerful people in southern Thedas? The Temple of the Sacred Ashes sounds promising..."

"Well, faking my death was a master stroke. The moderates in the mages and templars are all dead, and now the Chantry is headless. Chaos everywhere! Now I can do what I must without caring about... about... What the HELL is that story about a survivor?!"

 

It's a very far-fetched guess, especially since it's been hinted that the Inquisition was Justinia's Plan B.

[thetinyevil]

"You asked for her support calming the templars and the mages."

"Indeed." Celene nodded. "And will she give that support?"

Leliana let out a breath. "She will," she said, nodding slowly, "but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control."

 

That was chapter chapter 5. Leliana is one of Justinia's most trusted servants. She presents herself to Celene in chapter 1 with the words "I am her voice in this regard". So, unless you are saying that Leliana is lying in Justinia's name through all the book, that was an agreement.

 

 

The idea is that she might fake her death in that event. Then, decisions that were initially thought as 'good intention, bad execution' would be revealed as 'bad intention, flawless execution'.

 

"So there are problems in Kirkwall? No, no, don't send the Seekers, we need more chaos."

"So the Empress is worried about the mage-templar issue? Oh, my, of course I will speak in favour of peace during that ball in my honour. It's a shame there will be an "unexpected" incident that will derail it."

"And talking about the Empress, she's dangerous. Let's push her in the right direction, that is, to fall into Gaspard's trap, a trap so evident that even an elven servant can see it. Civil war in Orlais is also welcome."

"However, the assassination attempt may lead to me sooner or later. So let's put Lambert in charge of the investigations. There are already so many problems in the White Spire that the grumpy ex Tevinter Templar will start a war before doing his job."

"And now that wars are starting everywhere, I just need a lot of people in a place high in lyrium to open the biggest veil tear the world has ever seen. And who is better than the Divine to choose the place for a peace summit between some of the most influential and powerful people in southern Thedas? The Temple of the Sacred Ashes sounds promising..."

"Well, faking my death was a master stroke. The moderates in the mages and templars are all dead, and now the Chantry is headless. Chaos everywhere! Now I can do what I must without caring about... about... What the HELL is that story about a survivor?!"

 

It's a very far-fetched guess, especially since it's been hinted that the Inquisition was Justinia's Plan B.

but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control. This seems to be her saying she will remove her support if the elves are not taken care of i.e wipe out.

[Augustei]

I have a rule of thumb for the DA universe, don't trust anyone in power.

"Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done since you climbed off your horse."

 

 

The idea is that she might fake her death in that event. Then, decisions that were initially thought as 'good intention, bad execution' would be revealed as 'bad intention, flawless execution'.

 

"So there are problems in Kirkwall? No, no, don't send the Seekers, we need more chaos."

"So the Empress is worried about the mage-templar issue? Oh, my, of course I will speak in favour of peace during that ball in my honour. It's a shame there will be an "unexpected" incident that will derail it."

"And talking about the Empress, she's dangerous. Let's push her in the right direction, that is, to fall into Gaspard's trap, a trap so evident that even an elven servant can see it. Civil war in Orlais is also welcome."

"However, the assassination attempt may lead to me sooner or later. So let's put Lambert in charge of the investigations. There are already so many problems in the White Spire that the grumpy ex Tevinter Templar will start a war before doing his job."

"And now that wars are starting everywhere, I just need a lot of people in a place high in lyrium to open the biggest veil tear the world has ever seen. And who is better than the Divine to choose the place for a peace summit between some of the most influential and powerful people in southern Thedas? The Temple of the Sacred Ashes sounds promising..."

"Well, faking my death was a master stroke. The moderates in the mages and templars are all dead, and now the Chantry is headless. Chaos everywhere! Now I can do what I must without caring about... about... What the HELL is that story about a survivor?!"

 

It's a very far-fetched guess, especially since it's been hinted that the Inquisition was Justinia's Plan B.

If thats the plot thats some shocking writing right there, thats potentially worse than Lyrium crazed Meredith trying to kill Hawke with magic golems.

[Nohvarr]

but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control. This seems to be her saying she will remove her support if the elves are not taken care of i.e wipe out.

You're stretching. Asking the ruler of Orlais to end the conflict occuring with the Elves, who are city elves and thus also Andrastian, is reasonable. NOTHING in the Divines answer implies she wants the elves killed. Since the Divine is also responsible for trying to help the mages I think we can say she was seeking a reasonable solution to the elven problem. The Empress of Orlais was simply too blind and impaitent to wait for the 'peaceful' solution to work.

[thetinyevil]

You're stretching. Asking the ruler of Orlais to end the conflict occuring with the Elves, who are city elves and thus also Andrastian, is reasonable. NOTHING in the Divines answer implies she wants the elves killed. Since the Divine is also responsible for trying to help the mages I think we can say she was seeking a reasonable solution to the elven problem. The Empress of Orlais was simply too blind and impaitent to wait for the 'peaceful' solution to work.

Not really since the elves are still being punished for the "crimes" of the Dales, not helping Orlais. So purging an alienage wouldn't be a big deal to the Divine. Look at how they Chantry treats the elves.

[thetinyevil]

Why go through all this trouble to create a conspiracy, when it could have easily been in Asunder. It's a self-contained story. I'd take it's plot elements at face value. Why make us wait until DAI to get the true meaning of the Asunder events. Not everyone even reads these books.

 

There's probably nothing else to learn about that particular story. Some guy from the libertarian wing got out and tried to create a scene. I think it was only meant to illustrate the high tensions that the world was going through since Kirkwall fell.

Masked Empire and Asunder are supposed to be taking place about the same time. 

 

But why would there be only one mage? Why not several mages? How did he know what the ball was about? Though the question I always ask is how did he get the mask? 

[X Equestris]

Not really since the elves are still being punished for the "crimes" of the Dales, not helping Orlais. So purging an alienage wouldn't be a big deal to the Divine. Look at how they Chantry treats the elves.

No, Justinia wants Celene to put her house in order before lecturing the Chantry on how to fix its problems. Recall that Celene would have resolved the elf situation with an assassination, but Gaspard's political machinations caused her to alter her plans, and lead an army against the rebels. It's not anything personal against the elves; any feudal ruler would act the same way to put down a rebellion, no matter who they are.

[MisterJB]

And what could she possibly accomplish with it?

"I want to introduce reforms into the Circle system which is why I'll have a blood mage interrupt my speech with an assassination attempt so I'll remind the most powerful nobles in Orlais of just how dangerous mages are."

[thetinyevil]

That's a fair question. I wondered that myself.. who his other conspirators were. I wouldn't be surprised if Adrian was part of it all along actually. Considering how much scheming she does in the end.

I wouldn't be surprised if we found out she had a hand in it either. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

And what could she possibly accomplish with it?

"I want to introduce reforms into the Circle system which is why I'll have a blood mage interrupt my speech with an assassination attempt so I'll remind the most powerful nobles in Orlais of just how dangerous mages are."

You assume that reforms were her true goal not just something she claim was her goal.

[Deebo305]

Quite honestly I think the attack was set up by the Libertarians in the Circle. Sure the Templars weren't the biggest fan of Justinia's policies but they didn't outright rebel until Lambert got there

Hell just look what Adrian did at the end that nearly killed every mage in the room for her "revolution"

[Gervaise]

I think it more likely that Gaspard set up the assassination attempt on the Divine.   He is well in with Lord & Lady Montsimmard who have a mage daughter whom they managed to keep out of the Circle but at the same time keep in with the Circle in Montsimmard.   I would think this suggests they have influence among the Templars as well, which may well run to the White Spire.   That Templar Arnaud who stabbed Rhys seems to be the sort who would be willing to get involved in a plot if it meant removing an apparently mage sympathetic Divine.   Evangeline realised that it is highly unlikely the mage managed to get out of the White Spire on his own.   This is not Kirkwall which leaked mages like a sieve.    No one appeared to know about the underground way into the White Spire until Cole showed them.    Even if Cole had shown the mage the way out, there was still the problem of how to get him into the palace.   Someone loaned him a mask - it was never stated whose livery he wore, which is odd considering that every noble has their own colour and design which their servants follow as well.   However, I doubt he could have just walked in off the street, particularly if he didn't have a mask that was well known to the palace guards.   He would have to have been smuggled past them as part of a noble's entourage.   

 

It is a bit of a stretch to include Lambert in the plot since he only turned up after the event.   If he had been involved I think he would have ensured that the Templar guarding the Divine had orders not to intervene until too late.   However, I have to admit his investigation into the event was not particularly thorough considering he only looked at the White Spire end of things.    Possibly he would have delved a bit further but decided against it after Wynne shows up with orders from the Divine, so he concentrated on scuppering her plans rather than trying to find out who wanted to kill her.  

 

As for the elves bit, I do think the Divine was out of order forcing the issue in the way she did.   However Celene was also foolish in allowing herself to be manipulated as she was.   She had agreed to a solution with Briala and should have stuck with it but if she was intending burning the elven slums to the ground and killing the rebels anyway, then she should never have left Val Royeaux but entrusted it to a loyal general.   What puzzled me is how Briala had been gone 3-4 days before Celene even set out and yet she arrives only a few hours after Briala does.   What in the hell was Briala doing that took her so long?

[azarhal]

 

It's a very far-fetched guess, especially since it's been hinted that the Inquisition was Justinia's Plan B.

 

I don't think it's far-fetched.

 

If Justinia is the "big bad" or working for him/her/it, every plans made in the case of a no-agreement results at the Peace Conference were just talk, they were never intended to happen.

 

The only reason why the Inquisition exist is because Cassandra is preemptive about recruiting for it (she starts while she is in Kirkwall). If Cassandra haven't started then, their would have been no army at ground zero ready to take action and starting to recruit at that moment would have been a nightmare with all the chaos...