35 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

This is something that's been bugging me for a little while now. I read a lot growing up and I admit this is something that never even occurred to me was a problem for people until I got older that people base their opinions on a story based on the type of protagonist(s) to the point where I'll see entire stories get written off because of it without any regards to the quality of the writing or themes.

 

One of my favorite type of stories is the coming of age story which typically deals with younger people dealing with mature issues, and within those types of stories my overall favorite has always been To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. The story lets us see through the eyes of Scout who is quite young at the time (6-8 years old) as she watches an innocent man have his life destroyed and persecuted because the color of his skin. It show's how much ignorance, upbringing and perception play into being prejudice against others by showing the events that unfold through the eyes of children who have not yet been socially conditioned. There's a moment in the book that always stuck with me about how certain Jem is at one point that Atticus would win the trial without fully realizing that the cards where already stacked against them, regardless of whether they were right or wrong. Well Atticus is certainly the true hero of the story, I felt the focus of the story through a child's eyes added a lot to the story and the themes presented and was wonderfully executed. It would be a grave mistake to write the story off because the focus is through the eyes of a little girl.

 

It's an issue that seems to get brought up more then I feel it should, particularly with anime and games and I get especially frustrated when writers cater to that. I keep reading about how publishers have to cater to older white males (which I am) in order to make sales. Apparently it's big enough of a thing that even having a male character on the front of a box cover as apposed to a female will effect sales, which to me seems absolutely absurd and the mere fact that it's an issue shows me just how much the medium (and many of the people playing the games) still has to grow as a whole.

 

In the case of Anime I get that Japan oversexualizes children much more then we do, but that doesn't mean the standards are true across the board, and it seems to me that the people that feel this is a problem are only making it worse by writing off the stories that actually try and make well thought out characters by applying some obscure standard to any story focusing on children (admittedly I only hear this complaint in regards to young girls) without any regard to the context behind why the story is being told through their eyes.

 

I like how a story can challenge me to see beyond my own perception of a situation through the eyes of someone who initially appears to be completely different from me. I've found that there is not one defining factor to determine how much I can sympathize with a character or understand why they feel the way they do. A well written story is one that can take a character I initially don't understand at all and show me just how alike we are once you get passed appearances and initial impressions. Is it fair to write off a story because of one tiny aspect of a character without any regards to context or quality? I would like to think that most people on this site are mature enough to look passed such trivial things (mainly because I find Bioware is one of the better companies in regards to this) but honestly I don't know and it's something I never even really thought about much until the last few years. Now I'm finding it's become one of my larger frustrations when talking with some people on the internet.

 

I'm wondering what other peoples opinions are on the topic and whether other people are bothered by this as much as I am?  And thank you in advance anyone who took the time to read this.

 

P.S. Sorry for any derpiness in my writing

[Orian Tabris]

Immersion.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm wondering what other peoples opinions are on the topic and whether other people are bothered by this as much as I am?

Nah. Not really.

Sorry.

[Isichar]

Nah. Not really.

Sorry.

 

That's fine.

 

I just think it holds the medium back when every story has to be based around the same generic kind of main characters. I personally like to be challenged by a story but I get that others don't feel the same way.

[Dominus]

Well, I can only say what personally motivates me. On one hand, it's easier to feel immersed with Create-Your-Own-Character customization and sculpt the character you'd like to roleplay as or otherwise feel immersed in. On the other hand, exploring less familiar experiences can be a breath of fresh air. inb4namelessone

It isn't something I think a great deal of when picking a game, I'm more focused around character personality than my/their body types.

A well written story is one that can take a character I initially don't understand at all and show me just how alike we are once you get passed appearances and initial impressions.

Bingo.

[Napoleonicus]

Well, it certainly is easier to like a book/movie/game when you can actually relate to the protagonist in some way. If you're not a voracious bibliophile and find reading to be a chore to begin with, that is doubly important. To some people, that is something that matters more than to others. I know for example that I would have a hard time reading a book where the central character is a preachy old white holier than thou catholic priest, because he stands for values that I am diametrically opposed to, and by no means am I very picky in the range of things I read.

[Fast Jimmy]

That's fine.
 
I just think it holds the medium back when every story has to be based around the same generic kind of main characters. I personally like to be challenged by a story but I get that others don't feel the same way.

My flip side of that is the possibility of a story being held back because a writer envisioned a story one way and would second guess their narrative because of the race/gender/ethnicity of the characters they chose.

Your example of To Kill a Mocking Bird is a good one, but I honestly don't know if there is a shortage of stories (especially in video games... or RPGs...) that ignore the "coming of age" narrative. Heck, that could be half of the JRPGs from the 90's.

[Isichar]

My flip side of that is the possibility of a story being held back because a writer envisioned a story one way and would second guess their narrative because of the race/gender/ethnicity of the characters they chose.

Your example of To Kill a Mocking Bird is a good one, but I honestly don't know if there is a shortage of stories (especially in video games... or RPGs...) that ignore the "coming of age" narrative. Heck, that could be half of the JRPGs from the 90's.

 

My entire point is that often the context of why the story is focused on a type of character is completely ignored. Yes in some stories the focus on children can be absurd. I watched an anime recently that dealt with a young girl who was a weapons expert and I couldn't ignore how unrealistic it was. But instead of actually discussing whether or not it is appropriate people will often go: "Oh it has little girls? byeeeee" which I'm sorry to say is a weak standard.

 

Edit: I meant to type unrealistic* not realistic *derp*

[Fast Jimmy]

My entire point is that often the context of why the story is focused on a type of character is completely ignored. Yes in some stories the focus on children can be absurd. I watched an anime recently that dealt with a young girl who was a weapons expert and I couldn't ignore how realistic it was. But instead of actually discussing whether or not it is appropriate people will often go: "Oh it has little girls? byeeeee" which I'm sorry to say is a weak standard.

Fair enough.

By that same token, would it be a weak standard if a female sees a video game and sees a dudebro on the cover and says "male main character? Pass..." without researching it?

[Isichar]

Well, I can only say what personally motivates me. On one hand, it's easier to feel immersed with Create-Your-Own-Character customization and sculpt the character you'd like to roleplay as or otherwise feel immersed in. On the other hand, exploring less familiar experiences can be a breath of fresh air. inb4namelessone

It isn't something I think a great deal of when picking a game, I'm more focused around character personality than my/their body types.

 

I see what your saying here. Being able to relate to the characters is great, and the more we can relate the more realistically we can take the story. With stories that let you make your own make character it makes sense for people to design characters that are as similar to themselves because that's what they understand. But to what extent and what areas must we relate to characters? It seems silly that there is any 1 defining factor as to whether or not we can relate or not. I've admittedly had female characters (young ones too) that I found I could relate to better then some of the characters that are more aimed at my demographic and it has nothing to do with any 1 particular factor.

[Isichar]

Fair enough.

By that same token, would it be a weak standard if a female sees a video game and sees a dudebro on the cover and says "male main character? Pass..." without researching it?

 

Absolutely.

 

I was going to also mention Stand by Me as another example of a story that was based on children, and in this case young boys.

[addiction21]

Fair enough.

By that same token, would it be a weak standard if a female sees a video game and sees a dudebro on the cover and says "male main character? Pass..." without researching it?

 

I think you both are beating at the same bush.
 

[Isichar]

You just have to accept that not everyone is gonna give Madoka a chance, man.

 

Their loss

 

I intentionally avoided talking about Madoka because I think the issue is the standard itself rather then the willingness to try any one specific story.

[Jorji Costava]

In response to the OP:

 

Speaking only for myself, I don't care if a game has a protagonist with a different race or sex from myself, but because video games tend to emphasize action and combat so much, I do prefer my protagonists to skew older than say, 16 years of age. It's one thing to have a child protagonist in Stand By Me or To Kill a Mockingbird, and quite another to have such a protagonist in a story where that character will have to engage in violent actions to progress.

 

For me, it's more about psychological realism than about the physical plausibility of a giant monster being killed by a group of 12 year olds with swords. I don't think it's a stretch to say that children in general aren't emotionally and psychologically well-equipped to deal with the horrors of war and violence. Looking at places like Congo or Burundi, we know what it's actually like when children are thrust into violent situations, and it's, well, about the most horrific thing you can imagine.

[Steelcan]

Relating to the protagonist, ability to see your self in the same position, etc....

I have nothing against female protagonists of games, I'm just not interested in playing them really

[Fast Jimmy]

Relating to the protagonist, ability to see your self in the same position, etc....
I have nothing against female protagonists of games, I'm just not interested in playing them really

Is it sexist to say this? Is it also sexist for women gamers to say they have no interest in playing as males?

Is it racist for a gamer to say they'd rather play their own ethnicity than someone else's, regardless of what that other ethnicity is?

I'm legitimately asking - I really don't feel like I know the answer.

[Isichar]

Is it sexist to say this? Is it also sexist for women gamers to say they have no interest in playing as males?

Is it racist for a gamer to say they'd rather play their own ethnicity than someone else's, regardless of what that other ethnicity is?

I'm legitimately asking - I really don't feel like I know the answer.

 

Nothing wrong with having a preference. Although I'd say being completely unwilling to watch a show, or play a game because of those factors is incredibly close minded. To judge a story solely based on it is downright ignorant though.

[SlottsMachine]

You just have to accept that not everyone is gonna give Madoka a chance, man.

 

And to be honest I don't think there is anything wrong with that. People can enjoy whatever fiction they like.  

[addiction21]

Is it sexist to say this? Is it also sexist for women gamers to say they have no interest in playing as males?

Is it racist for a gamer to say they'd rather play their own ethnicity than someone else's, regardless of what that other ethnicity is?

I'm legitimately asking - I really don't feel like I know the answer.

 

Is it one of those ism's? No I personally don't think it is.

 

My issue tend to be with the "I cant relate to it because its not me" crowd. How can a person relate to someone else if you are never willing to put yourself in their shoes?

 

As for my serious answer to the question asked. Its all about first impressions. Some will look at a anime see a young girl kicking ass and just write it off because that is how we as humans act. That does not mean they will get the same message being conveyed by a different medium. First impressions something entertainment lives and dies by.

[Isichar]

Is it one of those ism's? No I personally don't think it is.

 

My issue tend to be with the "I cant relate to it because its not me" crowd. How can a person relate to someone else if you are never willing to put yourself in their shoes?

 

As for my serious answer to the question asked. Its all about first impressions. Some will look at a anime see a young girl kicking ass and just write it off because that is how we as humans act. That does not mean they will get the same message being conveyed by a different medium. First impressions something entertainment lives and dies by.

 

This is true, and unfortunately even the best of stories can be written off due to a bad first impressions, which often can be the stories own fault. Many animes have an issue of realism and sexuality in regards to younger children, and to be clear I see that as a completely valid complaint, but there's a large difference between calling something unrealistic and having an issue solely because of the type of character. When we start assuming that any anime based on younger children is going to be unrealistic it applies an unfair standard regardless of whether it fits with the stories context or not.

 

"It has young girls" is NOT the same as saying "It has young girls which is not appropriate for the situation/story"

 

If I was playing a schoolyard game that had a 25 year old man in school with a bunch of 10 year old's then I'd have a problem with that because it doesn't fit. It has nothing to do with how well I relate to the character, it just doesn't fit. But that's not a standard I'd apply to any story that dealt with a 25 year old protagonist because that would just be stupid.

[mybudgee]

Racism is not dead. Unfortunately

[Isichar]

Racism is not dead. Unfortunately

 

It goes beyond race I think. The same standard could be applied to homosexuality and how some people absolutely hate that in a story. I still remember people asking Bioware to include an option in the ME games to 'turn off the gay' It comes down to people convincing themselves that a story MUST be X, or MUST have X type of protagonist in order for them to enjoy it or relate to the character.

 

Then again I don't find it particularly hard to relate and talk to people IRL that are twice my age or even half my age depending on the person, nor has sex or race been defining aspects (they can present barriers for sure, but those can usually be worked passed if both parties are willing) as to how I judge another person. What's important is the type of person they are. If I meet another young male nerd who grew up in the same place as me, then sure I'll probably be likely to relate to them better, but that isn't true 100% of the time and I think it would be foolish to build relationships based solely on that assumption.

 

Is it wrong that I'll relate to certain people better? No

Is it wrong for me to judge another person based on race/gender/age? Yes

[Lotion Soronarr]

Personally, as a general rule I don't mind younger character. Or older. Or any race/sex or whatever.

 

However, a character must fit well in the universe. A child character is OK as long as it's inclusion is there for a good reason and doesn't hurt the story.

So OP, your book example is excellent.

Anime...well, in a lot of it is completely unnecessary and kids are often put into positions and situations that destroy the Suspension of Disbelief.

I'm sorry, little kids swordfighting adults or being used in the military and all that crap is just...horrible.

 

 

That said, people have expectations nad prejudices. All of us.

We judge people based on a million factors every day, and it will never go away.